Should officers spend compulsory time in the ranks?
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One old Army trick that may have fallen out of use was to give a troublemaker a tape. If he proved useless it was swiftly removed but in some cases it revealed leadership potential. From personal experience I know of one of the last National servicemen (a particular Bolshie) who even became a regular and went on for a full career ending as a WO.
One old Army trick that may have fallen out of use was to give a troublemaker a tape. If he proved useless it was swiftly removed but in some cases it revealed leadership potential. From personal experience I know of one of the last National servicemen (a particular Bolshie) who even became a regular and went on for a full career ending as a WO.
In modern times, lance-corporal is a substantive rank and cannot be removed summarily. Previously [about before 1960] the army had unpaid lcpls and paid lcpls, as appointments, but both could be returned to their substantive rank, private, by stroke of CO's pen.
Not any more, though.
Not any more, though.
I have not read this entire thread and hence might repeat some words of wisdom already offered.
I did a 12 week OCTU in late 63/early 64 amongst direct entrants and ground and aircrew NCOs, who were going for a commission. I asked a Sergeant AEO what I should do when taking up my first job: ‘keep your mouth shut and your eyes open’ was his advice and I did my best to follow that. QRs imposed a specific task on warrant officers to guide junior officers and it was accepted generally that pilot officers were still learning and to a certain extent on probation.
On day to day matters, I usually sought advice from an ancient flight sergeant with anything new and I never tried to chuck my weight around except on one occasion when I was taken aside by a senior flight lieutenant who offered a few words of wisdom and it never happened again. I was always prepared to admit I didn’t know something and tried not blunder into the pooh too often. Years later, as a wing commander, I had a bumptious young officer who was trying to lord it over a warrant officer. I said to the officer, something like; “I don’t always do what Mr ‘X’ says I should do but I always listen to his view and if I go in a different direction, I always tell him why”.
In summary, I don’t think officers need to serve a period in the ranks but they do need guidance in their early years and I sometimes wonder if that fact isn’t lost amongst all the fancy management speak and box ticking.
One thing always stands out: ‘treat others as you expect to be treated’.
My wife, a retired sqn ldr, said that when anything difficult needed a decision, she applied the test: 'what will the subsequent Board of Enquiry find'?
Old Duffer
I did a 12 week OCTU in late 63/early 64 amongst direct entrants and ground and aircrew NCOs, who were going for a commission. I asked a Sergeant AEO what I should do when taking up my first job: ‘keep your mouth shut and your eyes open’ was his advice and I did my best to follow that. QRs imposed a specific task on warrant officers to guide junior officers and it was accepted generally that pilot officers were still learning and to a certain extent on probation.
On day to day matters, I usually sought advice from an ancient flight sergeant with anything new and I never tried to chuck my weight around except on one occasion when I was taken aside by a senior flight lieutenant who offered a few words of wisdom and it never happened again. I was always prepared to admit I didn’t know something and tried not blunder into the pooh too often. Years later, as a wing commander, I had a bumptious young officer who was trying to lord it over a warrant officer. I said to the officer, something like; “I don’t always do what Mr ‘X’ says I should do but I always listen to his view and if I go in a different direction, I always tell him why”.
In summary, I don’t think officers need to serve a period in the ranks but they do need guidance in their early years and I sometimes wonder if that fact isn’t lost amongst all the fancy management speak and box ticking.
One thing always stands out: ‘treat others as you expect to be treated’.
My wife, a retired sqn ldr, said that when anything difficult needed a decision, she applied the test: 'what will the subsequent Board of Enquiry find'?
Old Duffer
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When was the last time that you actually saw a Pilot Officer? It seems that most JOs spend a minimum of time as a Flying Officer before a very swift promotion to Flight Lieutenant where many of them finish their careers. Not withstanding the financial implications of the rank structure, perhaps it is time for newly qualified officers to start at the bottom again and work their way through the officers' ranks over a period of time. This would at least allow others to see the experience level of the JO and perhaps allow them take a more positive approach to their education.
