The Navigator in Military Aviation
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Apparently, delays in satellite launches and problems with budgets mean that the probability of GPS remaining fully functional and, therefore, accurate will be as low as 10 per cent come 2017.
I know it depends on the total avionics fit but even know GPS can be jammed.
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Would it not be ironic after reading the posts prior to this one, if for example a Nav was chopped but then was streamed Pilot, only to become a Harrier Pilot!!
Now that would never happen would it?
Only rumor mind you
From an Ex Nav who's now taking you chimps on holiday, getting paid more, working less with newer toys and at least 5 lovely cabin crew (with the odd mincer thrown in for the ex rotary pilots!), oh and almost forgot, home every night and not getting shot at.
Now that would never happen would it?
Only rumor mind you
From an Ex Nav who's now taking you chimps on holiday, getting paid more, working less with newer toys and at least 5 lovely cabin crew (with the odd mincer thrown in for the ex rotary pilots!), oh and almost forgot, home every night and not getting shot at.
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'Drone operators', surely?
RPVs, UAVs, UCAVs, AAVs, call them what you will, they're still just drones.
RPVs, UAVs, UCAVs, AAVs, call them what you will, they're still just drones.
Look- we have just as many pilots now as we did in xxxx etc
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Don't forget the bit about the chip on each shoulder!
Personally I think that the RAF should get rid of all navigators as soon as possible.....
Of course it would only be fair to compensate them in some way, say something in the region of £250,000-£500,000
Of course it would only be fair to compensate them in some way, say something in the region of £250,000-£500,000
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
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Ah yes, the Observer - isn't he the one who runs the entire ASW/AAW/ASuW battle from the air for up to 6 hours, while prompting the trained monkey up front to take his fuel checks, monitor his Ts & Ps and not overtalk the radios, and then finds his own way back to a moving runway in the middle of the sea, in IMC, without pigeons, conducting his own instrument approach to land because the Ship is EMCON and radio silent?
I'm sure all those pilots there feel fully justified in their extra £3 per day enhanced rate of flying pay, since they get to do all those ground runs.
I'm sure all those pilots there feel fully justified in their extra £3 per day enhanced rate of flying pay, since they get to do all those ground runs.
Ah yes, the Observer - isn't he the one who runs the entire ASW/AAW/ASuW battle from the air for up to 6 hours, while prompting the trained monkey up front to take his fuel checks, monitor his Ts & Ps and not overtalk the radios, and then finds his own way back to a moving runway in the middle of the sea, in IMC, without pigeons, conducting his own instrument approach to land because the Ship is EMCON and radio silent?
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Ah yes, the Observer - isn't he the one who runs the entire ASW/AAW/ASuW battle from the air for up to 6 hours, while prompting the trained monkey up front to take his fuel checks, monitor his Ts & Ps and not overtalk the radios, and then finds his own way back to a moving runway in the middle of the sea, in IMC, without pigeons, conducting his own instrument approach to land because the Ship is EMCON and radio silent?
I'm sure all those pilots there feel fully justified in their extra £3 per day enhanced rate of flying pay, since they get to do all those ground runs.
I'm sure all those pilots there feel fully justified in their extra £3 per day enhanced rate of flying pay, since they get to do all those ground runs.
"Master of GAPAN "
Slight thread creep, but I had a look at the old GAPAN newsetters and was funny to see that the previous Master, RPE, was able to get to many pics of himself into one news sheet. It reminded me of when he was staish at Leeming, I think the record was 41 pics of himself in the station magazine, although the average was mid 30s.
Anyway back to the thread. As a nav who left a long time ago, its a shame - a shame to see the same old crap banter coming out. That said, I was pretty bitter after my BFT chop, and if truth be known, was never that content in the back, even though I was probably a lot better placed there. Still, finally ending up in a tank mean't that the driver was probably the lowest rank, along with the gunner/loader, whilst I managed the formation, tactics and general welfare of the troop so I guess Finningbobs served a purpose.
Slight thread creep, but I had a look at the old GAPAN newsetters and was funny to see that the previous Master, RPE, was able to get to many pics of himself into one news sheet. It reminded me of when he was staish at Leeming, I think the record was 41 pics of himself in the station magazine, although the average was mid 30s.
