New FRI for RAF Pilots?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: England
Age: 52
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes I know, I was surprised to hear it. I guess this could be the RAF thinking medium to longer term, which sounds unlikely. The recession might not last forever and we are short on just about every fleet. Must go wake up my pet pig, time for his afternoon flight!
I wouldn't bank on the recession as a retention measure.
Firstly, not all service leavers go to the airlines, and secondly, many leave the country.
The UK is far worse hit than any other country, and the airline industry is, by nature, global.
The quality of life is a far weightier push factor than the pull factor of the airlines at present.
How many see deploying on HERRICK 23 as a favoured career option?
Firstly, not all service leavers go to the airlines, and secondly, many leave the country.
The UK is far worse hit than any other country, and the airline industry is, by nature, global.
The quality of life is a far weightier push factor than the pull factor of the airlines at present.
How many see deploying on HERRICK 23 as a favoured career option?
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Mostly here, but often there
Posts: 542
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
50k for 5 years....before tax, so 30k, or 6k a year, or £500 a month.
Is this at age 38 (where eligible sqn ldrs get 100k - anyone know someone who actually took it?) or at 33 to stay to 38?
If it's at 38, your pension is worth more, especially with a second career, which should be feasible in 18-24 months.
Another well thought out plan by PMA....
Is this at age 38 (where eligible sqn ldrs get 100k - anyone know someone who actually took it?) or at 33 to stay to 38?
If it's at 38, your pension is worth more, especially with a second career, which should be feasible in 18-24 months.
Another well thought out plan by PMA....
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Far far away
Age: 53
Posts: 715
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You're absolutely right bbd:
I left at 38; a bog standard Flt Lt at my 16/38 point. My pension - just over 600 pounds every month, after max commutation - and I get that for NOT ging to work, or doing SDO, Sqn 540, taking the stick and carrot every day.
I left at 38; a bog standard Flt Lt at my 16/38 point. My pension - just over 600 pounds every month, after max commutation - and I get that for NOT ging to work, or doing SDO, Sqn 540, taking the stick and carrot every day.
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Scotland
Posts: 116
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I envy you D-IFF, I don't think there's going to be anything to keep me in post 38, but why would the Service want me to stay anyway? Too many guys believe the Service can't do without them and they are wrong. That being said at least the powers at be recognise that guys are going to step outside regardless of this downturn, and yes, last time I looked - airlines don't always fly solely from the UK. The FRI for Flt Lts would have to be BIG - and I mean BIG - to stop us senior Flt Lts leaving, especially when most of us have an ATPL or, at least, a 'plan' of a second career. I like what you did D-IFF - honour your 16 year contract, leave and do something you want to do on a pension that you were promised, I keep my side of the deal, the Service keeps its. They want to keep me, they gotta make it worth my while and 100k for 5 yrs at 40 - hell no! Those 5 years (and that's at S02 level) are worth considerably more to me that 12k a year (post tax of course). And if it's less for Flt Lts, which it will invariably be, you'll get the guys that were staying anyway - strangely enough - it will have no effect on the guys that were leaving.
I heard it too, for once it appears that the powers that be are looking ahead and trying to avoid knee-jerk reactions, and the possibility of offering all 38 yr old aircrew (selected sub specialities) PA as a matter of course.
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: On the edge of reality.
Posts: 58
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have heard a new approach may be taken:
At promotion to Sqn Ldr all pilots will be slid onto a separate pay scale akin to PA with flying pay included in the pension (ala hooligans pay..). This guarantees a better pension for all.
Those who are promoted further will be subject to a taper arrangement where less of their flying pay is pensionable as they proceed through up through the ranks.
Whilst it is a rumour it has come from more than one (and independent) fairly reputable sources that this has already been considered but lost impetus as the retention figures improved and the flying pay review became imminent.
I have also heard that Navy Comd are involved and would probably implement but have some form of selection process (can't have all aviators dipping in compared to the fish'eds!).
This, to me, seems a wiser long-term approach to retention that the FRI. Whether those captured by the current FRI would be eligible during the handcuff period is an intereting dilemma.
Whether it is proposed at the flying pay review is a different matter...
At promotion to Sqn Ldr all pilots will be slid onto a separate pay scale akin to PA with flying pay included in the pension (ala hooligans pay..). This guarantees a better pension for all.
Those who are promoted further will be subject to a taper arrangement where less of their flying pay is pensionable as they proceed through up through the ranks.
Whilst it is a rumour it has come from more than one (and independent) fairly reputable sources that this has already been considered but lost impetus as the retention figures improved and the flying pay review became imminent.
I have also heard that Navy Comd are involved and would probably implement but have some form of selection process (can't have all aviators dipping in compared to the fish'eds!).
