Nimrod MRA.4
Fafner
If you're only 100 metres from the shore then I'll come and rescue in my Laser sailing dinghy! I think there might be some bigger UK registered boats and helicopters rushing to your aid as well - certainly not a job for an uber expensive sub hunter!
If the French want to help out - great, for LRSAR, but some of the more sensitive work of a UK MPA is what raises the most eyebrows. Anyway, how about a NATO MPA Force? Just a thought...and standing by for further incoming!
My feelings are that we have decided we cannot afford MPAs at the moment, so why get all parochial and not look a quick and affordable ways to plug the gaps - not get all pious with "only the Nimrod will do"?
The question we have to ask is - can we justify more cuts to education, health care, road/rail networks and policing? That's why the Nimrod has been chopped , not because of a whim of Dave, Nick and Dr Fox with his Service Chiefs. If Nu Labour had kept the UK Public Spending Credit Card in their wallet then we wouldn't be in such a mess - we never should have ordered MRA4, we couldn't afford it, just like Typhoon and CVF.
iRaven
If you're only 100 metres from the shore then I'll come and rescue in my Laser sailing dinghy! I think there might be some bigger UK registered boats and helicopters rushing to your aid as well - certainly not a job for an uber expensive sub hunter!
If the French want to help out - great, for LRSAR, but some of the more sensitive work of a UK MPA is what raises the most eyebrows. Anyway, how about a NATO MPA Force? Just a thought...and standing by for further incoming!
My feelings are that we have decided we cannot afford MPAs at the moment, so why get all parochial and not look a quick and affordable ways to plug the gaps - not get all pious with "only the Nimrod will do"?
The question we have to ask is - can we justify more cuts to education, health care, road/rail networks and policing? That's why the Nimrod has been chopped , not because of a whim of Dave, Nick and Dr Fox with his Service Chiefs. If Nu Labour had kept the UK Public Spending Credit Card in their wallet then we wouldn't be in such a mess - we never should have ordered MRA4, we couldn't afford it, just like Typhoon and CVF.
iRaven
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Outside the Matz
Posts: 220
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
iRaven,
You obviously have an axe to grind but I will lay it out in simple terms for you.
Its fu£$ing paid for!
It costs Fu$£ all to continue. The Jet is paid for,The infrastructure is paid for. The most modern airfield in the RAF is Paid for. Combat ready crews are ready to go and could be flying the most potent MPA in the world within a year.
Cancelation costs and contract clauses means that we could effectively operate for the next 5 years for nothing. How about we review in 5 years when we break even?
In the mean time iRaven, I hope whoever in the maritime fleet turned you into such a bitter individual rots in hell !
You obviously have an axe to grind but I will lay it out in simple terms for you.
Its fu£$ing paid for!
It costs Fu$£ all to continue. The Jet is paid for,The infrastructure is paid for. The most modern airfield in the RAF is Paid for. Combat ready crews are ready to go and could be flying the most potent MPA in the world within a year.
Cancelation costs and contract clauses means that we could effectively operate for the next 5 years for nothing. How about we review in 5 years when we break even?
In the mean time iRaven, I hope whoever in the maritime fleet turned you into such a bitter individual rots in hell !
Bannock
That's just the point - it ain't "fu£$ing paid for". The savings generated from this SDSR option are circa £2.3Bn over 10 years, I know, I've seen the figures (and a whole host more!). Now when it comes to contract cancellation, just remind me how many MRA4 have been delivered on time and "of merchantable quality" that meets today's airworthiness requirements - I would offer "Zip".
I don't have a "downer" on MPA, per se, but I do have a downer on a company that consistently fails to deliver on its promises - I hope that MRA4 is the straw that breaks the camel's back. I have risked my neck in aircraft from the company for many years, and quite frankly it just isn't good enough. I do believe we need MPA, but not at the uber expensive prices that surround this program that was doomed from the start. I know if you listen to the whippet chasers in the company you'll hear "you can't get owt for nowt", but at circa £500m per copy I'd want a gold plated bog on the aircraft for that!
£2.3Bn over 10 years, that's a lot of Policemen, Nurses and Teachers - go figure... If you don't believe me what a dire position we are in then read the recently released "Tough Choices" paper : http://www.ipsos-mori.com/DownloadPu...ember-2010.pdf
To quote Woody Harrelson "It's time to nut up or shut up"!
