Nimrod MRA.4

[nav attacking]

Certainly heard a P3 taking off yesterday, maybe off to show that they can still defend their side of all of the sub Atlantic internet cabling on which our economies depend. Found this open document on the internet,
http://www.iscpc.org/publications/Ab...PDF_Format.pdf
and I thought Cyber Warfare was one of the priorities of this Government!

Wkipedia also has some interesting articles:
Submarine communications cable - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

RAF MRT won't be needed up here if Lossie closes!! More of a problem is relocating the RCC and all of its hitec comms setup.

Oops just had someone knocking on my door...

[lightbob]

It didn't take long for this: NIMROD MRA4 on eBay (end time 30-Oct-10 20:25:17 BST)

[Mad_Mark]

Enginesuck, your right about the mra4 continuing to be built.

And why not? We have already paid BAES to do the job so why should they not carry on and do what they have been paid to do, rather than fork out the cost of redundancies to the workforce?

This is one of the most idiotic decisions I have ever seen ANY Government make! Don't they know (weren't they briefed?) that the first Tier 1 item in the National Security Strategy Priority Risks is something that Nimrod has been doing for a long, long time (both over water and over land) and would have been doing in the future??? The 4th Tier 1 item is something that Nimrod has played a big part in the past and would have been ideal for in the future! The same goes for the 2nd and 3rd Tier 2 items! Tier 3, item 1 - trained for that; items 2 & 3 - been there, done that; item 5 - trained for that; item 6 - done that; item 7 - you guessed it, a role for Nimrod!!! Add to all these that we, as a nation, have an international commitment to provide SAR over the North Atlantic out to 30W and that we need to protect our Strategic Nuclear Deterrent from possible foe. Un-f**king-believable decision.

The Kipper Fleet have spent decades building their incredible knowledge (in more fields than purely ASW or even maritime), a knowledge that will be eroded and then lost if the decision is not reversed bloody quickly!

To cancel a project that would fulfil most of the NSS Priority Risks and international SAR commitments, that would be able to protect our 'bombers', that would have been a step-change in capability, that IS already paid for, a capability that will cost s#it load more to bring back (because believe me, we DO need a long range MPA and so at some point we WILL need to pay a s#it load to regain that capability) simply shows that the present Prime Minister and Government are totally incompetent.


MadMark!!!

Thanks to Cameron I am now an EX-lifelong Tory voter!!!

[Flarkey]

Mad mark,

I was thinking the same thing. Truly multirole, versatile, and covers many of the priorities that were det out in the NSC's report and the SDSR itself (particularly ISTAR and the support of the deterrent.)

Do you think any of "Their Airships" have the balls to speak to CMD or The Doctor and try and get the decision reveresed?

[Jayand]

I don't know if it is wishful thinking or a genuine belief by some when they say "decision reversed" about the MRA4 but I have heard it a bit in the last few days.
It's very sad and incredibly difficult for all those involved but the decision will NOT be reversed.
The decision that they came to has been thought over for months and they will have heard all the top level arguments for keeping it from some very articulate, intelligent and respected people.
They chose to ignore that advice and we are where we are.

[Lima Juliet]

Jayand

I agree, there is no way the decision will be reversed any time soon - 99.99% never. The RAF need to get on with sorting the mess out for those people left behind from this sorry mess, and that is what I believe Manning is doing right now. The big issue is that because this came as a shock to most people at all levels, as the decision was only finally approved late last week; no forward planning has happened.

I'm still hopeful that we will keep our best people and use them in new areas ( current UORs, increased buy in helos, Project SCAVENGER, etc...). The bad thing for those that thought they would stay at Kinloss for the next 30 years is, it isn't going to happen now. But hey, no one in the RAF is safe from mobility unless they want Preferential Treatment for one tour because of a compassionate case - otherwise it is shape up and ship out to the next posting.

SFO

I hear your points fella, but I'm also hearing all sorts of mini-horror stories that add up to a big mess that I believe MoD finally lost faith in. That is why I believe your new shiny jet was taken away from you. "Throwing good money after bad" comes to mind with little faith that it wouldn't be more and more each year, including the notion that support costs have already spiralled way above the original plan. Sadly, I think the "Cash Cow" has finally been milked dry.

