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Should officers spend compulsory time in the ranks?

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Should officers spend compulsory time in the ranks?

Old 12th Apr 2009, 07:52
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Perhaps we should look at the IOT Flt and Sqn Cdrs?

I know they are all now volunteers and are selected before appointment but I can't help feeling that a certain type of character wants to be a an IOT Flt Cdr!

At least in the days of bad-boy tours you might be fortunate to come across an honest thinking and speaking officer who wasn't there for his or her own career progression

Personally, IOT taught me nothing but sword drill and if I had my way SNCO's would be the syndicate mentors with the officers only holding training officer and sqn commander roles, with specialist teaching appointments filled by the most qualified personnel.

Although IOT is getting better it is still not perfect - as witnessed by some of the young fkwits arriving in the mess at the secret Wiltshire airbase!

Thank god that the RAF has moved on from the bad old days of 'us and them'. Todays RAF is about operationally focused teamwork, from the newest LAC on the EngDet to the 1* FOB Cdr.

Officers do not need to spend time in the ranks - they need to be educated in the ways of operating as team and to get the most out of the personnel under their command. Listen to your JNCOs and SNCO and remember that respect has to be earnt and loyalty flows both ways.

As an aside, I do believe that 875's idea about doing a month as Stn Guard Force would open a lot of newly-commissioned officer eyes to the reality of being an airman!
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Old 12th Apr 2009, 08:20
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Why 10 years as an airmen? They were divided equally between two air forces!

I never got into the bracket the first five, and after the second I was commissioned!
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Old 12th Apr 2009, 08:21
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Originally Posted by Blighter Pilot
As an aside, I do believe that 875's idea about doing a month as Stn Guard Force would open a lot of newly-commissioned officer eyes to the reality of being an airman!
Curious, is this not done now? We used to do it during my training and a right PITA it were too. We worked in pairs and had regular route cards to follow that were issued at random. I seem to recall we did a 2-hour shift, can't remember if we did more than one per night, but we still had the bull parades first thing next morning.

Remember being bollcked by cpl plods.

Had the same sh1t's and good guys as instructors.
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Old 12th Apr 2009, 08:52
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Hmmm....I seem to have given 'Oldfella' a bum steer. Ten years an airman in one Royal Air Force would be a long time without promotion, but I served as an airman in two! Going from airman to P/o is, believe me, very much a vertical learning curve! As an airman tradesman, you very much tend to do what you were trained to do, not so as a very junior officer, where everyone is looking for a dogsbody, and you learn as you go , and if you don't crash and burn it's something of a tribute to what you may have learned as an airman, coupled with a determination you might not have known you had. By the time you get to Flt Lt, you've learned a lot, and especially you've learned to listen very carefully to your NCOs but to not, necessarily, take all the advice given. In the end, you have to manage them, the job, and everything else, and that, IMHO, is why I felt never being an NCO was beneficial. That is not to say there are some very fine officers who had been NCOs, just some that don't change their ways too much.

Mind you, I had a few junior officers who need some serious directional advice! Particularly Direct Entry types waving brand new MBAs but with absolutely no air force ethos whatsoever.
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Old 12th Apr 2009, 09:35
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Well, from a slightly different perspective.. Part of my RN Officer training was to spend about 6 weeks at sea effectively as a Junior Rate. We were still Officer Cadets, but no privilege or status came from that and we wore no rank badges. We lived in the same messes, ate the same food and did the same work as the rest of the Junior Rates on board. In fact we did the jobs that they didn't want to do. Included in this was an attachment to a different department each week with an associated acquaint. Each Chief or PO that took charge of us was able to speak to us frankly and without having to call anyone Sir. I learnt a huge amount from them. Every Officer from every branch (including aircrew) did this training. I believe this is still the case.
I didn't enjoy it if I'm honest, but it stuck with me for the rest of my naval career. It made me realise just what I was asking for when I later asked for some of the more soul-destroying tasks to be completed. I realised what it meant to expect a 5 man team to enter a burning compartment. I understood the importance of morale boosters such as good food and breaks from the routine because I had been there and done it. It was invaluable experience and makes for a better officer - without doubt.
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Old 12th Apr 2009, 10:12
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D O G

Top post

To add my twopennorth. I commisioned at 30 years old from having reached sgt by age 26 without having been aircrew or appo. Spending time in the ranks for graduate officers is definitely not the way ahead, I have seen a couple of BEngOs shoes catch fire in the crewroom.

