Nimrod MRA.4
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iRaven
1 out of 4 isn't bad in your books then?
If you need any help it isn't yet 1, 2 or 4!
1. Works
2. Is safe
3. Is interoperable with our main Atlantic peer (the US)
4. Is affordable
2. Is safe
3. Is interoperable with our main Atlantic peer (the US)
4. Is affordable
If you need any help it isn't yet 1, 2 or 4!
QTRZ
I think you'd be surprised the advances that P-8 has made in the past 12 months. If you go back 2-3 years ago then I would have agreed with you.
The P-8 has caught up and overtaken the MRA4 program in recent months (thanks mostly to the use of MRA4 kit):
"A U.S. Navy Boeing P-8A Poseidon launched sonobuoys for the first time on Oct. 15 2010, Naval Air Systems Command announced Thursday.
The P-8A launched six sonobuoys in three low altitude launches. Each Poseidon can carry 120 sonobuoys (50 percent more than the P-3 it is replacing) and has a rotary launch system that uses three launchers with the capacity to hold 10 sonobuoys each and launch single and multiple shots.
The 737-based Poseidon is a long-range anti-submarine warfare, anti-surface warfare, intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance aircraft. A sonobuoy is a sonar device used to track submarines.
The Navy has been testing three Poseidon aircraft at Naval Air Station Patuxent River, Md., since this summer. The aircraft is scheduled to enter operations in 2013"
I believe at one point there was talk of the MRA4 being delivered without a sonarbuoy capability?
B Word
Kind of...
iRaven
I think you'd be surprised the advances that P-8 has made in the past 12 months. If you go back 2-3 years ago then I would have agreed with you.
The P-8 has caught up and overtaken the MRA4 program in recent months (thanks mostly to the use of MRA4 kit):
"A U.S. Navy Boeing P-8A Poseidon launched sonobuoys for the first time on Oct. 15 2010, Naval Air Systems Command announced Thursday.
The P-8A launched six sonobuoys in three low altitude launches. Each Poseidon can carry 120 sonobuoys (50 percent more than the P-3 it is replacing) and has a rotary launch system that uses three launchers with the capacity to hold 10 sonobuoys each and launch single and multiple shots.
The 737-based Poseidon is a long-range anti-submarine warfare, anti-surface warfare, intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance aircraft. A sonobuoy is a sonar device used to track submarines.
The Navy has been testing three Poseidon aircraft at Naval Air Station Patuxent River, Md., since this summer. The aircraft is scheduled to enter operations in 2013"
I believe at one point there was talk of the MRA4 being delivered without a sonarbuoy capability?
B Word
Kind of...
iRaven
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The overwhelming argument should be about the unsupportable loss of LRMP capability.
Much as I love the Nimrod, the loss of an aircraft type is of less consequence.
Much as I love the Nimrod, the loss of an aircraft type is of less consequence.
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This is madness
IRaven,
Thanks for the steer pal, I read the defence plan for 2010-14 and take what you said as an update, so thank you. Out of interest, where does it state these are the new Military Tasks?
However, I stand by my previous with respect to MT 09 aims and objectives as it pertains to the MR Nimrod (past and present). However, if you prefer to talk about the latest stated objectives that you post, I will concede that the MRA4 will now fulfil 100% of them and not the approx 75% of the MR2. Furthermore, the MRA4, while not the finished article, does work, is as safe as any new aircraft can be and would be interoperable because we have professional aircrew who will ensure this is the case. Lets not also forget the MRA4 has already been paid for at great expense (don't know the cost of 9 P-8s but guess they are not free) and if you knew about the current significant issues with the P8, had spent anytime in the UK MPA community and realised the true consequences of the SDSR solution, then I would be alarmed if you held your stated viewpoint.....but I could be missing something.
DFM
Thanks for the steer pal, I read the defence plan for 2010-14 and take what you said as an update, so thank you. Out of interest, where does it state these are the new Military Tasks?
