Nimrod MRA.4
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Just curious, what are the Nimrod 2 crews doing now? Ditto all the support staff?
Given the potentially smaller number of MRA4 crews, who will get those slots and what are they doing now?
I was once in the hold for the AEW3 and subsequently allocated an E3 course; managed to avoid the latter however but still 5 years out of my life; a very enjoyable 5 years I might add with visits to every NATO HQ in Europe thrown in.
Given the potentially smaller number of MRA4 crews, who will get those slots and what are they doing now?
I was once in the hold for the AEW3 and subsequently allocated an E3 course; managed to avoid the latter however but still 5 years out of my life; a very enjoyable 5 years I might add with visits to every NATO HQ in Europe thrown in.
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Most of those not required as MRA4 crew have been posted or moved into support roles. 42(R) Sqn has ramped up the training system and has a full compliment of trained Foundation Phase staff, whilst the air instructors eagerly await clearance to fly the aircraft.
The first full aircrew course started training at the beginning of this week and crews waiting to start their conversion are keeping their skills ticking over with a Sqn continuation training package.
The first full aircrew course started training at the beginning of this week and crews waiting to start their conversion are keeping their skills ticking over with a Sqn continuation training package.
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DD,
it isn't really about whether or not your 7000 hrs on the 737 family is suffficient for you to become an overnight expert or not. The real issue is that due to a poor choice of airframe, the USN is now having to re-write most of its ASW manual because the much vaunted P8 is struggling to achieve most of its KURs. The heavily pushed (by Boeing) advantages, such as the large commonality with other members of the 737 family, are beginning to be found somewhat lacking. The original figures talked about 75%+ commonality. Now that they have realised that commercial aircraft aren't built to withstand hours on end at low level, in a salt-laden environment, with additional bits and pieces hanging off every conceivable spare area of real estate, that commonality figure has dropped to 35% and is still decreasing as the P8 gets further and further away from the COTS solution it was originally intended to be. And that's the rub with COTS, it's cheap so long as it does what you want it to and so long as that is what everyone else wants it to do then they get built in huge numbers and are cheap. The moment you take something like the 737, designed to do one thing and try to change it, the costs spiral. The other thing that people seem to forget is that the P8 is only a part of the USN's intended maritime inventory, BAMS is the other bit you need to buy in order to do the areas of the job the P8 can't. So I now have to buy 2 separate systems, or accept that my future ASW is going to have to be done from medium level, if I go down the P8 only route. Finally, just on pure numbers, looking at the published figures for P8 Max Take-off Mass, Max Zero Fuel Mass and likely fuel burn rates, the P8 is going to manage about half the endurance of MRA 4 and none of it will be at low level. The submariners must be wetting themselves!!
it isn't really about whether or not your 7000 hrs on the 737 family is suffficient for you to become an overnight expert or not. The real issue is that due to a poor choice of airframe, the USN is now having to re-write most of its ASW manual because the much vaunted P8 is struggling to achieve most of its KURs. The heavily pushed (by Boeing) advantages, such as the large commonality with other members of the 737 family, are beginning to be found somewhat lacking. The original figures talked about 75%+ commonality. Now that they have realised that commercial aircraft aren't built to withstand hours on end at low level, in a salt-laden environment, with additional bits and pieces hanging off every conceivable spare area of real estate, that commonality figure has dropped to 35% and is still decreasing as the P8 gets further and further away from the COTS solution it was originally intended to be. And that's the rub with COTS, it's cheap so long as it does what you want it to and so long as that is what everyone else wants it to do then they get built in huge numbers and are cheap. The moment you take something like the 737, designed to do one thing and try to change it, the costs spiral. The other thing that people seem to forget is that the P8 is only a part of the USN's intended maritime inventory, BAMS is the other bit you need to buy in order to do the areas of the job the P8 can't. So I now have to buy 2 separate systems, or accept that my future ASW is going to have to be done from medium level, if I go down the P8 only route. Finally, just on pure numbers, looking at the published figures for P8 Max Take-off Mass, Max Zero Fuel Mass and likely fuel burn rates, the P8 is going to manage about half the endurance of MRA 4 and none of it will be at low level. The submariners must be wetting themselves!!
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DD,
You said that I think:
Well, those on here who know me must have wet themselves; I've never been a regular, and I hold the view that as a reservist, with proper training, I'm fully able to do the job at least as well as my regular counterparts - indeed, on occasion, rather better. So that's that prejudice dealt with.
