A very good military read
Thread Starter
A good read...
Red star rogue
By Kenneth Sewell & Clint Richmond
Just finished. Suggests that a Soviet sub went rogue and tried to launch a missile at Honolulu in 1968. Makes you think. Also suggests that project Jennifer (project to salvage the sub) went better than the disinformation out there suggests.
By Kenneth Sewell & Clint Richmond
Just finished. Suggests that a Soviet sub went rogue and tried to launch a missile at Honolulu in 1968. Makes you think. Also suggests that project Jennifer (project to salvage the sub) went better than the disinformation out there suggests.
Red On, Green On
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I'll make another suggestion - Bomber Boys, by Kevin Wilson, Cassell £8.99 paperback.
Incredibly well researched story of Bomber Command in 1943, from the point of view of the aircrew and their missions. Massive amount of personal recollection, diary entries etc. Should be required reading for all RAF OASC candidates.
Incredibly well researched story of Bomber Command in 1943, from the point of view of the aircrew and their missions. Massive amount of personal recollection, diary entries etc. Should be required reading for all RAF OASC candidates.
From a review on the (well-known big river) website, by William F Twist:
First, I want to say that I really, really wanted to like this book. I really did. But there were so many factual problems with it, that I can't take it seriously.
First and foremost, the author mentions on several pages that the explosion aboard K-129 was monitored by a US early warning satellite. The problem with this is that according to "Guardians, Strategic Reconnaissance Satellites" by Curtis Peebles (Presidio Press, 1987. ISBN 0-89141-284-0), a comprehensive work on intelligence satellites from the beginning until 1985, there were no early warning satellites in operation in March 1968, when K-129 went down. The low orbit MIDAS follow-up program was cancelled in 1966 (due to problems with coverage and false alarms), and Project 949, its geosynchronous replacement, wasn't launched until August of 1968. So, it couldn't have been been monitored, because we didn't have the capability at the time K-129 sank.
Also, Sewell claims that the sailing was timed to prevent it from being detected by photoreconaissance satellites, but again we run into an issue: At the time, *ALL* US photorecon satellites were 'film return' types. In other words, they imaged what they saw directly on to film, and when they were done they returned that film back to Earth to be developed and interpreted. After they ejected the film, they were essentially useless. Referring back to "Guardians" again, we find that the Russians didn't have to try very hard to evade them: Launch 1968-5 was on January 18th, and had a lifetime of 17 days. That put the return back on February 5th. K-129 sailed on February 24th. The next US launch wasn't until March 13th, almost a week after K-129 sank.
Also, the author claims that K-129 was followed by a Permit class submarine, and that this sub recorded the acoustical signature for later processing on land-based Cray supercomputers. Remember, this is 1968. Seymour Cray didn't found Cray Research until 1972, and the first Cray-1 wasn't completed until 1976. Now, I have no doubt that the boat could have been followed, and its signature recorded for processing back on land, but if the author makes a mistake like this (and the aforementioned ones), how can you trust the other claims?
Shame - it sounded such a good read. Anyway, I'll probably buy a copy.
First, I want to say that I really, really wanted to like this book. I really did. But there were so many factual problems with it, that I can't take it seriously.
First and foremost, the author mentions on several pages that the explosion aboard K-129 was monitored by a US early warning satellite. The problem with this is that according to "Guardians, Strategic Reconnaissance Satellites" by Curtis Peebles (Presidio Press, 1987. ISBN 0-89141-284-0), a comprehensive work on intelligence satellites from the beginning until 1985, there were no early warning satellites in operation in March 1968, when K-129 went down. The low orbit MIDAS follow-up program was cancelled in 1966 (due to problems with coverage and false alarms), and Project 949, its geosynchronous replacement, wasn't launched until August of 1968. So, it couldn't have been been monitored, because we didn't have the capability at the time K-129 sank.
Also, Sewell claims that the sailing was timed to prevent it from being detected by photoreconaissance satellites, but again we run into an issue: At the time, *ALL* US photorecon satellites were 'film return' types. In other words, they imaged what they saw directly on to film, and when they were done they returned that film back to Earth to be developed and interpreted. After they ejected the film, they were essentially useless. Referring back to "Guardians" again, we find that the Russians didn't have to try very hard to evade them: Launch 1968-5 was on January 18th, and had a lifetime of 17 days. That put the return back on February 5th. K-129 sailed on February 24th. The next US launch wasn't until March 13th, almost a week after K-129 sank.
Also, the author claims that K-129 was followed by a Permit class submarine, and that this sub recorded the acoustical signature for later processing on land-based Cray supercomputers. Remember, this is 1968. Seymour Cray didn't found Cray Research until 1972, and the first Cray-1 wasn't completed until 1976. Now, I have no doubt that the boat could have been followed, and its signature recorded for processing back on land, but if the author makes a mistake like this (and the aforementioned ones), how can you trust the other claims?