I like what you're saying Wensleydale. I recall my Boss explaining to me that he was having to take some of my Secondary Duties off me so he could give them to a Flt Lt (whom had arrived through university route) so would have something to report on! 'Time in the Ranks' would no doubt help or deter some wannabe officers but those with any sense and empathy cope, and those without either get taken behind the bike shed or ignored.
I am pretty sure now that it is only a matter of time before a common entry philosophy is being put forward by one of those elements of the RAF "wokery" seeking advancement of their political career recognition within the Service ( and beyond)..
Last edited by Haraka; 20th May 2021 at 12:35.
Cranwell was originally a Royal Naval air station before the formation of the RAF in 1918. Atop the red-brick and Portland stone neo-Georgian Baroque College Hall sits a small lighthouse, which may commemorate these nautical links. It should be noted, though, that the coast is twenty miles away, well over the horizon, even from the top of College Hall. So there is always the possibility that the lighthouse is there to remind officers how they should behave during their careers – it being both brilliant and of no practical use.
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Last time I saw a Pilot Officer was....... today.
Recently finished IOT and about to start Ops training in august.
Recently finished IOT and about to start Ops training in august.
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I did 18 weeks as an AC, as did many others here. The Passing-Out Parade put an end to that experience. However, I could still bumper a Barrack Block floor if necessary.
My real induction to the RAF was in the capable hands of WW2-era Officers and MACR/WOs who pointed me in the right direction. Thanks, gentlemen.
My real induction to the RAF was in the capable hands of WW2-era Officers and MACR/WOs who pointed me in the right direction. Thanks, gentlemen.
In previous life before South Cerney i had done my time doing National Service in Rhodesia. Six months infantry training and two years on the reserve with two days a month continuation, My compatriots had no idea how to prepare a barrack block. Most of them only joined as aircrew on a short service commission because they were liable for two years National Service anyway. After a week or two the Saturday morning inspections were faultless.
In the middle of the course National Service was curtailed and it was established that those that withdrew from the course would not be liable for National Service so they were free to go.
About eighteen on the course when we started ; Eight of us passed out and got our commission.
In the middle of the course National Service was curtailed and it was established that those that withdrew from the course would not be liable for National Service so they were free to go.
About eighteen on the course when we started ; Eight of us passed out and got our commission.
I am pretty sure now that it is only a matter of time before a common entry philosophy is being put forward by one of those elements of the RAF "wokery" seeking advancement of their political career recognition within the Service ( and beyond)..
(No, of course I'm not being serious)
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...c-Command.htmlAlso in The Times, but behind a paywall
"The military could fast-track civilians into a secretive group that manages joint ventures between the British Army, RAF and Royal Navy.
Ministers are considering letting people go straight into Strategic Command so they do not have to enlist in one of the three armed forces first.
Minister for defence personnel and veterans Leo Docherty said Britain needed to evolve quickly to catch up with foreign nations.
The 44-year-old, who got the role last month, said there could be scope for civilians to apply for cyber, space and military intelligence without having served.
The move would mean applicants do not have to pass the rigorous fitness tests the Armed Forces require or learn to fight on a battlefield.
Mr Docherty, who served with the Scots Guards in Iraq and Afghanistan, also said recruits could be older than 55 when they apply.
They could also enlist as senior officers without putting in the yards lower down the ranks."
"The military could fast-track civilians into a secretive group that manages joint ventures between the British Army, RAF and Royal Navy.
Ministers are considering letting people go straight into Strategic Command so they do not have to enlist in one of the three armed forces first.
Minister for defence personnel and veterans Leo Docherty said Britain needed to evolve quickly to catch up with foreign nations.
The 44-year-old, who got the role last month, said there could be scope for civilians to apply for cyber, space and military intelligence without having served.
The move would mean applicants do not have to pass the rigorous fitness tests the Armed Forces require or learn to fight on a battlefield.
