"2 RAF personnel killed in mid-air collision" today
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Such a waste and condolences go out to all the families concerned - RIP
It is accidents like this and others that should mandate all Light aircraft to have at least a mode A transponder fitted. I am not saying it will prevent accidents on its own, nor will it ever excuse maintaining the best lookout in open airspace that you can, but it would at least show you up to ATC.
As a Pilot who regularly flies in that airspace it is amazing how many primary only contacts get called to me on a traffic service from ATC that always seem to be single piston/gliders/microlights. I am fortunate that i fly an aircraft with TCAS - and it has saved me on more than one occasion in that airspace, but it only works if you are transponder equipped - remember it saves ME and YOU.
During my early career i regularly flew an aircraft without a transponder and without an ATC service - not now, having a transponder and using it will save your life.
I realise it costs to adopt these measures and the GA community has resisted any mandated regulation - but think of what it would potentially save..
Per Ardua Ad Astra
It is accidents like this and others that should mandate all Light aircraft to have at least a mode A transponder fitted. I am not saying it will prevent accidents on its own, nor will it ever excuse maintaining the best lookout in open airspace that you can, but it would at least show you up to ATC.
As a Pilot who regularly flies in that airspace it is amazing how many primary only contacts get called to me on a traffic service from ATC that always seem to be single piston/gliders/microlights. I am fortunate that i fly an aircraft with TCAS - and it has saved me on more than one occasion in that airspace, but it only works if you are transponder equipped - remember it saves ME and YOU.
During my early career i regularly flew an aircraft without a transponder and without an ATC service - not now, having a transponder and using it will save your life.
I realise it costs to adopt these measures and the GA community has resisted any mandated regulation - but think of what it would potentially save..
Per Ardua Ad Astra
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Whether traffic is called by ATC, reported by FLARM, TCAS, PCAS or even a pax - YOU still have to visually aqcuire it to be able to avoid it. Lots of posters in this thread commenting on white paint schemes, quite rightly in my view.
I don't know if Grob or other manufactureres have tried to follow suit for thier 'plastic fanstastics' but take a look at Photos: Cirrus SR-22 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net
Cirrus probably didn't work out how to put colour on their aircraft as one of their safety innovations, but I know I'd rather fly /be looking out for a coloured one rather than a white one.
The colour paint is relatively new technology for the Cirrus. From an 'avoiding mid-airs' I would like to see it used as widely and often as possible, especially considering how much 'Got To Be White' that we are collectively capable of putting in the sky on a nice day (powered and non-powered).
I don't know if Grob or other manufactureres have tried to follow suit for thier 'plastic fanstastics' but take a look at Photos: Cirrus SR-22 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net
Cirrus probably didn't work out how to put colour on their aircraft as one of their safety innovations, but I know I'd rather fly /be looking out for a coloured one rather than a white one.
The colour paint is relatively new technology for the Cirrus. From an 'avoiding mid-airs' I would like to see it used as widely and often as possible, especially considering how much 'Got To Be White' that we are collectively capable of putting in the sky on a nice day (powered and non-powered).
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Hi
The 'Cirrus' was a Schempp-Hirth Standard Cirrus, which would probably have looked a bit like this:
http://www.sailplanedirectory.com/images/stcirrus-2.jpg .
Cheers
Tim
The 'Cirrus' was a Schempp-Hirth Standard Cirrus, which would probably have looked a bit like this:
http://www.sailplanedirectory.com/images/stcirrus-2.jpg .
Cheers
Tim
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Both the Schempp-Hirth Cirrus, the Grob Tutor, and other "Got To Be Whites" types might be now be able to be made more conspicuous using current colour paint, such as that now being found on Cirrus Aircraft's SR20 and SR22's.
I hope GRP/Fibreglass manufacturers and users, e.g. AEF, Clubs, may show an interest in exploring the possibilities.
Cant seem to load it here, so uploaded photo of another great example colour scheme to
http://www.upintotheblueagain.*************/
or Google "2009 SR22 N877KC photo"
I hope GRP/Fibreglass manufacturers and users, e.g. AEF, Clubs, may show an interest in exploring the possibilities.
Cant seem to load it here, so uploaded photo of another great example colour scheme to
http://www.upintotheblueagain.*************/
or Google "2009 SR22 N877KC photo"
Last edited by execExpress; 18th Jun 2009 at 06:59.
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Firstly, condolences to all - the families first and foremost, but all the friends and colleages as well.
The thread answers a question I had - since the Tutors are G-registered the AAIB will do the report. Can I take it that the RAF will do their own investigation as well?
Someone said that Flarm in both aircraft would have prevented the accident. Probably, but since it is possible to come up with scenarios where it wouldn't have I'd say that statement was rash unless they were an eye witness or have heard a good 1st hand witness account.
However Flarm is a low-cost (in aviation terms!) technology which many glider pilots have been very impressed with, and the uptake of it among XC glider pilots is growing all the time. There are certainly glider pilots who believe it has saved them from an airmiss or a middair.