Shame - it sounded such a good read. Anyway, I'll probably buy a copy.
Thread Starter
Beagle
Have you read the book or simply done a quick Google? Don't let your source author make your mind up for you if not.
As what little expertise I possess lies in the air and not underwater, I have no definitive position. I was never clear why the sub sank, the main bit of interest being in the raising of it (Jennifer) and what was aboard. The information available says that only a small portion of the boat was recovered by the US. However at conferences decades later covering a range of POW and MIA issues the US gave the ships bell to the Russian delegation. The ships bell wasn't on the portion of the boat that the CIA admits it recovered.
The recovery claw was designed to lift large portions of the sub, not for plucking small items such as the bell. When the bell and other items discussed are viewed in the totality the author presents, it does make it sound as if the majority of the sub was raised.
While I have no hard opinions one way or another, it does beat watching those mindless reality shows on the tube.
Have you read the book or simply done a quick Google? Don't let your source author make your mind up for you if not.
As what little expertise I possess lies in the air and not underwater, I have no definitive position. I was never clear why the sub sank, the main bit of interest being in the raising of it (Jennifer) and what was aboard. The information available says that only a small portion of the boat was recovered by the US. However at conferences decades later covering a range of POW and MIA issues the US gave the ships bell to the Russian delegation. The ships bell wasn't on the portion of the boat that the CIA admits it recovered.
The recovery claw was designed to lift large portions of the sub, not for plucking small items such as the bell. When the bell and other items discussed are viewed in the totality the author presents, it does make it sound as if the majority of the sub was raised.
While I have no hard opinions one way or another, it does beat watching those mindless reality shows on the tube.
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A Good Read
You seem to know your books, you may be able to help me in a quest. A few years ago I spotted a book, can't remember the name though and now wish I had bought it there and then.
The book told the story of the Doolittle raid post Pearl Harbour. I want to get hold of this book, so if anyone knows the name I can order it from Amazon. Help much appreciated.
CRPxGood
The book told the story of the Doolittle raid post Pearl Harbour. I want to get hold of this book, so if anyone knows the name I can order it from Amazon. Help much appreciated.
CRPxGood
"The Doolittle Raid" by Carroll V. Glines
ISBN 0-515-10172-9
The copy I have is marked "Commemorating 50 years since the outbreak of World War 2", though, so I wouldn't fancy your chances.
Phil
ISBN 0-515-10172-9
The copy I have is marked "Commemorating 50 years since the outbreak of World War 2", though, so I wouldn't fancy your chances.
Phil
From Wikipedia:
Many books were written about the Doolittle Raid after the war. "Doolittle's Tokyo Raiders", by C.V. Glines, tells the complete story of the raid, including the unique experiences of each B-25 crew. "Guests of the Kremlin", written by copilot Bob Emmens, describes his crew's adventures as internees in Russia after their landing in that country following the raid. "Four Came Home", also by C.V.Glines, tells the story of Nielsen, Hite, Barr, and DeShazer—the Raiders who were held in POW camps for over three years. "The First Heroes" by Craig Nelson, goes into great detail of the events leading up to the raid and the aftermath for all the pilots and their families
Regarding 'Red Star Rogue', no Westy, I haven't yet bought the book. That review (and I've only quoted part of it) does rather cast doubt on some of the alleged facts stated in the book though. Which is a great pity.
The Jennifer operation sounds very interesting; as you say, if the Glomar Explorer's claw was only designed to raise large items, whence cameth the ship's bell......??
Perhaps The Truth is Out There........??
If the airport bookshop have a copy, I'm going to buy it on Monday.
Many books were written about the Doolittle Raid after the war. "Doolittle's Tokyo Raiders", by C.V. Glines, tells the complete story of the raid, including the unique experiences of each B-25 crew. "Guests of the Kremlin", written by copilot Bob Emmens, describes his crew's adventures as internees in Russia after their landing in that country following the raid. "Four Came Home", also by C.V.Glines, tells the story of Nielsen, Hite, Barr, and DeShazer—the Raiders who were held in POW camps for over three years. "The First Heroes" by Craig Nelson, goes into great detail of the events leading up to the raid and the aftermath for all the pilots and their families
Regarding 'Red Star Rogue', no Westy, I haven't yet bought the book. That review (and I've only quoted part of it) does rather cast doubt on some of the alleged facts stated in the book though. Which is a great pity.
The Jennifer operation sounds very interesting; as you say, if the Glomar Explorer's claw was only designed to raise large items, whence cameth the ship's bell......??
Perhaps The Truth is Out There........??
If the airport bookshop have a copy, I'm going to buy it on Monday.
