Nimrod MRA.4
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Quote from Sky News - A spokesman for the Coastguard said: "Falmouth coastguard were contacted by the French MRC. We assume they received a distress call from the Athena, by a satellite distress system.
So the limit of assistance from our EU allies is purely notification, no tasking of their SAR assets? Does this bode well for the future?
So the limit of assistance from our EU allies is purely notification, no tasking of their SAR assets? Does this bode well for the future?
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Allegedly there is a French Dassault Falcon flying top cover, not sure what endurance or comms fit he has. Listening to the MCA guy on TV, he is either reluctant to go into too much detail, or the standard of info he is getting from the scene is less than he is used to.
Hope all aboard make it ashore safe and sound.
Hope all aboard make it ashore safe and sound.
Join Date: Oct 2005
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A shameful, shameful day for all those involved in withdrawing LRMP from the UK "Area of Responsibility."
I can imagine the utter frustration and sense of impotence prevailing at Kinloss. Tragedy and farce are alive and well at the Whitehall Playhouse.
I can imagine the utter frustration and sense of impotence prevailing at Kinloss. Tragedy and farce are alive and well at the Whitehall Playhouse.
Join Date: Jan 2006
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Tourist :
Tourist, that is a ridiculous question to ask; I am sure everyone wishes the crew a safe return.
If everyone survives perfectly well without Nimrod, will you all promise to stop going on about the critical role of Nimrod in SAR?
Red On, Green On
Join Date: May 2004
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the UK "Area of Responsibility."
I'm struggling to understand how a non-UK vessel that's 230 nm SW of Lands End, and is in fact quite a bit closer to France becomes a UK responsibility?
FWIW it's due W of Lorient.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
How is this defined? Is it shown on a map?
HM Coastguard responds to Search and Rescue (SAR) incidents that occur within the UK SAR region. This region covers some 1.25 million square nautical miles of sea and over 10.5 thousand nautical miles of coastline. The eastern boundary of the UK SAR region joins those of Norway, Denmark, Germany, the Netherlands and Belgium in the North Sea, France in the English Channel. To the west the UK SAR region extends into the North Atlantic to meet those of Canada, Portugal, the Irish Republic and Iceland.
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If everyone survives perfectly well without Nimrod, will you all promise to stop going on about the critical role of Nimrod in SAR?
Today 10:12
Today 10:12
Join Date: Dec 2006
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Tourist
Things might have been very different had it been:-
1. Night
2. Rough Sea
3. In the middle of winter
4. Further west - ie. beyond the reach of even the French
5. Without other vessels in close proximity
Consideration also needs to be given to the potential SAR needs of the poor brave chaps (and chapesses!) in the SK should they have to ditch a long way from shore.
It is one thing for the govt to try and save money where there is duplication of capability, but when the one and only long range, specialised (and multi purpose) MPA asset is binned it is not so sensible a move.....
MB
Things might have been very different had it been:-
1. Night
2. Rough Sea
3. In the middle of winter
4. Further west - ie. beyond the reach of even the French
5. Without other vessels in close proximity
Consideration also needs to be given to the potential SAR needs of the poor brave chaps (and chapesses!) in the SK should they have to ditch a long way from shore.
It is one thing for the govt to try and save money where there is duplication of capability, but when the one and only long range, specialised (and multi purpose) MPA asset is binned it is not so sensible a move.....
MB
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Tourist
Your post shows that clearly have not the faintest idea or clue about SAR, Nmrod or much else I suspect. As Strato Q explains, this was every day (and night) bread-and-butter stuff, and we as a nation are no longer capable of providing this service.
It is indeed extremely good luck for those that took to the life rafts that another merchant ship was close by and intercepted the Mayday and was able to assist. If nothing else, an MPA in the vicinity could have done a very quick surface plot en-route and begun allerting those close by for help.
Good luck to all those involved and to HMG - take a good look at this. The UK has FAILED miserably in it's obligation to SAR coverage. Maybe this might elicit a responce from CAS, who knows!!??
Winco
Your post shows that clearly have not the faintest idea or clue about SAR, Nmrod or much else I suspect. As Strato Q explains, this was every day (and night) bread-and-butter stuff, and we as a nation are no longer capable of providing this service.
It is indeed extremely good luck for those that took to the life rafts that another merchant ship was close by and intercepted the Mayday and was able to assist. If nothing else, an MPA in the vicinity could have done a very quick surface plot en-route and begun allerting those close by for help.
