Future Lynx...... Why not Pavehawk?!?
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Future Lynx...... Why not Pavehawk?!?
Which one would you rather have?
For around $10.2 Million you could have a Pavehawk 60G - Tried & Tested battlefield monster.
http://www.920rqw.afrc.af.mil/shared...090303-049.JPG
Or if you feel like being arsed raped for $21 Million, many be Future Lynx sounds like your cup of tea?
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...t_Naval_lg.jpg
on a serious note, what would you rather have as a Lynx replacement?
Jamie
For around $10.2 Million you could have a Pavehawk 60G - Tried & Tested battlefield monster.
http://www.920rqw.afrc.af.mil/shared...090303-049.JPG
Or if you feel like being arsed raped for $21 Million, many be Future Lynx sounds like your cup of tea?
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...t_Naval_lg.jpg
on a serious note, what would you rather have as a Lynx replacement?
Jamie
Unit costs are only part of the equation. To get the true figure of cost and time, you have to work out how much it would cost to create and sustain a completely new stores line for the Pavehawk, and to ensure that sufficient training was done to ensure pilots, crew and ground crew were trained and available to sustain the squadrons. You also need to work out how much it would cost, and how long it would take to integrate pavehawk into UK service, bearing in mind that integration trials usually show up huge problems which cost a lot of money to fix.
Its not just about buying the airframe, its about buying the capability that we can generate, deploy and sustain that also need to be considered.
Its not just about buying the airframe, its about buying the capability that we can generate, deploy and sustain that also need to be considered.
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To Jimlad's list add the cost of the support/test&repair equipment... hardly insignificant.
Then add the political cost of replacing yet another "home-built" aircraft with a "foreign import"... jobs, etc.
Not really doable.
Then add the political cost of replacing yet another "home-built" aircraft with a "foreign import"... jobs, etc.
Not really doable.
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Yes we have done this before....
but what we have not actually established is despite all of the AW 'bells and whistles' what actual increase in capability will FLynx give?
Lets look at the new engines going the current Lynx at the moment - shed loads of money, but ask the key question:
How much extra lift or range or endurance or anything that actually adds anything by way of an improvement in capability and all you will get is a lot of sucking of teeth and looking at the floor.
AW have come up with a solution that they want and provides them with money from the Crown in an environment that is not seeing much spending going on, but does not actually result in satisfying the requirement....or assisting the troops/aircrew on the ground
Sound familiar? All rumour and speculation of course.
Sadly I have to agree - if you want (small) lift then go for Future Medium Lift (or whatever it is called in this long drawn out SABR, FASH, FCR pontificating debacle) or if you want recce, then buy more AH (or at least correctly man/equip the ones that we already have).
Re-engined Lynx and FLynx that bring nothing to the party except saving Yeovil jobs and industry could be more intelligently reviewed by the use of Foreign Military Sales/building under licence to not only keep the jobs in Yeovil but also actually do as advertised on the tin with battle proven equipment (e.g. Pave Hawk).
but what we have not actually established is despite all of the AW 'bells and whistles' what actual increase in capability will FLynx give?
Lets look at the new engines going the current Lynx at the moment - shed loads of money, but ask the key question:
How much extra lift or range or endurance or anything that actually adds anything by way of an improvement in capability and all you will get is a lot of sucking of teeth and looking at the floor.
AW have come up with a solution that they want and provides them with money from the Crown in an environment that is not seeing much spending going on, but does not actually result in satisfying the requirement....or assisting the troops/aircrew on the ground
Sound familiar? All rumour and speculation of course.
Sadly I have to agree - if you want (small) lift then go for Future Medium Lift (or whatever it is called in this long drawn out SABR, FASH, FCR pontificating debacle) or if you want recce, then buy more AH (or at least correctly man/equip the ones that we already have).
Re-engined Lynx and FLynx that bring nothing to the party except saving Yeovil jobs and industry could be more intelligently reviewed by the use of Foreign Military Sales/building under licence to not only keep the jobs in Yeovil but also actually do as advertised on the tin with battle proven equipment (e.g. Pave Hawk).