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The story of finding the Russki sub on the sea floor. Fairly good read, you can tell when he had to be vague to get it by DoD.
“SPY SUB” A Top-Secret Mission to the Bottom of the Pacific. - By Roger C. Dunham. The true story of an American nuclear submarine’s desperate search for a nuclear-armed Soviet submarine (K-219) lost in the depths of the north Pacific. Author Roger Dunham was a crewman aboard the U.S. spy sub (USS Halibut SSGN-587) and tells his story of the still-classified mission to locate the Russian sub which carried deadly cargo of armed missiles. With slight technical modifications and name changes (calling Halibut the Viperfish), Dunham’s story was cleared for publication by the Department of Defense. This is the true story of the ultimate in naval technology, human skill, and undaunted courage in the darkest depths known to man. 1996 Hardback with dust jacket. 222 pages, 14 B/W photos, no maps or index.
“SPY SUB” A Top-Secret Mission to the Bottom of the Pacific. - By Roger C. Dunham. The true story of an American nuclear submarine’s desperate search for a nuclear-armed Soviet submarine (K-219) lost in the depths of the north Pacific. Author Roger Dunham was a crewman aboard the U.S. spy sub (USS Halibut SSGN-587) and tells his story of the still-classified mission to locate the Russian sub which carried deadly cargo of armed missiles. With slight technical modifications and name changes (calling Halibut the Viperfish), Dunham’s story was cleared for publication by the Department of Defense. This is the true story of the ultimate in naval technology, human skill, and undaunted courage in the darkest depths known to man. 1996 Hardback with dust jacket. 222 pages, 14 B/W photos, no maps or index.
Thread Starter
Beagle
Bear in mind there's not a lot of information out there about the project. What the book says is the claw (nicknamed clementine) itself weighed in at about 6 million pounds.
About the only pictures and drawing I can find along with authors from now two books on the subject describe the claw as quite large and designed for grasping the body of the sub. K129 was visited by US spy and research subs in the years leading up to the lift so who knows how and when the bell was plucked from the sea. The interesting part being that the CIA acknowledged portion of the sub would not have included the bell. The book has essentially 3 parts, the sailing and sinking of the sub. The international politics (along with the internal politics of the USSR and the US with regard to the sub) and then project Jennifer. Perhaps the author hasn't it right about spy satellite technology of the day, but the political aspects and the changes occurring from about the time project Jennifer's cover was blown may be the catalyst for many of the unexplained changes of the old guard in the Kremlin and within the Soviet military. Finally, Jennifer itself makes the book worthwhile.
http://hometown.aol.com/Reallycoolpix/USSHalibut.html
Bear in mind there's not a lot of information out there about the project. What the book says is the claw (nicknamed clementine) itself weighed in at about 6 million pounds.
About the only pictures and drawing I can find along with authors from now two books on the subject describe the claw as quite large and designed for grasping the body of the sub. K129 was visited by US spy and research subs in the years leading up to the lift so who knows how and when the bell was plucked from the sea. The interesting part being that the CIA acknowledged portion of the sub would not have included the bell. The book has essentially 3 parts, the sailing and sinking of the sub. The international politics (along with the internal politics of the USSR and the US with regard to the sub) and then project Jennifer. Perhaps the author hasn't it right about spy satellite technology of the day, but the political aspects and the changes occurring from about the time project Jennifer's cover was blown may be the catalyst for many of the unexplained changes of the old guard in the Kremlin and within the Soviet military. Finally, Jennifer itself makes the book worthwhile.
http://hometown.aol.com/Reallycoolpix/USSHalibut.html
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The Doolittle Raid
The most recent book on the Doolittle raid that I know of is "The First Heroes" by Craig Nelson, published in the UK by Corgi in 2003. Excellent account of the raid and it's aftermath.
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A good read
Well it's the holiday season approaching and I'm looking for advice on good literature regarding the Vietnam era.
I've read Chickenhawk (god knows how many times), Snake Pilot, Low Level hell, 13th Valley, Dear Mom: A Snipers Tale, Once a warrior king, Fields of Fire, and Dispatches. (No it's not a list to prove that I can read, it's just to stop any recommendations of what I have ready read).
Can anyone recommend a book that is a must read from that war or even Korea or French Vietnam era? There must be some good books regarding the fixed wing war out there.
Thank you.
I've read Chickenhawk (god knows how many times), Snake Pilot, Low Level hell, 13th Valley, Dear Mom: A Snipers Tale, Once a warrior king, Fields of Fire, and Dispatches. (No it's not a list to prove that I can read, it's just to stop any recommendations of what I have ready read).
Can anyone recommend a book that is a must read from that war or even Korea or French Vietnam era? There must be some good books regarding the fixed wing war out there.
Thank you.