"2 RAF personnel killed in mid-air collision" today
Champagne anyone...?
Thread Starter
"2 RAF personnel killed in mid-air collision" today
BBC now reporting that the mid air between a glider and a light aircraft over Oxfordshire today has resulted in the deaths of two RAF "personnel". Assuming this is weekend UAS/cadet flying.
BBC MoD reporting it as a Tutor.
BBC MoD reporting it as a Tutor.
Red On, Green On
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TM - I know of a QFI and stude who are alive today because they were able to parachute to safety from a Bulldog in 1979 - they lost control underneath a fast-building Cb, I think.
Your comments on the two Tutor accidents that have not been fully investigated and reported on are not helpful.
Your comments on the two Tutor accidents that have not been fully investigated and reported on are not helpful.
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A very sad day for all and a stark reminder that "lookout" is not just something that we say on the brief.
Nothing that I say on this will comfort the next of kin of those lost but I of course echo the sentiments of those above.
The only comment that I would make is that I hope the findings of the Board of enquiry are reviewed and acted upon in a cool and calm way, not as a knee jerk over reaction to some political whim from the very top of the MoD.
Nothing that I say on this will comfort the next of kin of those lost but I of course echo the sentiments of those above.
The only comment that I would make is that I hope the findings of the Board of enquiry are reviewed and acted upon in a cool and calm way, not as a knee jerk over reaction to some political whim from the very top of the MoD.
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TM - I know of a QFI and stude who are alive today because they were able to parachute to safety from a Bulldog in 1979 - they lost control underneath a fast-building Cb, I think
Without prejudging what happened today, I do think Tiger_mate raises an interesting argument. Modern VFR light aircraft very rarely suffer structural failure or enter uncontrollable flight regimes - the most likely cause of being forced to bail out is in a mid-air collision. As we have seen recently, maybe better to rely on a good look out to avoid a mid-air than to rely on a parachute.
I occasionally hoof around in a Pitts for fun, and I have stopped strapping on a 'chute because it restricts my visibility too much and also as I am 6'4" I don't think I'd be able to extricate myself from the cockpit anyway.
TM you are a Tw*t, the parachute makes no difference to the ability to move around and lookout in a Tutor.
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Terrible news for the community. My thoughts are with the families and friends that are coming to terms with their losses tonight.
As an aside I never felt the parachute obstructed movement, and the all round visibility with the Tutor's big dome canopy is very good, even more so compared to most other light aircraft. Its so easy to fail to see another aircraft, especially in airspace as busy as ours: and even more so when the other is such a small aircraft with hard to see cross sections...
As an aside I never felt the parachute obstructed movement, and the all round visibility with the Tutor's big dome canopy is very good, even more so compared to most other light aircraft. Its so easy to fail to see another aircraft, especially in airspace as busy as ours: and even more so when the other is such a small aircraft with hard to see cross sections...
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Having flown the Tutor for 8 years or so, I have to say that I have never found the wearing of the parachute to have any effect on my ability to look out. Tightening the shoulder straps too tight DOES restrict my ability to move around to improve effective lookout. As the aircraft is a very effective "glider" however, I believe that - under most circumstances - I will have sufficient time to tighten my straps if I am going to be forced to land in a field for whatever reason. Therefore I do not feel the need to wear the shoulder straps "too tight".
However, in my opinion, the single most likely reason for Tutors and/or gliders not seeing each other sufficiently early is the fact that a very large number of gliders and all Tutors are WHITE, which is pretty much the worst colour for conspicuity in the conditions that we experience for the majority of our flying in this country.
I am told that it is "not possible" to change the colour of the Tutors, but I have not yet been given a reason for this that I can understand.
Changing "procedures" once more will - again in my opinion - have little or no effect in making the aircraft and/or gliders any more conspicuous.
Short of changing the colour, I have no answer to how we can reduce the likelihood of such occurrences.
I also agree yet again with all those that get peed off with people that make assumptions or throw blame or produce fail-safe solutions, before the Board and the CAA investigation teams have even convened.
So stop it!
However, in my opinion, the single most likely reason for Tutors and/or gliders not seeing each other sufficiently early is the fact that a very large number of gliders and all Tutors are WHITE, which is pretty much the worst colour for conspicuity in the conditions that we experience for the majority of our flying in this country.
I am told that it is "not possible" to change the colour of the Tutors, but I have not yet been given a reason for this that I can understand.
Changing "procedures" once more will - again in my opinion - have little or no effect in making the aircraft and/or gliders any more conspicuous.
Short of changing the colour, I have no answer to how we can reduce the likelihood of such occurrences.
I also agree yet again with all those that get peed off with people that make assumptions or throw blame or produce fail-safe solutions, before the Board and the CAA investigation teams have even convened.
So stop it!
Last edited by Wholigan; 14th Jun 2009 at 18:19.
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My understanding is that the all white finish for the Tutor (and the Vigilant) is to do with the structure of the airframe itself so it will not tolerate painting without some adverse effect on the strength and resilience. I'm no expert, I got that from an instructor at a VGS.
This is a technical remark in response to the post above and is not intended to be speculative.
This is a technical remark in response to the post above and is not intended to be speculative.
Tutor/Glider Mid Air
Guys,
Completeley agree with the posts about waiting for proper information instead of speculating. Lets not forget that 2 families have had some awful news this afternoon, think of those people please instead.
Completeley agree with the posts about waiting for proper information instead of speculating. Lets not forget that 2 families have had some awful news this afternoon, think of those people please instead.