Why is the company still working on it? well here's a conspiracy theory: Seeing as there are believed to be so many issues with the aircraft, maybe the company are trying to rectify them prior to the big meeting with MoD about the "unfit for purpose" debate - or maybe I am just too suspicious?

LJ

[F3sRBest]

Sadly, I think the "Cash Cow" has finally been milked dry.

That ship sailed MANY years ago...

[Midlifec]

Anyone for a Scottish National Air Force- Nimrods, Harriers and Airfields available at a knock down force..................

[RumPunch]

I cannot remember which newspaper I seen it in yesterday, the MOD has to pay BAE a termination fee now for cancelling the Nimrod Programme. I shall endevour to find it but it just gets better and better.

[F3sRBest]

I cannot remember which newspaper I seen it in yesterday, the MOD has to pay BAE a termination fee now for cancelling the Nimrod Programme. I shall endevour to find it but it just gets better and better.

Not exactly unusual contractiong practice! What else do you expect?

[canard68]

Dont keep fretin lads.T Bungling Baron from Avros will soon sort this small problem out. He will send a couple of t lads from contracts dept with a couple of bulging black briefcases and oil t wheels int ministry and deal will be on again.

[Strato Q]

I agree, there is no way the decision will be reversed any time soon - 99.99% never.

During CAS's visit to Kinloss on Weds he does not seem to agree with you, stating that this is a capability that will need replacing in the long term and that we have been driven to this position by the treasury and not by any profound new thinking that deems us not to need an MPA. Although he did categorically say it will not be an MRA4 and it probably would be unmanned.

[Sir George Cayley]

OK so I'm a civvy type who should know better than to pop up here with a darn fool questionette

But. DefenceWeb today states

It will also have strategic surveillance and intelligence platforms as part of our broader ISTAR capability, including: E-3D Sentry AWACS (Airborne Warning and Control System) to provide airborne command, control and surveillance; Rivet Joint signals intelligence aircraft to provide independent strategic intelligence gathering; and a range of remotely piloted air systems.

Is there absolutely no chance that MRA4's couldn't be reconfigured as a SIGINT platform so negating the requirement to buy old Boeings for Rivet Joint?

I'm not going to duck, or don a flack jacket. You lot do brave daily - I'm sure I can do it for an evening.

Sir George Cayley

[Willard Whyte]

Could BAES do it for less than the ~$Bn 3 x RJ is supposed to be costing us though?

[betty swallox]

Given the UTTER crass decisions about MRA4 on Tuesday, and now Astute grounded, is it just me, or does anyone else out the there, thinking that our adverseries, be they Cold War or otherwise, MUST be laughing their socks off at "Great" Britain. I think so...

[Jayand]

Just tell everyone that they have been converted to unmanned, but rather sneakily have them crewed as before but let all the crews wear those dark black flying suits and wear those snazzy black tapes across their eyes.
Everyone will fall for it.

[Tallsar]

There has been debate and progress to long range UAVs for LRMP for some time now.....but goodness knows the lack of cash alone, never mind the technology risk, means it will be a while yet before anything comes close to what an MRA4 would have delivered in toto - no matter which task you look at.

I am aghast that when the pressure was on there wasn't a minimalist back-stop put forward to at least preserve the potential capability (Trenchard style) until money was more available. The obvious possibility was to base 2 MRA4s at Waddington (only one available to fly daily at any time) with the rest out into long term storage for at least 5 years. This would in many ways emulate the way RAF SAR flts have run for decades - so very much a "Coastal" tradition!
After all we stored those infernal Mk3 Chinooks for 9 years!!