This, to me, seems a wiser long-term approach to retention that the FRI. Whether those captured by the current FRI would be eligible during the handcuff period is an intereting dilemma.
Whether it is proposed at the flying pay review is a different matter...
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Wiltshire
Age: 58
Posts: 596
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I heard - contrary to small parochial popular belief - that the RAF weren’t the only aviators in the world!!!! Think it is across the board but I am tending toward the Pigs and flying option.
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aren't the vast majority of the PA guys coming to the end of their 5 year 'lock in' about now? Maybe they need us to hold the fort a little longer...
On the positive side, there's now no need for the last one out to turn off the light...as the bulb failed years ago (probably because some idiot said we had to test it four times each day)
On the positive side, there's now no need for the last one out to turn off the light...as the bulb failed years ago (probably because some idiot said we had to test it four times each day)
They could try implementing the concept of performance related pay that they harped on about a few years ago - give all 38 YO Flt Lts PA and then add extra levels for QHI/QFI/QWI/A2/A1 and other specialist qualifications so that the C Cat loafing in the crewroom doesn't get paid the same as the other guys who have made the effort to improve their knowledge and skills and take on more responsible positions within the PA spine.
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: EGDN
Posts: 155
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
At the moment the discussions and submission of evidence is ongoing for the quinquenial review (QQR) of Flying Pay. Basically, the three pay staffs have to prove every 5 years that flying pay should be justified for the next 5 years. If they cannot, then we lose it. (Most unlikely, I would agree, but that is the premise). At the same time the RAF and RN Pay staffs are trying to extend FRI 2c, which is due to run out next year. (Army officer aircrew were not entitled when it was brought in about 7 years ago). The results will be announced by the Armed Forces Pay Review Body at the annual pay announcement in Apr 10. At the current economic state, it will be a tough fight to get anything more than what we get now.
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: East Anglia
Posts: 349
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Brerakscrew,
Thank you for your post - you appear to be in the know. My tuppence worth if it adds anything.
Surely the treasury and bean counters must recognise that there are currently so many aircrew just sitting on their hands patiently watching and waiting for the 'green shoots' of recovery. Just as the ministers all clap their hands with joy as we come out of recession, so do the aircrew that are on the 15-20th tour of AFG?
My point being that not even a Govt that is destined to be replaced next year (if all opinion polls are to be believed) is going to shaft not only the Govt that takes over, but also the MoD when it suddenly hits critical mass as experienced aircrew walk into civvie life (nationally and internationally)?
The other area regarding 'not being hopeful and accepting what we currently have' with regard to flying pay, must again be a real short term view. What is the motivation for a Sqn Ldr to get promoted, when he or she can easily loaf in a crew room with no additional qualifications happily gaining all of the perks of PA?
Again, from a Treasury perspective the costs of FRIs (and the real retention) compared to a long term levelling of the playing field and strategic rention method must surely make financial sense? If not, then it is my personal belief that in 2012 H M Treasury will have to do one of 2 things, either dramatically cut the number of cockpits or put aside a significant amount of funding for even more 'extreme' FRIs.
As everyone is noting on this forum - taking the pension at the 38 year point equates to around £600 a month, where as even the 100k only reaches £500 a month.
The maths does not add up and anyone at any desk that is lulling themselves into a false sense of HR manning security based upon a recession that our own Chancellor is declaring will be over by 2010 is just asking for trouble or is willing to transfer significant risk to H M Forces as it continues to need experienced aircrew to fly very demanding missions in a very real war.
Make all flying pay pensionable - ensure that those career mahogny desk pilots are not disadvantaged by promotion to ensure that the brightest and the best do stay and are financially rewarded.
Oh, and by the way I am PA - earning my keep with a few 'I's after my name, but I know many that have left as soon as they have got their Wing Commander pension in the bag, because again the maths does not add up.
To the treasury and to the members of the AFPRB conducting this QQR - do the maths and look beyond the recession.
Thank you for your post - you appear to be in the know. My tuppence worth if it adds anything.
Surely the treasury and bean counters must recognise that there are currently so many aircrew just sitting on their hands patiently watching and waiting for the 'green shoots' of recovery. Just as the ministers all clap their hands with joy as we come out of recession, so do the aircrew that are on the 15-20th tour of AFG?
My point being that not even a Govt that is destined to be replaced next year (if all opinion polls are to be believed) is going to shaft not only the Govt that takes over, but also the MoD when it suddenly hits critical mass as experienced aircrew walk into civvie life (nationally and internationally)?
The other area regarding 'not being hopeful and accepting what we currently have' with regard to flying pay, must again be a real short term view. What is the motivation for a Sqn Ldr to get promoted, when he or she can easily loaf in a crew room with no additional qualifications happily gaining all of the perks of PA?