However, I stand by my previous with respect to MT 09 aims and objectives as it pertains to the MR Nimrod (past and present). However, if you prefer to talk about the latest stated objectives that you post, I will concede that the MRA4 will now fulfil 100% of them and not the approx 75% of the MR2. Furthermore, the MRA4, while not the finished article, does work, is as safe as any new aircraft can be and would be interoperable because we have professional aircrew who will ensure this is the case. Lets not also forget the MRA4 has already been paid for at great expense (don't know the cost of 9 P-8s but guess they are not free) and if you knew about the current significant issues with the P8, had spent anytime in the UK MPA community and realised the true consequences of the SDSR solution, then I would be alarmed if you held your stated viewpoint.....but I could be missing something.
DFM
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Modern Elmo, I don't get your point. Yes the Nimrods were all different sizes, but it was sorted out. There is no Airbus peer to the P-8 AFAIK just a few drawings which would be 10 years from service today.
iRaven, not sure those are the MT in SDSR 2010 and RN assets are spread extremely thinly before this week. P-8 has solved many issues recently some by removing the requirement others by throwing lots of cash at them. I'm glad you pointed out it carries less buoys and has less launchers though as that is significant with the extra endurance. The other comment about MRA4 and buoys is just rubbish. You do seem very anti Maritime/Nimrods/Kinloss, if so that's not a dig not everyone loves us, but if not you might want to consider your post slightly more as the news is still a bit raw up here.
B Word, the air environment you describe would only last a day or two in a full on campaign where we would have to be part of an Alliance (most probably with the US) and also not part of the NSC plan. MRA4 has better DASS than many other platforms; I understand the MR2 was the furthest forward RAF aircraft during GW2.
IMHO we could do without half the Typhoon and GR4 force for now, much more than an LRMPA that has a role now every day, MR2 gap was a significant risk and we were trying to bring in as much capability ASAP before IOC.
Once more there is no RPAS/UAS solution, only very poor substitutes for limited parts of the mission. This leads on to Scavenger, it looks like it was only made up in June and is being touted as the replacement of all the lost capabilities, shades of 1957 Defence White Paper? (just replace missile with RPAS/UAS)
iRaven, not sure those are the MT in SDSR 2010 and RN assets are spread extremely thinly before this week. P-8 has solved many issues recently some by removing the requirement others by throwing lots of cash at them. I'm glad you pointed out it carries less buoys and has less launchers though as that is significant with the extra endurance. The other comment about MRA4 and buoys is just rubbish. You do seem very anti Maritime/Nimrods/Kinloss, if so that's not a dig not everyone loves us, but if not you might want to consider your post slightly more as the news is still a bit raw up here.
B Word, the air environment you describe would only last a day or two in a full on campaign where we would have to be part of an Alliance (most probably with the US) and also not part of the NSC plan. MRA4 has better DASS than many other platforms; I understand the MR2 was the furthest forward RAF aircraft during GW2.
IMHO we could do without half the Typhoon and GR4 force for now, much more than an LRMPA that has a role now every day, MR2 gap was a significant risk and we were trying to bring in as much capability ASAP before IOC.
Once more there is no RPAS/UAS solution, only very poor substitutes for limited parts of the mission. This leads on to Scavenger, it looks like it was only made up in June and is being touted as the replacement of all the lost capabilities, shades of 1957 Defence White Paper? (just replace missile with RPAS/UAS)
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Surely (don't call me shirley) the point now...
Is that the UK needs an MPA - for better or for worse 'call me Dave' has decided that MRA4 is a non-starter... the public consensus is that Nimrod was a self igniting 1940's airliner, so Dave is not going to be overwhelmed by public opinion - marches in Nairn and Lossie are not going to affect a political party that never got voted in locally anyway. That CAS ought to resign, but clearly isn't going to , is immaterial. (In the old days we had a sort of drinking song that went 'Jump, you ****** jump...' but I suspect the average senior ossifer considers he is able to do far more good by staying in, the perks and pay being largely irrelevant...)
So, the sensible money has surely to be on the P-8? Sod closing Kinloss. buy a dozen P-8's (after all, India is buying them and we do subsidise India, last I noticed, yeah?) Now, take the existing Nimrod expertise and see what we can do with a P-8 to amaze your average spam....***
From the P-8 literature it looks a decent aircraft - not as good as MRA4 perhaps, but definitely something I and my previous colleagues could have got our teeeth into - so let's buy a dozen, base then at EGQK and keep the tradition of excellence going in an area of national priority...even if Dave doesn't know his a**e from his elbow.