My opinion is that if anyone should do any rotting, then they are the ones that have either lined their pockets in the North West or are probably long-retired acquisition civil-serpents that were bought off (or were just plain incompetent).
iRaven
That's just the point - it ain't "fu£$ing paid for". The savings generated from this SDSR option are circa £2.3Bn over 10 years, I know, I've seen the figures (and a whole host more!). Now when it comes to contract cancellation, just remind me how many MRA4 have been delivered on time and "of merchantable quality" that meets today's airworthiness requirements - I would offer "Zip".
I don't have a "downer" on MPA, per se, but I do have a downer on a company that consistently fails to deliver on its promises - I hope that MRA4 is the straw that breaks the camel's back. I have risked my neck in aircraft from the company for many years, and quite frankly it just isn't good enough. I do believe we need MPA, but not at the uber expensive prices that surround this program that was doomed from the start. I know if you listen to the whippet chasers in the company you'll hear "you can't get owt for nowt", but at circa £500m per copy I'd want a gold plated bog on the aircraft for that!
£2.3Bn over 10 years, that's a lot of Policemen, Nurses and Teachers - go figure... If you don't believe me what a dire position we are in then read the recently released "Tough Choices" paper : http://www.ipsos-mori.com/DownloadPu...ember-2010.pdf
To quote Woody Harrelson "It's time to nut up or shut up"!
My opinion is that if anyone should do any rotting, then they are the ones that have either lined their pockets in the North West or are probably long-retired acquisition civil-serpents that were bought off (or were just plain incompetent).
iRaven
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: As close to beer as humanly possible
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
iRaven,
The figures you quoted do NOT include the contract penalties and aircraft disposal. The net saving for the first five years will be almost zero!
The figures you quoted do NOT include the contract penalties and aircraft disposal. The net saving for the first five years will be almost zero!
Kebab
The numbers quoted are correct. I've seen the same and I have informally spoken to a lot of the Nimrod chaps at High Wycombe who seem to have similar opinions. The figures include everything to support Nimrod for 10 years, most of which will be gone within 18 months - hence the first year's saving (Apr 11-Mar 12) is smaller than the following 9.
As far as I'm concerned, BWoS can "go whistle" for any contract penalties - if not we should get "Rogue Traders" on the case!
Apparently, according to the BBC website, "Matt and Dan are off hunting rogues for the next series or Rogue Traders..."
Rogue Traders - Consumer show exposing businesses and individuals giving customers a raw deal.
LJ
The numbers quoted are correct. I've seen the same and I have informally spoken to a lot of the Nimrod chaps at High Wycombe who seem to have similar opinions. The figures include everything to support Nimrod for 10 years, most of which will be gone within 18 months - hence the first year's saving (Apr 11-Mar 12) is smaller than the following 9.
As far as I'm concerned, BWoS can "go whistle" for any contract penalties - if not we should get "Rogue Traders" on the case!
Apparently, according to the BBC website, "Matt and Dan are off hunting rogues for the next series or Rogue Traders..."
Rogue Traders - Consumer show exposing businesses and individuals giving customers a raw deal.
LJ
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Outside the Matz
Posts: 220
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
iRaven
I agree that a certain contractor(BAE) has been screwing the MOD for many years and its products are crap. MRA4 is outstanding because of the Kit (none of which is British) and crew (parentage debatable) that is inside the jet and not the airframe, although I must admit to a bit of a semi whenever I see it ! Blue roll to the Tac area please!
I believe that there is a genuine need for a public enquiry into BAEs behaviour WRT defence contracts.
When I speak of contract cancellation penalties, I am talking about companies that have honoured their obligations in terms of deliverables and support. MRA4 is not one contract and one company it is many companies,many decent people and many innocent families.
Yes we have a right to get pissed of with one company but we can not,in a fit of anger, take it out on innocent parties because someone who has been in post for a few months wants to make his mark without knowing all the facts.
Regards
I agree that a certain contractor(BAE) has been screwing the MOD for many years and its products are crap. MRA4 is outstanding because of the Kit (none of which is British) and crew (parentage debatable) that is inside the jet and not the airframe, although I must admit to a bit of a semi whenever I see it ! Blue roll to the Tac area please!
I believe that there is a genuine need for a public enquiry into BAEs behaviour WRT defence contracts.
When I speak of contract cancellation penalties, I am talking about companies that have honoured their obligations in terms of deliverables and support. MRA4 is not one contract and one company it is many companies,many decent people and many innocent families.