Mr Docherty, who served with the Scots Guards in Iraq and Afghanistan, also said recruits could be older than 55 when they apply.
They could also enlist as senior officers without putting in the yards lower down the ranks."
Am I missing something? It is already possible for civilians to take roles in any of the military commands and sometimes to exercise line management of military personnel by joining that very secretive organisation known as the Civil Service. And people regularly join it directly at senior grades. There are many such people running programmes already, and even some acting as capability sponsors having never served a day in uniform. Surely a minister isn't wasting his time considering what is effectively a trivial administrative question of opening some posts in StratCom up to civil servants?
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Avoid imitations
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One would bally well hope not! I mean, it was bad enough when the hallowed towers of Cranwell admitted those frightful bounders who would otherwise have attended that wretched secondary modern place in Bedfordshire. Simply ghastly....
(No, of course I'm not being serious)
(No, of course I'm not being serious)
Pesky “Green Shielders”...
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I was SNCO I/C the Line at a busy fast jet OCU. The work was demanding, constantly juggling balls and trying to stay in control, so that the fly boys got to borrow the jets for a few hours whilst also keeping the FLMs happy.
All was going quite well, until one day we got a baby EngO who was with us until he went for further training. Unfortunately, he decided that sticking around the Line office was the place for him, but rather than stay back and watch what was going on he decided to join in by answering the phone, taking messages etc. That's ok, but what he forgot to do was pass the information on to me or even update the 'plastic brain'. This came to a head one day when I returned to the office and saw that 2 aircraft were late back. Where were they? Nobody knew, OMG. Then Bengo walks in and nautulantly announces that Ops had told him they would be late back, but he didn't tell anyone or even update the plastic brain! My counterpart on the other shift was having similar problems with him so we went and saw the Sengo to see if we could get him banned form the Line. He was sympathetic to our cause and his decision was that I should take him under my wing for a week with the target that by the end of the week he would be running the Line...Brilliant!
So, Monday I start showing him the ropes what to do and what to be aware of, how to allocate the FLMs (man management) etc. By Thursday the Sengo asks how he's doing and we agree to let him run the line by himself on Friday. He did reasonably well apart from falling into a few trapholes like forgetting to pick up the Lox trolley from the Lox Bay and allocating a FLM who was on earlies (and finished at 10am on a Friday) to an 11am take off (he tried to tell him he would have to work late). Fortunately for both, I intervened!
I'd like to think that the Bengo learned from that experience and it helped him in his further career. He certainly kept away from my phone. Sengo found it funny!
All was going quite well, until one day we got a baby EngO who was with us until he went for further training. Unfortunately, he decided that sticking around the Line office was the place for him, but rather than stay back and watch what was going on he decided to join in by answering the phone, taking messages etc. That's ok, but what he forgot to do was pass the information on to me or even update the 'plastic brain'. This came to a head one day when I returned to the office and saw that 2 aircraft were late back. Where were they? Nobody knew, OMG. Then Bengo walks in and nautulantly announces that Ops had told him they would be late back, but he didn't tell anyone or even update the plastic brain! My counterpart on the other shift was having similar problems with him so we went and saw the Sengo to see if we could get him banned form the Line. He was sympathetic to our cause and his decision was that I should take him under my wing for a week with the target that by the end of the week he would be running the Line...Brilliant!
So, Monday I start showing him the ropes what to do and what to be aware of, how to allocate the FLMs (man management) etc. By Thursday the Sengo asks how he's doing and we agree to let him run the line by himself on Friday. He did reasonably well apart from falling into a few trapholes like forgetting to pick up the Lox trolley from the Lox Bay and allocating a FLM who was on earlies (and finished at 10am on a Friday) to an 11am take off (he tried to tell him he would have to work late). Fortunately for both, I intervened!
I'd like to think that the Bengo learned from that experience and it helped him in his further career. He certainly kept away from my phone. Sengo found it funny!