Dave
*** Before I get accused of Xenophobia, I like Spams and spend several weeks a year with them these days - most of my bestest friends are spams these days.
Also, I would like to point out (spellinge alert) that I have spelldid most if not all of my worms correctly - unlike everyone 'towing' rather than 'toeing' the line (it's a boxing reference, not a bloody tanker). If I can be ar**d I'll doubtless correct some other common grammatical error tomorrow, me being a teacher an all.
NB - edited at least 3 times, depsite the previous para, for spleinge
Is that the UK needs an MPA - for better or for worse 'call me Dave' has decided that MRA4 is a non-starter... the public consensus is that Nimrod was a self igniting 1940's airliner, so Dave is not going to be overwhelmed by public opinion - marches in Nairn and Lossie are not going to affect a political party that never got voted in locally anyway. That CAS ought to resign, but clearly isn't going to , is immaterial. (In the old days we had a sort of drinking song that went 'Jump, you ****** jump...' but I suspect the average senior ossifer considers he is able to do far more good by staying in, the perks and pay being largely irrelevant...)
So, the sensible money has surely to be on the P-8? Sod closing Kinloss. buy a dozen P-8's (after all, India is buying them and we do subsidise India, last I noticed, yeah?) Now, take the existing Nimrod expertise and see what we can do with a P-8 to amaze your average spam....***
From the P-8 literature it looks a decent aircraft - not as good as MRA4 perhaps, but definitely something I and my previous colleagues could have got our teeeth into - so let's buy a dozen, base then at EGQK and keep the tradition of excellence going in an area of national priority...even if Dave doesn't know his a**e from his elbow.
Dave
*** Before I get accused of Xenophobia, I like Spams and spend several weeks a year with them these days - most of my bestest friends are spams these days.
Also, I would like to point out (spellinge alert) that I have spelldid most if not all of my worms correctly - unlike everyone 'towing' rather than 'toeing' the line (it's a boxing reference, not a bloody tanker). If I can be ar**d I'll doubtless correct some other common grammatical error tomorrow, me being a teacher an all.
NB - edited at least 3 times, depsite the previous para, for spleinge
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P8 Price
Evening all,
brand new to this stuff, but have felt the need to join in following last Tuesday's debacle;
bit of insight (albeit Wikepedia) P8's for India quoted as either $220m or $280m per copy.
brand new to this stuff, but have felt the need to join in following last Tuesday's debacle;
bit of insight (albeit Wikepedia) P8's for India quoted as either $220m or $280m per copy.
Ivan Rogov
I apologise for stinging raw wounds, that is not my intent. I am not anti MPA or KIS; but I am most certainly anti MRA4!
I do not believe that MR2 led the fighter sweep for GW2 as Coallition Fighters had established air supremacy in the Northern and Southern Watch no-fly zones for the previous 11 years! I do not believe that we would ever want to put a High Value Asset (HVA) such as a MPA into a high threat AD environment without OCA assets (ie. Fighter sweeps). I know you've been intercepted in peacetime by Soviet/Russian fighters whilst watching their fleets but no hostilities had been declared.
On the subject of MAD, I believe the Indian P8s have it fitted but the USN have removed it - I suspect they have something else up their sleeve!
iRaven
I apologise for stinging raw wounds, that is not my intent. I am not anti MPA or KIS; but I am most certainly anti MRA4!
I do not believe that MR2 led the fighter sweep for GW2 as Coallition Fighters had established air supremacy in the Northern and Southern Watch no-fly zones for the previous 11 years! I do not believe that we would ever want to put a High Value Asset (HVA) such as a MPA into a high threat AD environment without OCA assets (ie. Fighter sweeps). I know you've been intercepted in peacetime by Soviet/Russian fighters whilst watching their fleets but no hostilities had been declared.
On the subject of MAD, I believe the Indian P8s have it fitted but the USN have removed it - I suspect they have something else up their sleeve!
iRaven
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
I believe MAD is a two-edged sword. If you are close enough to touch then you are close enough to be heard.
I understand the MR2 was the furthest forward RAF aircraft during GW2.
