Nimrod MRA.4
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Shack37 asked
"By "the other clutter" do you mean anti submarine detection patrols and defence of our own nuke submarine fleet"
yes - although I'm not convinced the Senior Service ever thought the aircraft ever added much to their "defence"
As we only have 1 SSBM on patrol at any one time the number of airborne assets required to "protect " it will no doubt be limited
"By "the other clutter" do you mean anti submarine detection patrols and defence of our own nuke submarine fleet"
yes - although I'm not convinced the Senior Service ever thought the aircraft ever added much to their "defence"
As we only have 1 SSBM on patrol at any one time the number of airborne assets required to "protect " it will no doubt be limited
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As we only have 1 SSBM on patrol at any one time the number of airborne assets required to "protect " it will no doubt be limited
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I haven't found any who don't think that the near criminal level of buffoonery that was the chopping of the UK MPA fleet was anything but a disgrace.
I have, however, found many who wish it had been a dark blue asset as they believe it would've been far better protected. They may have a point.
Access to a LRMPA is missed, operationally speaking, every week of the year.
Don't believe it is otherwise.
I have, however, found many who wish it had been a dark blue asset as they believe it would've been far better protected. They may have a point.
Access to a LRMPA is missed, operationally speaking, every week of the year.
Don't believe it is otherwise.
Nutloose.
The cutting up of the Atlantic is hardly downsizing. As far as i am aware, the Germans had bought all the fully modernized P3C updates from the Dutch and therefore had improved their capability. Hardly the disgusting actions of our government and senior officers.
The cutting up of the Atlantic is hardly downsizing. As far as i am aware, the Germans had bought all the fully modernized P3C updates from the Dutch and therefore had improved their capability. Hardly the disgusting actions of our government and senior officers.
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Cannot argue with that, I could never understand if they were paid for to be completed, why they were not and simply ferried into storage, you then had an option at a later point to bring them into service, sadly I think they are now realising their haste will end up costing us money, not saving it....
They should be held accountable and sacked if it proves to be the case. MP or not.
They should be held accountable and sacked if it proves to be the case. MP or not.
Last edited by NutLoose; 5th Jun 2012 at 01:11.
Sun
Add to this the Do 228s and Islanders of Cobham plus the Cessna F406s of Direct Flight in Scotland - all working for DEFRA (late MAFF).
Looking at this I reckon that there is reasonable FW maritime fleet for peacetime purposes. Probably why the UK Govt aren't too bothered over the canx of MRA4 with SK 'pingers' and DD/FF filling the other gap. All in all, not perfect, but we are supposedly skint!
LJ
Good question. Current Govt (non-military) maritime aviation in the UK is provided as follows:
Aircraft Type Total Role Operator
AgustaWestland AW 139 x3 Search & Rescue CHC
Britten-Norman BN-2A-26 Islander x1 Surveillance AAT
Cessna 404 Titan II x1 Pollution Patrol AAT
Cessna F406 Caravan II x1/1 Pollution Patrol/Spraying AAT
Lockheed L-188 Electra x2 Pollution Spraying AAT
Sikorsky S-92 x4 Search & Rescue CHC
AAT = operated by Atlantic Air Transport Ltd under contract.
CHC = operated by CHC Scotia under contract.
Aircraft Type Total Role Operator
AgustaWestland AW 139 x3 Search & Rescue CHC
Britten-Norman BN-2A-26 Islander x1 Surveillance AAT
Cessna 404 Titan II x1 Pollution Patrol AAT
Cessna F406 Caravan II x1/1 Pollution Patrol/Spraying AAT
Lockheed L-188 Electra x2 Pollution Spraying AAT
Sikorsky S-92 x4 Search & Rescue CHC
AAT = operated by Atlantic Air Transport Ltd under contract.
CHC = operated by CHC Scotia under contract.
Looking at this I reckon that there is reasonable FW maritime fleet for peacetime purposes. Probably why the UK Govt aren't too bothered over the canx of MRA4 with SK 'pingers' and DD/FF filling the other gap. All in all, not perfect, but we are supposedly skint!
LJ
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Tell that to some poor souls 300 odd miles out to sea lost or sinking, nothing on that list can loiter long out there, coordinate a rescue, or drop life rafts in an emergency.... Oh and hunt for subs.
Nutloose
Being a pedant...
I suspect that Type 23, Type 42 and Type 45 ("DD/FF") would care to differ!