Anyway back to the thread. As a nav who left a long time ago, its a shame - a shame to see the same old crap banter coming out. That said, I was pretty bitter after my BFT chop, and if truth be known, was never that content in the back, even though I was probably a lot better placed there. Still, finally ending up in a tank mean't that the driver was probably the lowest rank, along with the gunner/loader, whilst I managed the formation, tactics and general welfare of the troop so I guess Finningbobs served a purpose.
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I'm sure Maxibon's feelings are shared by most. But the point is the operational importance of the job. More than fifty years ago (Hansard,10 March,1958) the Secretary of State for Air, talking of a shortage of Navigators, declared in Parliament: "This is worrying, because of the important part which the navigator plays in the modern bomber crew. In some ways he has a more difficult job than the pilot himself. We have been trying to emphasise his equal footing with the pilot and are making some navigators captains of aircraft."
There has been a real revolution in Air Navigation since then, and the navigator has disappeared from the cockpit of civil aircraft.
But in military aviation he has a presence and his task has also undergone a revolutionary change. That is why a serious review is needed - in the right forum.
There has been a real revolution in Air Navigation since then, and the navigator has disappeared from the cockpit of civil aircraft.
But in military aviation he has a presence and his task has also undergone a revolutionary change. That is why a serious review is needed - in the right forum.
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In military aviation the Nav still has a presence only because of the age of some of our inventory. If you look at our newer stock he/she has been replaced by a set of black boxes, often more capable of doing the same job.
The civilain world tidied up their flight decks ages ago with the removal of Nav's and Fe's, we are slowly but surely following suit and will get there in time, it's inevitable folks.
The civilain world tidied up their flight decks ages ago with the removal of Nav's and Fe's, we are slowly but surely following suit and will get there in time, it's inevitable folks.
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Navigators - bless 'em all...........
As a flight engineer on the Hastings I watched our navigator make a meal of a sun gun shot which frustrated him so much that he threw himself at the flight deck floor - and missed!!
SFFP
Quite right - the same way air gunners went. Its progress. And I speak as a nav (but you'll only get fries if you ask nicely for them before anyone asks
)
The only thing is with no navigators who will fill the majority of the $hitty staff jobs - because you can bet on the fact that there won't be a reduction in the number of SO1/2/3 'flying branch only' staff appointments!
Quite right - the same way air gunners went. Its progress. And I speak as a nav (but you'll only get fries if you ask nicely for them before anyone asks
)The only thing is with no navigators who will fill the majority of the $hitty staff jobs - because you can bet on the fact that there won't be a reduction in the number of SO1/2/3 'flying branch only' staff appointments!
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
I was a member of a committee over 20 years ago. The 'senior' nav present, who was serving at the Ministry asked "What is the future of the Navigator Branch in the Royal Air Force?"
We looked at him with incredulity as we assumed that HE was the one who would have the answer to the question.
Some 10 years later the 'solution' was to abolish the Navigator branch and create the WSO brevet. Initially the job didn't change and to suggest that the navigator or a transport or tanker aircraft was a weapons systems operator was frankly ludicrous.
Another 10 years on and the straight navigator role has all but disappeared and with the eventual retirement of the C130K and VC10 it will linger to the death only in the E3. Heresy maybe but I guess even the E3 nav could go if they wanted to.
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Briefly.
1. As of now, the claims about the demise of the navigator (by whatever name he may be known) are rather exaggerated.
2. There is a sizeable number of front line combat aircraft (eg the Tornado, SU 30) where the navigator has a place in the cockpit.
3. The point about aircraft-age is not true - yet. There will always be a role in MR aircraft.
4. Navigation and piloting are distinct and irreducible functions of flight; and often a division of labour becomes operationally necessary.
5. Operational necessity is the key; and the navigator (or indeed any other category) should bow out gracefully when the time comes.
1. As of now, the claims about the demise of the navigator (by whatever name he may be known) are rather exaggerated.
2. There is a sizeable number of front line combat aircraft (eg the Tornado, SU 30) where the navigator has a place in the cockpit.
3. The point about aircraft-age is not true - yet. There will always be a role in MR aircraft.
4. Navigation and piloting are distinct and irreducible functions of flight; and often a division of labour becomes operationally necessary.
5. Operational necessity is the key; and the navigator (or indeed any other category) should bow out gracefully when the time comes.