Good luck to all those involved and to HMG - take a good look at this. The UK has FAILED miserably in it's obligation to SAR coverage. Maybe this might elicit a responce from CAS, who knows!!??
Winco
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Shadwell,
Being objective about it, when is that deemed to be a Military Task (MT) (yes I know it fell under MACA/MACP and yes I have read both the NSS and the SDSR Papers)
If there is a UK need for such Civ SAR support why doesn't the respective Gov't Dept pay for it (DTI, FCO, HO?)
................Oh yes, that's right no-one has any Money!
Being objective about it, when is that deemed to be a Military Task (MT) (yes I know it fell under MACA/MACP and yes I have read both the NSS and the SDSR Papers)
If there is a UK need for such Civ SAR support why doesn't the respective Gov't Dept pay for it (DTI, FCO, HO?)
................Oh yes, that's right no-one has any Money!
Join Date: Jun 2005
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Just leaving the SAR incident to one side for a second I was in London village t'other day and ran into somebody involved in the Christmas MARCOL this year who advised me it's on 15th Dec in the usual place...Could be a good one this year with whats happening...A good bash/whinge/bleat amongst serving and ex-serving maritime people may not take away the heartache a lot of you are experiencing but just for a few hours some beer and an ear may help a little...plus a little networking!
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"Maybe this might elicit a responce from CAS, who knows!!??"
Not until he's safely joined the House Of Ermine Vermin...
even then, I wouldnt bet the farm on it.
Not until he's safely joined the House Of Ermine Vermin...
even then, I wouldnt bet the farm on it.
If there is a UK need for such Civ SAR support why doesn't the respective Gov't Dept pay for it
Why is it this country expects essential services to be run as charity cases?
Oh of course the money gets spent on all the non essential welfare services for those that will not try to look after themselves, or those that decide to come here to be cared for by the State.
( And before I start a riot , I am not including those that are in real need of support)
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Winco.
Don't be a tosser.
I am an ex SAR pilot.
You?
Trying to justify the astonishing cost of Nimrod in terms of its use as a SAR asset is just asinine.
For the same money you could have a Seaking base every 500metres-ish along the Uk coast.
The loss of Nimrod is going to hit the UK military, but in terms of cost per life saved it is a total no-go.
If anyone on here thinks that todays little SAR is going to make anyone at the top think again then you are naive in the extreme.
Even if every person on board perished, and it happened every month, it would still be a miss-use of funds if SAR was the Nimrods reason for being, because the same money would save countless more lives in the NHS for example.
This would be true even if the Nimrod could actually "rescue" which it cannot. The boat had life-rafts and radios many of. They used them. Nimrod would be convenient, but certainly not essential.
In my years of SAR I can think of one time when a Nimrod made a difference. Very long ranger, found the fishing boat for us thus allowing us to use all our limited endurance for winching. Asking around the crewroom, most people are of the same opinion.
Justifying Nimrod for SAR is childishness.
Nimrod is justifiable for UK defence. Who could put a price on that?
SAR is merely a convenient ability.
Don't be a tosser.
I am an ex SAR pilot.
You?
Trying to justify the astonishing cost of Nimrod in terms of its use as a SAR asset is just asinine.
For the same money you could have a Seaking base every 500metres-ish along the Uk coast.
The loss of Nimrod is going to hit the UK military, but in terms of cost per life saved it is a total no-go.
If anyone on here thinks that todays little SAR is going to make anyone at the top think again then you are naive in the extreme.
Even if every person on board perished, and it happened every month, it would still be a miss-use of funds if SAR was the Nimrods reason for being, because the same money would save countless more lives in the NHS for example.
This would be true even if the Nimrod could actually "rescue" which it cannot. The boat had life-rafts and radios many of. They used them. Nimrod would be convenient, but certainly not essential.
In my years of SAR I can think of one time when a Nimrod made a difference. Very long ranger, found the fishing boat for us thus allowing us to use all our limited endurance for winching. Asking around the crewroom, most people are of the same opinion.
Justifying Nimrod for SAR is childishness.
Nimrod is justifiable for UK defence. Who could put a price on that?
SAR is merely a convenient ability.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Exactly. The Nimrod could search whereas the SK has a much more limited capability at range or where the search area is large.
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Yes, but how often does it happen?
Not very often, and if it is beyond 200nm then what?
Better spend the money on a airborne refueling helicopter capability. At least once a helicopter gets there it can actually do something!
This dropping liferafts b@llocks is just that. Ships carry liferafts. Helicopters carry liferafts.