LJ
Being a pedant...
nothing on that list can loiter long out there, coordinate a rescue, or drop life rafts in an emergency.... Oh and hunt for subs
LJ
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Err.... handy if it just happens to be there, but If it isn't near it is simply another Carpatia. Not exactly a rapid response.
Last edited by NutLoose; 5th Jun 2012 at 09:48.
I guess the DD/FF would enjoy a few meals as they covered the 300miles in the example above in around 10 hours or so.
Of course, this time/distance equation presumes no pesky land in the way. Only 71% of the Earth is covered in the watery stuff whilst a good 100% of it is covered in air.
Of course, this time/distance equation presumes no pesky land in the way. Only 71% of the Earth is covered in the watery stuff whilst a good 100% of it is covered in air.
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Ahhh Leon, you poor soul - you have fallen for the old "don't worry, the DD's, FF's and helos can cover the gap left by Nimrod" line!
As has been said, fine if one of the few ships we have left just happen to be where they are needed when they are needed, but even in the past they were usually late to the party, arriving long after the Nimrod had been 'busy' for many hours, if not days!
For some ops this may well be acceptable, for others less so. For SAR this is definitely NOT acceptable, and neither is sending a VC10 out over the Atlantic to do SAR, as has happened relatively recently!
As has been said, fine if one of the few ships we have left just happen to be where they are needed when they are needed, but even in the past they were usually late to the party, arriving long after the Nimrod had been 'busy' for many hours, if not days!
For some ops this may well be acceptable, for others less so. For SAR this is definitely NOT acceptable, and neither is sending a VC10 out over the Atlantic to do SAR, as has happened relatively recently!
LJ
If you really believe that helo`s or FF/DD can cover the LRMPA role you are obviously ignorant of maritime operations.
Even if there was a glimmer of hope that a surface unit can head out to 30west in a time period that would have any meaning to the scenario, i would suggest the running cost of such a unit is far higher than that of a 10 man aircraft and therefore the main argument for disposing of the fleet is void.
If you really believe that helo`s or FF/DD can cover the LRMPA role you are obviously ignorant of maritime operations.
Even if there was a glimmer of hope that a surface unit can head out to 30west in a time period that would have any meaning to the scenario, i would suggest the running cost of such a unit is far higher than that of a 10 man aircraft and therefore the main argument for disposing of the fleet is void.
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Air police yes, but as it never made it to Squadron service one will never know, it does read as it was swept under the carpet, and a poster on here that was involved in the testing said it was capable and meeting it's design goals.
LJ
If you haven't read it, read post 1795... I would suggest the thank you to the Kipper fleet for saving his life makes sobering reading, I would suggest you would struggle to say follow me to an aircraft short of fuel and lost, let alone escort him to a safe landing with a boat!
LJ
If you haven't read it, read post 1795... I would suggest the thank you to the Kipper fleet for saving his life makes sobering reading, I would suggest you would struggle to say follow me to an aircraft short of fuel and lost, let alone escort him to a safe landing with a boat!
Last edited by NutLoose; 5th Jun 2012 at 15:44.
said it was capable and meeting it's design goals.
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This the MRA 4?
There are others more knowledgeable but I thought the Government had recently admitted the primary concern with MRA4 was airworthiness. The aeroplane may or may not have been superb, but there were too many gaps in the various audit trails so it was impossible to find anyone willing to sign up to the regulations having been met. I'm told it wasn't a simple case of meeting the regulations, because still serving senior officers had condoned them being ignored. What usually happens is MoD waits until they retire and quietly reverses the policy. I'm told this is what happened earlier in the Mull of Kintyre case when MoD and Government were willing to overturn but an Air Marshall threatened to resign. The imperative was to avoid that embarrassment, and if that meant covering up misdemeanors then so be it.
There are others more knowledgeable but I thought the Government had recently admitted the primary concern with MRA4 was airworthiness.
Heat, fuel and ignition source in the same zone without a fire detection system and means to put it out - that was a worry. Some idiot put a box critical to the flight controls at the back of the bomb bay - open the doors, one seagull and good afternoon. The fix for that was to limit the opening speed of the doors in flight! When the RAF engineers came up to do an audit of the work done so far they had to ask them to do it again due to discrepancies with the work, paperwork and oversignatures. We were asked to take delivery without a sonobuoy clearance - now wouldn't that be useful. Issues with controllability at certain weights, configurations and engine assymetry.
I used to watch the Requirements Manager, Capability Manager and 2 Group Desk Officers beat their heads against desks on an almost daily basis!
LJ