My point is that whether or not you helmed a Nimrod sans conversion training, supervising crew or type rating about at 1000' as you claim, it's not the same as driving a 737 about - you need to be trained and to practice the combat elements of the engagement to ensure that you and your crew (lucky them!
) can prosecute the targets across the missions sets.
And I'm not against qualified reservist aircrew from civvie street. I had a friend who went through reserve commissioning and was effective in what he did - as well as being a BA FO on 777 at the time, now a 737 Capt - turned to 216 Sqn with a TriStar type rating from Cathay and 1500 hours as an FO, he was politely turned away as he hadn't done a military wings course. This to me was absurd- he certainly could have taken a TriStar to MPA (back when Timmy did these things) - but he wasn't allowed to fly an RAF airliner that he was qualified on as an airliner (no mention of AAR here) as he wasn't a QSP. I think that in these specific cases there should be an option - but that's not the same as what you're proposing (unless we get some C-40Bs....)
I'm not - and have never claimed to be - aircrew. But I am clear that the amount of training time the UK reserves get at the current time is scarcely sufficient to ensure that I and my team don't suffer skill fade to the extent that we can't make a useful contribution. Unless you've done it - and I'm not aware of any RNR SSN crews - then I suggest that you perhaps need to do a little more research on the UK reserve forces.
S41
You said that I think:
PS. Regulars in all arms of the Services traditionally regard reservists as unable to do their jobs. History usually proves them wrong.
My point is that whether or not you helmed a Nimrod sans conversion training, supervising crew or type rating about at 1000' as you claim, it's not the same as driving a 737 about - you need to be trained and to practice the combat elements of the engagement to ensure that you and your crew (lucky them!
) can prosecute the targets across the missions sets. And I'm not against qualified reservist aircrew from civvie street. I had a friend who went through reserve commissioning and was effective in what he did - as well as being a BA FO on 777 at the time, now a 737 Capt - turned to 216 Sqn with a TriStar type rating from Cathay and 1500 hours as an FO, he was politely turned away as he hadn't done a military wings course. This to me was absurd- he certainly could have taken a TriStar to MPA (back when Timmy did these things) - but he wasn't allowed to fly an RAF airliner that he was qualified on as an airliner (no mention of AAR here) as he wasn't a QSP. I think that in these specific cases there should be an option - but that's not the same as what you're proposing (unless we get some C-40Bs....)
I'm not - and have never claimed to be - aircrew. But I am clear that the amount of training time the UK reserves get at the current time is scarcely sufficient to ensure that I and my team don't suffer skill fade to the extent that we can't make a useful contribution. Unless you've done it - and I'm not aware of any RNR SSN crews - then I suggest that you perhaps need to do a little more research on the UK reserve forces.
S41
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Any chance this can move away from personality bashing and how good the MR2 was in its day and move back to the point of the thread...
I hear Alpha flew last week... Any confirmation of that?
I hear Alpha flew last week... Any confirmation of that?
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routinely practice turning hard over the sea at 200' in rain at night
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Olddog, spot on. No constituted crew likes flying with guest artisits unless they know them well.
It has always been my opinion that we should have had the Atlantique in the first place, we could still be flying developments of it now, at a vastly reduced over-all cost.
"he hadn't done a military wings course"
Sounds to me like he had done a damn sight more than what passes for military flying training these days.
Probably had more experirence than most current AT captains.
Have you still got his number?
Sounds to me like he had done a damn sight more than what passes for military flying training these days.
Probably had more experirence than most current AT captains. Have you still got his number?
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Short Fat One - It almost sounds like you know what you're talking about! Makes a refreshing change on here!
TBM Legend, how perceptive indeed; you're right the Taleban don't have any subs. Are you denying the contribution MR1/2 made across defence over it's 40 yrs (not just ASW)? Do you think long range multi-role ac such as MRA4 or P8 (note I said multi-role not MPA) won't have a contribution to make over the next 25 turbulent years?
TBM Legend, how perceptive indeed; you're right the Taleban don't have any subs. Are you denying the contribution MR1/2 made across defence over it's 40 yrs (not just ASW)? Do you think long range multi-role ac such as MRA4 or P8 (note I said multi-role not MPA) won't have a contribution to make over the next 25 turbulent years?
So, what is the latest "official" date quoted for the arrival of the first MRA4 at Kinloss......
Assuming that anyone is brave enough to quote such a date of course!
Assuming that anyone is brave enough to quote such a date of course!