But lets humour the scenario where for some reason the survivors have abandoned their own liferafts and require some more. (Perhaps they were unhappy with the colour of their own ones?)
Once you have dropped your liferaft a safe distance from the survivors, then what?
Do you really expect someone in a storm to catch a liferaft that has been dropped near them. Have you ever done sea drills?
Please remember just how much has been spent on Nimrods over the years.
People who say that you can't put a price on life have a very limited understanding of reality. I am willing to bet that the Nimrod's £ to lives saved through SAR ratio is the worst in the history of emergency services.
Don't try to justify Nimrod as a SAR asset. It just won't wash with the grown ups.
Not very often, and if it is beyond 200nm then what?
Better spend the money on a airborne refueling helicopter capability. At least once a helicopter gets there it can actually do something!
This dropping liferafts b@llocks is just that. Ships carry liferafts. Helicopters carry liferafts.
But lets humour the scenario where for some reason the survivors have abandoned their own liferafts and require some more. (Perhaps they were unhappy with the colour of their own ones?)
Once you have dropped your liferaft a safe distance from the survivors, then what?
Do you really expect someone in a storm to catch a liferaft that has been dropped near them. Have you ever done sea drills?
Please remember just how much has been spent on Nimrods over the years.
People who say that you can't put a price on life have a very limited understanding of reality. I am willing to bet that the Nimrod's £ to lives saved through SAR ratio is the worst in the history of emergency services.
Don't try to justify Nimrod as a SAR asset. It just won't wash with the grown ups.
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If the MR.2 was retired early with the resultant "capability gap" until the MRa.4 came into use was there no temporary plan in place for long range SAR? If the line has been that the Herc can easily take over the task was it not put into place until the MRA.4 came online or was thinking happy thoughts the order of the day?
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Liferafts leak.
Civvie aircraft liferafts should not even go by the name of liferaft.
Not all survivors are in stormy conditions.
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SAR cover does not require a Nimrod, it's just that until recently we had Nimrods and they were very good at it.
Top cover to helos in the SWAPPS was quite common - the Nimrod would search the area, conn the helo onto the target so no time was lost getting to the winch operation, and provide the helo itself with a bit of extra security flying so far from land.
Yes, a helo can winch when a Nimrod cannot - which makes a difference on those occasions where the survivors can all fit into the helo. (Might have been difficult today).
No, people don't decide they prefer the colour of a Nimrod dropped dinghy, sometimes dinghies are damaged, sometimes they cannot be successfully launched, sometimes - in simple terms - whatever survival aids are provided by the ship prove insufficient..... a foolish point you made there.
No, the average SAR chopper won't reach 30W (check the map) - and when incidents occur far from land Nimrods would do a surface plot and vector the nearest shipping to the casualty. They did this a LOT of times, people were rescued by ships that were often (usually, in my experience) unaware of the need to divert to help prior to being called by the Nimrod. Our area of responsibility extends to 30W - today the MPA job in OUR area was performed by a French aircraft.
The MPA SAR role does NOT need to be performed by a Nimrod, but it does need to be performed by some fixed wing asset, which we patently do not have or it would have been used.
As for £ per life saved, thank Christ you aren't running things, it'd be cheaper to just let everyone drown, after all.
Dave
Top cover to helos in the SWAPPS was quite common - the Nimrod would search the area, conn the helo onto the target so no time was lost getting to the winch operation, and provide the helo itself with a bit of extra security flying so far from land.
Yes, a helo can winch when a Nimrod cannot - which makes a difference on those occasions where the survivors can all fit into the helo. (Might have been difficult today).
No, people don't decide they prefer the colour of a Nimrod dropped dinghy, sometimes dinghies are damaged, sometimes they cannot be successfully launched, sometimes - in simple terms - whatever survival aids are provided by the ship prove insufficient..... a foolish point you made there.
No, the average SAR chopper won't reach 30W (check the map) - and when incidents occur far from land Nimrods would do a surface plot and vector the nearest shipping to the casualty. They did this a LOT of times, people were rescued by ships that were often (usually, in my experience) unaware of the need to divert to help prior to being called by the Nimrod. Our area of responsibility extends to 30W - today the MPA job in OUR area was performed by a French aircraft.
The MPA SAR role does NOT need to be performed by a Nimrod, but it does need to be performed by some fixed wing asset, which we patently do not have or it would have been used.
As for £ per life saved, thank Christ you aren't running things, it'd be cheaper to just let everyone drown, after all.
Dave