I suggest that education of the freshly minted officer is a better approach. Early attitudes are dominated by experiences at IOT and I would suggest more exposure to the ranks might help instead of being indoctrinated by the experiences of individual flt cdrs who may have done very little in the real world before being sent to instruct. The DS I had (a top bloke) had to give a lesson on the sgts mess having never set foot in one, he handed over the lesson to me with no notice. Bring in guest lecturers for the lessons who do the subject as their day job, many IOT instructors are just reading from a set of course notes not teaching from experience. Having seen at first hand the depth of knowledge and ability that many in the ranks possess it may stand them in good stead. Let IOT students understand that the divide is not class or education based, many rankers do what they do by choice not a lack of education or ability. I have had several airman working for me who have 1st or higher degrees.

The airman tendencies arguments made me smile, the phrase existed in my day. One (graduate) officer was bollocked for having a SNCOs beret and mine was used as an example. I always looked like a drawing pin in a beret, perhaps my head was the wrong shape. Undoubtedly, there are ex-airman who cannot make the transition to officer; not through any lack of ability it seems to be more of a mental blockage. This applies equally to the wives, the transition can be difficult. Additionally, there are university qualified IOT graduates who should not be allowed out on their own, its a normal demographic spread.

regards

retard
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Old 12th Apr 2009, 10:48
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I also remember my first orderly officer. I was still training as a baby nav and in those days OO was a 24hr duty - workday as well as night. One order was to attend fires and take charge.

During lessons there was a fire alarm at a remote MQ. The instructor gave me the nod and I went outside and hitched a ride on a passing fire truck - there was no other way I could have made the 2-3 mile trip.

I duly arrived at the fire as the OIC as a very wet, 18-yr old APO. Give any orders? Offer any advice? Do anything constructive? No, not a blessed thing, but I learnt to let the experts get on with it and learn from them.
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Old 12th Apr 2009, 11:08
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So please tell me what are these Airman tendencies?
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Old 12th Apr 2009, 22:30
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Airman tendencies - as it was explained to me by my Flt Cdr about 8 years ago; is any behaviour unbecoming of a junior officer. I was being pulled apart at the time for saying "cock-up" during a lead on IOT. I was written-up for using "language found in the crew room." The phrase airman tendencies is misleading IMO; you can have graduate displaying un-officer like qualities, yet because of his background he would not be written up as showing airman tendencies. The officer corps is a profession that demands certain standards of behaviour, not a particular class segment.
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Old 13th Apr 2009, 13:23
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Airman Tendencies - "Plastic Sgt coffee boys" etc etc.

Samuel, thank you for explaining the ten years without promotion. I have replied to the PM sent to me by Pontius Navigator and he is well informed as to my thoughts regarding some of his comments. I understand some of the references to "Plastic Sgt's" in airman aircrew roles, however I can assure those who care that many of those "Plastic Sgt's" may not have had time in other areas of the service before graduating for their particular role, but they most certainly would have earned their rank by completion of their basic and specialist training. As for myself, I was a ground engineer who had nearly 12 years in the trade and had been a substantive Sgt for two of those years before I trained as a F/E. Those of my era had similar experience. Despite that fact, there were some in the Sgts' Mess who looked upon me and my peers as "five minute wonders" when we entered the Mess with brevets in place. Thankfully, as others have stated on this forum, most clear thinking people accept that the forces are made up of people of all ranks who all deserve the respect and support of their fellow servicemen and servicewomen. Class has no place in a modern force, respect is what is required. Finally, for airpolice, how many of those NCO pilots who were granted SNCO rank at graduation from pilot training, the same men who fought to save Britian and many of whom paid with their lives, would you have denied entry to the Sgts' Mess?