The 2 remaining ac could have been manned with a maximum of 3 crews who would have continued development of the tactics etc, and even been able to hold some sort of Q and SAR standby to the UK's ultimate and essential benefit. Moreover we would have had a live ac for any unforeseen ramp up in ASW events or rapid reaction long range need for this very capable ISTAR and digitally programmable attack weapons platform. We have perhaps forgotten how just a few modified MR2s were able to provide some important long range platform capability during the Falklands conflict to very great effect - a result that heavily influenced the MRA4 specification. Indeed what havoc will one modern sub now wreak in any modern UK waters scenario, never mind a terrorist surface vessel problem. There are other options of cousre but all are very inferior to the long range and rapid reaction persistence available from the MRA4. Out of the box of course it could even have been used as a long range attack ac with suitable heavy loads of stand off munitions....particularly now we have no carrier based ac. Such agility and flexibility now to go to the scrap heap after so much invested by all.
Clearly something else would have had to give to pay for this, but I personally am appalled that we are about to keep spending nearly £400M on keeping 24 40 year old Pumas going for the sake of preventing the PM from having to announce any reduction in major SH investment....despite the loss of 10 CH47s from the proposed buy. The latter would have been a wiser purchase, even leaving enough cash to keep a limited MRA4 capability going for 5 years until a reappraisal could be made on expanding the fleet again or not dependng on UAV progress.
This crass prime ministerial decision ramks alongside TSR2...if not a worse one given its signifcance to UK maritime defence. I am sooooooooooo annoyed!!

[AQAfive]

Missing the point

Most seem to be looking at this situation from a practical 'we must have the ac' standpoint. You are dealing with senior civil servants from the treasury who only know their way round a spreadsheet. They have been subjected to BAES and their 'Cost Plus' attitude for the past 14 years and have cried enough! We all know how essential if not vital the ac would be, but that counts for nothing.

Unfortunately, all our senior politicians are just that with no experience in the real world. Until one of them is sat in a dinghy at 20W and finds that there is no ac to find them, will their approach ever change. Unless, of course, someone decides to sail up the Thames with an old cargo vessel and parks next to the House of Commons and lights the blue touch paper. Ooo, never saw that coming.

I'm tempted to say save your breath and typing fingers, said politician will never change his mind, too embarrassing, and remember we are such a small part of society, they will not miss my missing vote. But that would be defeatist so I plan to let my MP know how I feel just to vent my anger and disbelief, I know it wont do anything, but it will make me feel better.

[mlc]

The reason that Our Dave can get away with it, are these replies on another forum about the MR4a :

You and your ex colleague are the ones with a head buried up the idea that we are a military power.
You fail to grasp we do not have the money OR THE RIGHT to intercede in affairs of other contries outside our borders. We are not the worlds policemen, we do not project influence. We are also not here to save every Russian trawlerman in the Atlantic or polar regions. Do the rest of the world pay us for such services, or have the ability to reciprocate in the middle of the indian ocean?

You are acting like a small child thats had his fancy electronic toys taken away from him.

And another:

As a self confessed ignoramus on this subject, and therefore representative of the great majority of the British public, the Nimrod is, to me, a Comet. A 60 year old plane with exploding fuel tanks.

another:


Anyone who calls Nimrod advanced either is joking or makes the junk..

And the people who ordered it were - to put it kindly - cretins...Unsafe at any speed was the motto of the prior one.

I could go on. Ignorance is bliss it seems. They must be very happy.

[Tallsar]

Got to empathise with you AQ.....indeed the lack of expertise from experience in our modern politicians was always going to undermine us at some stage..and here we are.
Its not easy to avoid focussing on a particular ac tye ...given it represented such an immense collection of capabilities......for sure the PM didn't grasp his history at that rather good school he attended.....HOW SAD!
Impotent it may ultimately prove...but if the likes of us don't say it as a matter of record its unlikely anyone else will.....so stick at it....have you tried the No10 website too!


MLC...I am aghast at both your ignorance about what military power we have continued to have (albeit in continuing degrees of decline for nearly 60 years now) and what influence it creates in all sorts of civil situations. You are of course welcome to take the view that we should do none of this...but clearly I and many would disgaree with you - including the present government

As for your comments re the ac itself.......you simply exemplify (in your ignorance) its real problem..it should have been named something other than Nimrod, as despite it not being anything but a most modern and capable LRMP/ISTAR ac (after all it was only the empty fuselage that was carried over from previous versions), the signifcant technical and political baggage associated wth the older variants have helped sink it.

Cheers