Again, from a Treasury perspective the costs of FRIs (and the real retention) compared to a long term levelling of the playing field and strategic rention method must surely make financial sense? If not, then it is my personal belief that in 2012 H M Treasury will have to do one of 2 things, either dramatically cut the number of cockpits or put aside a significant amount of funding for even more 'extreme' FRIs.
As everyone is noting on this forum - taking the pension at the 38 year point equates to around £600 a month, where as even the 100k only reaches £500 a month.
The maths does not add up and anyone at any desk that is lulling themselves into a false sense of HR manning security based upon a recession that our own Chancellor is declaring will be over by 2010 is just asking for trouble or is willing to transfer significant risk to H M Forces as it continues to need experienced aircrew to fly very demanding missions in a very real war.
Make all flying pay pensionable - ensure that those career mahogny desk pilots are not disadvantaged by promotion to ensure that the brightest and the best do stay and are financially rewarded.
Oh, and by the way I am PA - earning my keep with a few 'I's after my name, but I know many that have left as soon as they have got their Wing Commander pension in the bag, because again the maths does not add up.
To the treasury and to the members of the AFPRB conducting this QQR - do the maths and look beyond the recession.
Last edited by MaroonMan4; 27th Apr 2009 at 06:30.
Join Date: May 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The AFPRB states that the FRI for career stream pilots will continue for another three years. It also states that it will review the current employment market in the summer to see if they need to instate an FRI at all.
This is a tri service AFPRB therefore all career stream officers who fall within the bracket are eligible. The wording is very fixed wing orientated though and makes no mention of nco aircrew.
Currently it is a taxable payment of £50k with a 5 year ROS.
Rumours are abound at the moment regarding an FRI for AH pilots...
£100k with a ROS tbc......watch this space
This is a tri service AFPRB therefore all career stream officers who fall within the bracket are eligible. The wording is very fixed wing orientated though and makes no mention of nco aircrew.
Currently it is a taxable payment of £50k with a 5 year ROS.
Rumours are abound at the moment regarding an FRI for AH pilots...
£100k with a ROS tbc......watch this space
Guys ,If you don't mind my opinion from the outside.
If this FRI is to be considered it will need to be ABSOLUTELY HUGE.
As someone who left as a F/L with 10 years service, my civvy pay overtook mil pay at year two and now is @AVM+ level after @10 years!!!
In other words leave in your early 30s unless you believe you'll make AVM by early forties!!!
In pure pounds in your pocket (not everybodies raison d'etre agreed) a GOOD airline will be worth it in the long run.
As has been mentioned in previous threads airline flying is akin to watching paint dry, BUT, unlike in the Services, once you're on chocks with the donks off its "bye bye see you next time" with absolutely no extra duties to do.
Think very hard, number crunch service pension vs expected civvy salary (with pension accrual from an earlier age if you dont take the FRI.)
Is the x factor of goodies such as cheap accom,subsidised schooling etc better than an airlines free medical cover,loss of licence protection,widows benefits etc etc.
Sit down with a calculator and a spread sheet.
There will be an upturn in a year or two and the reputable airlines will be looking for capable 30 something people.
At the moment most airlines tend to only be recruiting people with 200 hrs and a rating. They can pay them( ***k all) on a "cadet" pay scale of @1/2 a normal fo's payscale.
This should change with demand.
As somebody else has stated, this FRI will only seem to benefit people who are going to stay in anyway.
Letters on the back of a postage stamp with examples of the last time MOD and financial acumen/planning were ever mentioned in the same breath
If this FRI is to be considered it will need to be ABSOLUTELY HUGE.
As someone who left as a F/L with 10 years service, my civvy pay overtook mil pay at year two and now is @AVM+ level after @10 years!!!
In other words leave in your early 30s unless you believe you'll make AVM by early forties!!!
In pure pounds in your pocket (not everybodies raison d'etre agreed) a GOOD airline will be worth it in the long run.
As has been mentioned in previous threads airline flying is akin to watching paint dry, BUT, unlike in the Services, once you're on chocks with the donks off its "bye bye see you next time" with absolutely no extra duties to do.
Think very hard, number crunch service pension vs expected civvy salary (with pension accrual from an earlier age if you dont take the FRI.)
Is the x factor of goodies such as cheap accom,subsidised schooling etc better than an airlines free medical cover,loss of licence protection,widows benefits etc etc.
Sit down with a calculator and a spread sheet.
There will be an upturn in a year or two and the reputable airlines will be looking for capable 30 something people.
At the moment most airlines tend to only be recruiting people with 200 hrs and a rating. They can pay them( ***k all) on a "cadet" pay scale of @1/2 a normal fo's payscale.
This should change with demand.
As somebody else has stated, this FRI will only seem to benefit people who are going to stay in anyway.
Letters on the back of a postage stamp with examples of the last time MOD and financial acumen/planning were ever mentioned in the same breath