Yes we have a right to get pissed of with one company but we can not,in a fit of anger, take it out on innocent parties because someone who has been in post for a few months wants to make his mark without knowing all the facts.
Regards
Last edited by Bannock; 28th Nov 2010 at 16:12.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: As close to beer as humanly possible
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Unfortunately BWoS, amongst other companies (Thales, Ultra etc), WILL receive significant contract cancellation payments, together with disposal costs.
The £2.3 Billion figure over 10 years (£0.3B outstanding plus approximately £200M per annum) is correct but when you apply the expected £1 Billion cost of cancellation, the net cost for the first five years ((5 x £200M)-£1,000,000,000)) is zero due to the penalties incurred.
I accept that the following five years will cost approximately £1 Billion but I guarantee that £2.3 Billion (Net) will not be saved and a further (approx) £1 Billion will be wasted, creating a grand total of 4.6 Billion pound of wasted tax-payers' money.
The £2.3 Billion figure over 10 years (£0.3B outstanding plus approximately £200M per annum) is correct but when you apply the expected £1 Billion cost of cancellation, the net cost for the first five years ((5 x £200M)-£1,000,000,000)) is zero due to the penalties incurred.
I accept that the following five years will cost approximately £1 Billion but I guarantee that £2.3 Billion (Net) will not be saved and a further (approx) £1 Billion will be wasted, creating a grand total of 4.6 Billion pound of wasted tax-payers' money.
Last edited by Donna K Babbs; 28th Nov 2010 at 12:15. Reason: Replacing zeros for words
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: scotland
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
iRaven,
"The question we have to ask is - can we justify more cuts to education, health care, road/rail networks and policing? That's why the Nimrod has been chopped , not because of a whim of Dave, Nick and Dr Fox with his Service Chiefs."
No the question we have to ask is "Why do politicians prefer to give UK taxpayer money away in foreign aid (8 billion a year and now to increase to 11 billion a year) to other countries while cutting education, health care, road/rail networks, policing and putting at risk the defence of Britian".
Why is foreign aid ring fenced?
If politicians believe we "as a rich country" should borrow money to then give it away, then let it be for the people to decide by private dotations to charity, not by politicians forcing everyone to contribute to their guilt trip.
"The question we have to ask is - can we justify more cuts to education, health care, road/rail networks and policing? That's why the Nimrod has been chopped , not because of a whim of Dave, Nick and Dr Fox with his Service Chiefs."
No the question we have to ask is "Why do politicians prefer to give UK taxpayer money away in foreign aid (8 billion a year and now to increase to 11 billion a year) to other countries while cutting education, health care, road/rail networks, policing and putting at risk the defence of Britian".
Why is foreign aid ring fenced?
If politicians believe we "as a rich country" should borrow money to then give it away, then let it be for the people to decide by private dotations to charity, not by politicians forcing everyone to contribute to their guilt trip.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Home
Posts: 3,399
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nimblast
Why dont you do a bit of internet investigation work about foreign "aid"?
Do you honestly believe it is charitable?
Do you think it comes without hawser-like strings attached?
Do you think the polititians care about the opinions of non-voters in other countries?
Or do you think it just might maybe be in our self interest?
Why dont you do a bit of internet investigation work about foreign "aid"?
Do you honestly believe it is charitable?
Do you think it comes without hawser-like strings attached?
Do you think the polititians care about the opinions of non-voters in other countries?
Or do you think it just might maybe be in our self interest?
Nimblast - stand as an MP, with those as the key campaigning points, form a party in the House, and stop it. Until then, they're the points the Great British Public have voted into power. Democracy, a bummer eh?
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: scotland
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks tourist,
Why don’t you do a bit of internet investigation work about foreign "aid"?
Why should we as a country borrow money (and pay interest on the borrowed money) just to give it away in foreign aid, UK tax should be to fund the requirements of the British people with schools, police DEFENCE etc, not given away to fund the world. If you wish to fund foreign aid then please feel free to send additional money to charities, they at least ensure the money is better spent than the goverment do.
Do you honestly believe it is charitable?
From the point of view of a politician YES
Do you think it comes without hawser-like strings attached?
Tourist are you saying that not a single penny of aid is wasted or put into Swiss bank accounts by the recipient countries?
Do you think the politicians care about the opinions of non-voters in other countries?