B Word, the air environment you describe would only last a day or two in a full on campaign
Davejb
I agree with your viewpoint.
Ivan Rogov
A good DAS is not going to save you from 30mm HE from a fighter's cannon, plus most DAS offer only a level of protection not guaranteed protection. That's a big gamble with a £500M aircraft! So like it or not you will need protection from friendly fighters.
Trust me, I'm an Air Defender ;-)
LJ
I agree with your viewpoint.
Ivan Rogov
A good DAS is not going to save you from 30mm HE from a fighter's cannon, plus most DAS offer only a level of protection not guaranteed protection. That's a big gamble with a £500M aircraft! So like it or not you will need protection from friendly fighters.
Trust me, I'm an Air Defender ;-)
LJ
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PN,
very restrained of you, old chap, cracking on you might have just heard a whisper etc?
Of course back in the 1980's or so the 'Red Storm Rising' computer game had Stinger masts on subs...
As an ex Dry op I have to say that I always thought a half mile long pole would have been a better fit (stuck to the nose, obviously), inasmuch as you could have a simple switch that dropped a Mk46 (or Stingray, later on - or, dammit, a 44 if we're really getting nostalgic)... when the pole hits something the torpedo drops - as the Meerkat ads have it 'squeak, simples'.
Remember that old photo of the nasty sov with the mocked up missles on the sail - part of the ongoing 'us v them boredom and spoof war' that saw a few humorous highlights along the way?
(One helo chap told me about a bottomless plastic dustbin fitted with tinsel etc they had 'aimed' at a Malin Head AGI, once over, then ditched it some distance away so they could enjoy watching the AGI steam over to recover this new sensor that had fallen off the helo....)
It's probably about time for a Spud Murphy thread, as I fear it's all Maritime will have to contribute to Pprune for some time to come. Oddly enough a P-3 is STILL flying over my house regularly this evening, so at least someone is using Kinloss as a maritime base.
Dave
L-J: Yes, the Spams ARE nicer than most people make out, aren't they?
Ivan: I wouldnn't ever want to be on an airliner in front of my air superiority type cover, no matter how good my defensive suite might be. Let's not get carried away now <g>
(And anyone who ever read the Nimrod self defence manual would know how splendid our defensive tactics might be... I speak as an ex- Nim defensive suite T-CAT by the way).
very restrained of you, old chap, cracking on you might have just heard a whisper etc?
Of course back in the 1980's or so the 'Red Storm Rising' computer game had Stinger masts on subs...
As an ex Dry op I have to say that I always thought a half mile long pole would have been a better fit (stuck to the nose, obviously), inasmuch as you could have a simple switch that dropped a Mk46 (or Stingray, later on - or, dammit, a 44 if we're really getting nostalgic)... when the pole hits something the torpedo drops - as the Meerkat ads have it 'squeak, simples'.
Remember that old photo of the nasty sov with the mocked up missles on the sail - part of the ongoing 'us v them boredom and spoof war' that saw a few humorous highlights along the way?
(One helo chap told me about a bottomless plastic dustbin fitted with tinsel etc they had 'aimed' at a Malin Head AGI, once over, then ditched it some distance away so they could enjoy watching the AGI steam over to recover this new sensor that had fallen off the helo....)
It's probably about time for a Spud Murphy thread, as I fear it's all Maritime will have to contribute to Pprune for some time to come. Oddly enough a P-3 is STILL flying over my house regularly this evening, so at least someone is using Kinloss as a maritime base.
Dave
L-J: Yes, the Spams ARE nicer than most people make out, aren't they?
Ivan: I wouldnn't ever want to be on an airliner in front of my air superiority type cover, no matter how good my defensive suite might be. Let's not get carried away now <g>
(And anyone who ever read the Nimrod self defence manual would know how splendid our defensive tactics might be... I speak as an ex- Nim defensive suite T-CAT by the way).
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This is Madness
IRaven,
You are quoting or summising from the open press, it is clear you do not know the real story.......analogy, the Daily Star is always right.
Pontius,
....................... no comment.
DFM
You are quoting or summising from the open press, it is clear you do not know the real story.......analogy, the Daily Star is always right.
Pontius,
....................... no comment.
DFM