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Composite airframes are damaged by heat absorbsion and are therefore generally white, not dark. The one silver lining is that the glider pilot was able to use his "pointless" parachute.
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As a civvy GA pilot, I would like to extend my condolences to the families and friends of those who lost their lives this afternoon.
This tragic event was all the more poignant as there was a thread running very recently on another forum concerning the possible use of FLARM by GA aircraft to reduce mid-air collision risks.
Very sad day indeed.
This tragic event was all the more poignant as there was a thread running very recently on another forum concerning the possible use of FLARM by GA aircraft to reduce mid-air collision risks.
Very sad day indeed.
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Is FLARM a ballistic parachute recovery gadget for the airframe itself? I've seen those and thought that they were a terrific idea and a way to make GA as accessible to the everyday man on the street as driving a high-end car. Popular in the USA I believe?
As for today's events, regardless of what or who these RAF personnel were, they were obviously doing something they enjoyed on a sunny day. Condolences to all who are affected by this, hopefully the thought that they were enjoying themselves offers some comfort.
As for today's events, regardless of what or who these RAF personnel were, they were obviously doing something they enjoyed on a sunny day. Condolences to all who are affected by this, hopefully the thought that they were enjoying themselves offers some comfort.
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It would be of interest to know if any radar service or ATSOCAS was accessed (if available of course). If not accessed was such a service available and if not available could the lack of it be a contributory factor?
I echo was has been said about not requiring knee jerk reactions, we need better services not more control.
I echo was has been said about not requiring knee jerk reactions, we need better services not more control.
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Just read the news on BBC website - v sad, another tragic event. Thoughts and prayers for all the families involved.
From own experience, Grob Tutors in Lincolnshire AIAA much harder to see than black Domnies, Hawks, Tucanos etc.
T67M Fireflies use composites and were originally painted white but soon changed to Yellow uppers and Black undersides. Quite similar to 1930s Avro Tutor scheme:
File:Avro 621 Tutor.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Dayglo patches used on motor gliders also helpful in a see and be seen environment.
Re-paint Grobs? Apart from additional weight (if not stripped and re-treated) and cost, the main paint issue is not so much a heat v structural problem on UK climate as to do with paint adhesion:
"Sophisticated composites are increasingly being used in aircraft. These are layered materials usually produced in casting moulds from plastic reinforced with carbon fibres and cured at relatively high
temperatures. Starting with fibre glass composites in secondary components, such as payload claddings and covers, carbon fibre composites are used in the main components such as aircraft wings, control elements and fuselage parts. These cast parts are contaminated by mould release agents which frequently contain
silicones. In order to ensure reliable painting these contaminants must be removed completely. Only then is it guaranteed that subsequent painting or bonding tasks will meet the highest standards of quality.
Activation brings about better
adhesion of paint:
Plastic surfaces in composites are often chemically inert since their long polymer chains have only low surface tension and possess no or only few functional groups. As a result of this they are difficult to paint adhesively. The ions and free electrons in the plasma beam cause nitrogen and oxygen to bond to the surface of the polymer so that functional groups such as –OH and –NH are produced. “In this way the plasma activates the surface by selective oxidation processes, discharges it and results in microfine cleaning. The rise in temperature of the plastic surfaces during treatment in this case amounts to ΔT < 20 °C. Activation of the surface takes place and this has a positive effect on adhesion”, declares Plasmatreat Managing Director Christian Buske.
In addition to cleaning, the reactive components in the plasma interact with the composite material and activate it so that it undergoes correct chemical bonding to the paint or coating system. This mechanism is the principal reason for the improved adhesion."
from http://www.plasmatreat.com/downloads...technology.pdf
From own experience, Grob Tutors in Lincolnshire AIAA much harder to see than black Domnies, Hawks, Tucanos etc.
T67M Fireflies use composites and were originally painted white but soon changed to Yellow uppers and Black undersides. Quite similar to 1930s Avro Tutor scheme:
File:Avro 621 Tutor.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Dayglo patches used on motor gliders also helpful in a see and be seen environment.
Re-paint Grobs? Apart from additional weight (if not stripped and re-treated) and cost, the main paint issue is not so much a heat v structural problem on UK climate as to do with paint adhesion:
"Sophisticated composites are increasingly being used in aircraft. These are layered materials usually produced in casting moulds from plastic reinforced with carbon fibres and cured at relatively high
temperatures. Starting with fibre glass composites in secondary components, such as payload claddings and covers, carbon fibre composites are used in the main components such as aircraft wings, control elements and fuselage parts. These cast parts are contaminated by mould release agents which frequently contain
silicones. In order to ensure reliable painting these contaminants must be removed completely. Only then is it guaranteed that subsequent painting or bonding tasks will meet the highest standards of quality.
Activation brings about better
adhesion of paint:
Plastic surfaces in composites are often chemically inert since their long polymer chains have only low surface tension and possess no or only few functional groups. As a result of this they are difficult to paint adhesively. The ions and free electrons in the plasma beam cause nitrogen and oxygen to bond to the surface of the polymer so that functional groups such as –OH and –NH are produced. “In this way the plasma activates the surface by selective oxidation processes, discharges it and results in microfine cleaning. The rise in temperature of the plastic surfaces during treatment in this case amounts to ΔT < 20 °C. Activation of the surface takes place and this has a positive effect on adhesion”, declares Plasmatreat Managing Director Christian Buske.
In addition to cleaning, the reactive components in the plasma interact with the composite material and activate it so that it undergoes correct chemical bonding to the paint or coating system. This mechanism is the principal reason for the improved adhesion."
from http://www.plasmatreat.com/downloads...technology.pdf