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WE have done this to death and the answer was clear. We will buy the Wildcat from Westlands because it will guarentee future jobs which in turn will produce votes.
I would much rather my £1 of tax payers money go into the pocket of a bloke in Yeovil than a bloke in the USA.
I would much rather my £1 of tax payers money go into the pocket of a bloke in Yeovil than a bloke in the USA.
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Helicopter replacements for the UK military? Not much progress so far, then.
After 1979 when I first joined an operational squadron, the hot topic was AST 404 "should the Puma/Wessex replacement be the Blackhawk?"
Thirty years later they still struggle on with thirty five year old plus aircraft!
I remember seeing an RTM 322 powered Blackhawk fly at the Farborough Airshow; for a time we thought we might even get a few...
Back then the "hot" contender from the south west was the Westland 30
At least the RAF finally got the EHI 01, or EH 101 as it was mis-named.
I finally got to fly the Blackhawk for a living but had to go elsewhere to do it.
After 1979 when I first joined an operational squadron, the hot topic was AST 404 "should the Puma/Wessex replacement be the Blackhawk?"
Thirty years later they still struggle on with thirty five year old plus aircraft!
I remember seeing an RTM 322 powered Blackhawk fly at the Farborough Airshow; for a time we thought we might even get a few...
Back then the "hot" contender from the south west was the Westland 30
At least the RAF finally got the EHI 01, or EH 101 as it was mis-named.
I finally got to fly the Blackhawk for a living but had to go elsewhere to do it.
The replacement of Wessex / Puma by RTM-powered WS-70s was effectively scuppered by the AAC who were terrified that the armed potential of the Blackhawk would see the crabs grab at the Lynx role and prevent the acquisition of a dedicated AH. Much like the (eventual) RR powered (W)AH-64, the RTM WS-70 would have proved to be a potent platform in current theatres - indeed, it stacks up very favourably to the candidate platforms in the current FMH programme.
Whilst we all line up to give AW a good kicking on their own designs, it is as well to remember that they do a very good job of producing and improving other peoples airframes. The Whirlwind/Wessex/Sea King are all, arguably, better than their Sikorsky forebears and the Apache has proven a far better platform in Theatre. It is a crying shame that the skilled part of AW (mission systems / transmissions / rotor systems) have been denied the opportunity to exploit the Chinook / Blackhawk airframes in a similar way.
The RAF were forced to accept the Merlin against all military judgement (both RAF and Army wanted a pure Chinook buy). Partly this was to offset the cancellation of a large number of ASW Merlins as a "peace dividend". Hmm, so history repeats itself - the RAF were screwed to help out the RN and AW over Merlin in much the same way that the AAC is being shafted to accept FLynx to protect the RN SCMR requirement and, again, preserve AW jobs.
In fairness, in a recession, such "stealth protectionism" is only to be expected.
Whilst we all line up to give AW a good kicking on their own designs, it is as well to remember that they do a very good job of producing and improving other peoples airframes. The Whirlwind/Wessex/Sea King are all, arguably, better than their Sikorsky forebears and the Apache has proven a far better platform in Theatre. It is a crying shame that the skilled part of AW (mission systems / transmissions / rotor systems) have been denied the opportunity to exploit the Chinook / Blackhawk airframes in a similar way.
The RAF were forced to accept the Merlin against all military judgement (both RAF and Army wanted a pure Chinook buy). Partly this was to offset the cancellation of a large number of ASW Merlins as a "peace dividend". Hmm, so history repeats itself - the RAF were screwed to help out the RN and AW over Merlin in much the same way that the AAC is being shafted to accept FLynx to protect the RN SCMR requirement and, again, preserve AW jobs.
In fairness, in a recession, such "stealth protectionism" is only to be expected.
Widger - that link tells you what a good missile the Sea Skua was, not what a battle proven helicopter the Lynx was - they also fired rockets from the Wessex, does that make it a battle proven helicopter?
Actually since it has more uses than Lynx maybe AW should be looking a FWessex - at least you could fit a stick of troops in the back!!