Why can't we paint gliders something other than white? Because that's what the maker says, and therefore doing so would among other things invalidate our insurance. If I feel the white top of a wing on a moderately sunny day it's cool, if I feel the red wingtip it's quite a bit warmer. Most gliders are not new by any means - the one involved on Sunday was built in 1972 - so any changes in paint / composite technology that would allow a paintscheme have come too late for them. It would be great if we could all have our gliders painted yellow & black, but sadly it's not possible for the composite ones. I do see an old wood/fabric glider painted yellow fairly often and agree it is much, much easier to see. However I'm not how much difference colour schemes make for the aircraft that's a threat - the one that's on a constant bearing and gradually getting bigger, but of course not moving relative to the background. Possibly it depends what the background is - white clouds? Blue sky? High ground?
A question of my own: do Tutors carry transponders? If so, do they always transpond?
Someone asked 'how does one eject from a glider'? Get rid of the canopy (each one has a specific way of doing this), release harness, climb out, pull parachute. I was told that below 2,000' agl it was rare to do this successfully but it has been done once that I know of from about 1,000', though the circumstances were bizarre. Apparently the 'chutes glider pilots (and presumbly Tutor pax) wear are packed to open and fill very quickly compared to sports 'chutes. I imagine jumping is adrenaline fuelled.
The thread answers a question I had - since the Tutors are G-registered the AAIB will do the report. Can I take it that the RAF will do their own investigation as well?
Someone said that Flarm in both aircraft would have prevented the accident. Probably, but since it is possible to come up with scenarios where it wouldn't have I'd say that statement was rash unless they were an eye witness or have heard a good 1st hand witness account.
However Flarm is a low-cost (in aviation terms!) technology which many glider pilots have been very impressed with, and the uptake of it among XC glider pilots is growing all the time. There are certainly glider pilots who believe it has saved them from an airmiss or a middair.
Why can't we paint gliders something other than white? Because that's what the maker says, and therefore doing so would among other things invalidate our insurance. If I feel the white top of a wing on a moderately sunny day it's cool, if I feel the red wingtip it's quite a bit warmer. Most gliders are not new by any means - the one involved on Sunday was built in 1972 - so any changes in paint / composite technology that would allow a paintscheme have come too late for them. It would be great if we could all have our gliders painted yellow & black, but sadly it's not possible for the composite ones. I do see an old wood/fabric glider painted yellow fairly often and agree it is much, much easier to see. However I'm not how much difference colour schemes make for the aircraft that's a threat - the one that's on a constant bearing and gradually getting bigger, but of course not moving relative to the background. Possibly it depends what the background is - white clouds? Blue sky? High ground?
A question of my own: do Tutors carry transponders? If so, do they always transpond?
Someone asked 'how does one eject from a glider'? Get rid of the canopy (each one has a specific way of doing this), release harness, climb out, pull parachute. I was told that below 2,000' agl it was rare to do this successfully but it has been done once that I know of from about 1,000', though the circumstances were bizarre. Apparently the 'chutes glider pilots (and presumbly Tutor pax) wear are packed to open and fill very quickly compared to sports 'chutes. I imagine jumping is adrenaline fuelled.
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Just to be clear - the Cirrus SR20 and SR22 are composites - and they can be painted with certain colour paints as per the examples above. The sooner more new-build composites come with colour the better.
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All flights departing the circuit should squak from take-off to just before rejoining the visual circuit, depending on local orders. So yes, for the duration of the flight.
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I can confirm from my experience as pax at 6AEF that yes, they do squawk as described from takeoff to rejoin (as indeed we at the civvy club on the airfield have to).
Tim
Tim
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I have many hours on G115s so I hope my comment is accepted in the spirit it's given.
My understanding is that AEF pilots and pax wear full kit, inc 'bone domes'. If true, this causes me some concern as the head room under the canopy isn't that generous and the "A" pillar is quite thick. Add to this the restriction that shoulder harness' could add and one's ability to maintain a good look out could be restricted.
Add in white and thin and one can imagine the Swiss cheese holes lining up.
Is it possible to fix dark vinyl bands on white a/c to increase conspicuity?
I believe it is vtal for the military's future that young people are given the oportunity o experience the thrill of flight so creating a safer environment in which tis experience can be delivered is v important.
Sir George Cayley
My understanding is that AEF pilots and pax wear full kit, inc 'bone domes'. If true, this causes me some concern as the head room under the canopy isn't that generous and the "A" pillar is quite thick. Add to this the restriction that shoulder harness' could add and one's ability to maintain a good look out could be restricted.
Add in white and thin and one can imagine the Swiss cheese holes lining up.
Is it possible to fix dark vinyl bands on white a/c to increase conspicuity?
I believe it is vtal for the military's future that young people are given the oportunity o experience the thrill of flight so creating a safer environment in which tis experience can be delivered is v important.
Sir George Cayley
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Two questions for those who might know
1) Assuming the glider was equipped with FLARM, should it alert off of a regular transponder like the tutor, or just off of other FLARM equipped aircraft?
2) We know that some composites can be safely painted, but does fiberglass have characteristics (unlike other composites) that make it unsafe or unwise to paint in contrasting colors?
1) Assuming the glider was equipped with FLARM, should it alert off of a regular transponder like the tutor, or just off of other FLARM equipped aircraft?
2) We know that some composites can be safely painted, but does fiberglass have characteristics (unlike other composites) that make it unsafe or unwise to paint in contrasting colors?
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I guess it doesn't really matter what we in here think or know about composites and painting/colouring them. The investigation will - I am sure - find the real answer for this particular composite, and will determine whether or not it can be coloured in any way to make the aircraft more conspicuous.