Politicians only worry about if they look good in front of the friends and handing out tax payer’s money is a way to do that, it makes them feel good about themselves (shame their using your hard earned money tourist to achieve their feelgood factor).
Or do you think it just might maybe be in our self interest?
I think it is more in our self interest to help the people in Britain first.
The first duty of government is defence of the country -
Defence / schools / Police etc are being cut to fund the increases in foreign aid!
Why don’t you do a bit of internet investigation work about foreign "aid"?
Why should we as a country borrow money (and pay interest on the borrowed money) just to give it away in foreign aid, UK tax should be to fund the requirements of the British people with schools, police DEFENCE etc, not given away to fund the world. If you wish to fund foreign aid then please feel free to send additional money to charities, they at least ensure the money is better spent than the goverment do.
Do you honestly believe it is charitable?
From the point of view of a politician YES
Do you think it comes without hawser-like strings attached?
Tourist are you saying that not a single penny of aid is wasted or put into Swiss bank accounts by the recipient countries?
Do you think the politicians care about the opinions of non-voters in other countries?
Politicians only worry about if they look good in front of the friends and handing out tax payer’s money is a way to do that, it makes them feel good about themselves (shame their using your hard earned money tourist to achieve their feelgood factor).
Or do you think it just might maybe be in our self interest?
I think it is more in our self interest to help the people in Britain first.
The first duty of government is defence of the country -
Defence / schools / Police etc are being cut to fund the increases in foreign aid!
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 126
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I believe that there is a genuine need for a public enquiry into BAEs behaviour WRT defence contracts.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Winchester
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It takes a lot for me to be compelled to write on a thread but, as a member of a still flying yet suffering fleet, i too would like 8 billion spent on the armed forces/nhs/public transport etc etc.
However my very simple brain can work out 8 billion borrowed at 1.5%, then loaned out at 5% = 3.5% profit, which of 8 billion is a substantial whack and if we have to borrow the 8 billion in the first place then it's not there to be spent on anything else.
Doesn't mean we shouldn't have a MPA capability, it would take some of the strain off us down south, selfishly, and most importantly we're an island nation! Roll on Global Hawks or some cheaper UAV platform maybe, i don't know the solution but would be nicer to think our seas are being watched!
However my very simple brain can work out 8 billion borrowed at 1.5%, then loaned out at 5% = 3.5% profit, which of 8 billion is a substantial whack and if we have to borrow the 8 billion in the first place then it's not there to be spent on anything else.
Doesn't mean we shouldn't have a MPA capability, it would take some of the strain off us down south, selfishly, and most importantly we're an island nation! Roll on Global Hawks or some cheaper UAV platform maybe, i don't know the solution but would be nicer to think our seas are being watched!
Last edited by huwliet; 28th Nov 2010 at 22:25. Reason: grammar
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Tullahoma TN
Posts: 482
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Anyway, how about a NATO MPA Force? Just a thought...and standing by for further incoming!
All members of this NATO MPA Force will do their share of patrolling the Western Pacific regions, I assume.
All members of this NATO MPA Force will do their share of patrolling the Western Pacific regions, I assume.
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Scotland
Posts: 217
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As an engineer on this project from the start only now am I seeing the thousands of people required to sing at the same level. Very difficult
One thing I have learned is after a while working with BAE I enjoyed my time at Woodford and the engineers, THE PEOPLE WHO BUILD PLANES
The people that fly them are the latter point but everyone forgets the background ,Thousands of engineers make planes for a few to fly.
Nobody remembers us
One thing I have learned is after a while working with BAE I enjoyed my time at Woodford and the engineers, THE PEOPLE WHO BUILD PLANES
The people that fly them are the latter point but everyone forgets the background ,Thousands of engineers make planes for a few to fly.
Nobody remembers us
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Tennessee - Smoky Mountains
Age: 55
Posts: 1,602
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Well there are engineers and then there are engineers.
In my business, one of the first things that the Engineers would have considered (or been forced to consider by the business people) is the likelihood of success on a technical level in any project. Can it be done? What are the potential banana skins? How might we mitigate them? What is plan B if things aren't as we expected? What if things go well, can we gain anything?
In my business, one of the first things that the Engineers would have considered (or been forced to consider by the business people) is the likelihood of success on a technical level in any project. Can it be done? What are the potential banana skins? How might we mitigate them? What is plan B if things aren't as we expected? What if things go well, can we gain anything?