Actually since it has more uses than Lynx maybe AW should be looking a FWessex - at least you could fit a stick of troops in the back!!
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The Blackhawk IS the FWessex.... or the SuperWessex!
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The Pave Hawk is obsolete, and was admittedly inadequate when purchased in the first place. It borrowed much 70's and 80's technology from the Pave Low which made it better than nothing. It still doesn't meet the USAF SAR requirements of 1968. It's had numerous upgrade plans which have tried to alleviate it's problems, including range, armament, cube, all weather capability and power (except at sea level). Most of those upgrades have been underfunded.
The 920th has included some great aviators, including some friends of mine. It's a shame they've been treated so poorly. Under the Airlift folks our rescue money was consistently shifted to the C-17. After the move to the fighter/bomber commanders it was the same story with fighter/bomber priorities.
I'd advise you to check the pubs in the Mildenhall/Lakenheath areas for a bona fide HH-60G expert. It may cost you a pint or two though.
A better argument might be the MH-60K, or the brand new stock black hawk off the line, depending on what you really want it for.
The 920th has included some great aviators, including some friends of mine. It's a shame they've been treated so poorly. Under the Airlift folks our rescue money was consistently shifted to the C-17. After the move to the fighter/bomber commanders it was the same story with fighter/bomber priorities.
I'd advise you to check the pubs in the Mildenhall/Lakenheath areas for a bona fide HH-60G expert. It may cost you a pint or two though.
A better argument might be the MH-60K, or the brand new stock black hawk off the line, depending on what you really want it for.
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So how do you fit a Pavehawk on a frigate designed (hangar size etc) around lynx? I think the Pavehawk probably has a bigger deck signature than the EH101 as well- Tail wheel vs nose wheel.
Concur with Jolly Green about old technology, just have a look at the RAN 60b-2s. Very old computers etc.
Hellfire would be nice though
Concur with Jolly Green about old technology, just have a look at the RAN 60b-2s. Very old computers etc.
Hellfire would be nice though
TDM
I’ve no doubt Sikorsky will field a Black Hawk solution – amongst others - to the MoD for the FMH competition in time, but cannot imagine for a figure of $10.2m. Especially when all UK content, training and entry into service costs are taken into account, but a well respected, capable and battle proven platform non-the-less.
Flynx, $21m? - In March 2008, the forecast cost to the MoD for the Flynx programme was a little under £2Bn, so with only 62 SCMR/BRH platforms on order, that’s around £32m a piece - a bargain I’m sure you will agree.
I’d hate to think how much Flynx would have cost the taxpayer had we not had a strategic partnering agreement.
I’ve no doubt Sikorsky will field a Black Hawk solution – amongst others - to the MoD for the FMH competition in time, but cannot imagine for a figure of $10.2m. Especially when all UK content, training and entry into service costs are taken into account, but a well respected, capable and battle proven platform non-the-less.
Flynx, $21m? - In March 2008, the forecast cost to the MoD for the Flynx programme was a little under £2Bn, so with only 62 SCMR/BRH platforms on order, that’s around £32m a piece - a bargain I’m sure you will agree.
I’d hate to think how much Flynx would have cost the taxpayer had we not had a strategic partnering agreement.
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Yeap AW 159 it is
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Again its going to be down to budgets and UK jobs. AW159 is going to be built in the UK and the money spent in UK industry. If we were to go down the route of Blackhawk for the AAC we would still need a Helecopter for the RN and given the dimensions of RN frigate hangers Seahawk may not be an option.
I would also suggest AW wouldn't get a liscence to manufacture as The USA will also be looking at preserving US jobs.
If the chancellors optimism doesn't pay of the Lynx AH9 re-engining programme could well be the only "New" lynx in service.
I would also suggest AW wouldn't get a liscence to manufacture as The USA will also be looking at preserving US jobs.
If the chancellors optimism doesn't pay of the Lynx AH9 re-engining programme could well be the only "New" lynx in service.
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and the Lynx Wildcat for the AAC and the FAA.