Last edited by Old Fella; 13th Apr 2009 at 23:36. Reason: Added comment
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Old 14th Apr 2009, 09:38
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Quote:
It is up to his SNCO instructors to ensure that he has a thorough understanding of his position in the world. It follows that the NCO instructor role - Regt and PEd usually - is vital in their initial training.

And not just Regt and PEd. As one recalls it is Appendix 22 to QRs which lists the duties of various NCO ranks. For WOs this includes something along the lines of 'Training junior officers'.
A couple of points if I may:

1. It is Appx 27 to QRs. The lack of backbone in many WOs, coupled with their dismissal of anyones opinion but their own is, for me, a large part of the problem. There is not enough understanding that anyones 1st tour is going to be a steep learing curve and everyone has to learn somewhere. Yes, there will be some bloody-minded individuals who believe that because they have passed IOT and professional trg they know it all, it is down to the WO to educate them otherwise - if necessary. It is not always necessary, particularly for those commisioned later in life (25+) who have the experience and wisdom, coupled with the intelligence and energy to make good leaders in a very short space of time. Those that need greater guidance should be given it, sometimes forcefully, sometimes less so. The greatest disservice is for someone to be dismissed as being an idiot without those with responsibility trying their utmost to develop them.

2. Second point is mess membership. The more the merrier, if I want to sit in my wing backed chair dribbling from various outlets and talking about the good old days I will go on a Saga Holiday. It is the energy and enthusiasm of the younger SNCOs who still have ambition that keeps the Sgts' Messes going.

3. Finally, now that FS's are the Deputy Flt Cdr's at IOT has there been any difference in the quality of Officers coming through the system?
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Old 14th Apr 2009, 10:00
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Self opinionated WO's

Quote:
The lack of backbone in many WOs , coupled with their dismissal of anyone's opinion but their own.


NUFC1892, it surprises me that you have found many WO's lacking in backbone. I can accept that some may, but many? If your claim is correct it says something about those upon whose recommendation these people were promoted. As for some being dismissive of the opinion of others if it was not in accord with their own, that is not restricted to the SNCO ranks.
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Old 14th Apr 2009, 12:44
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In debating this question it may perhaps, be worthwhile to consider why the armed forces need a division between commissioned and non-commissioned or enlisted personnel, and what the required characteristics of each division may be.

Civilian organizations don't need the division, one joins at the bottom and works up (and occasionally down) without clear dividing lines between what characteristics divide managers from staff. Civilian organizations do not have NCOs. Yet the military certainly do need the division. Why? You've been through IOT and the College so you have the tools at hand to work it out for yourselves.
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Old 14th Apr 2009, 12:55
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Originally Posted by Blacksheep
Civilian organizations do not have NCOs. Yet the military certainly do need the division.
I think you are wrong.

Take any manufacturing company with even a handful of workers:

You have the boss/manager or whatever and you have the workers. As the boss many be engaged other tasks there will generally be a chargehand or foreman whose job is to see that work is shared between the workforce. That man is, in effect, the NCO.

There are other groupings, such as a sales team, where the hierarchy may be the manager - (officer) - who sets tasks and targets and the sales team who go do the work. There may be a senior salesman who might cover for the manager when he is on holiday. In this case there is no obvious NCO position.

Was Captain Peacock (Are you being served) the manager (officer) for the floor and Mrs Slocum the leader (SNCO) of the Lingerie section?
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Old 14th Apr 2009, 13:35
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Was Captain Peacock (Are you being served) the manager (officer) for the floor and Mrs Slocum the leader (SNCO) of the Lingerie section?
I don't know. But Young Mr. Grace (Stn Cdr) certainly had some perks attached to his job....

And in any case, so-called 'Class' does still exist; it's just that it's rarely flaunted. It isn't difficult to spot someone who 'simply isn't one of us' whilst recruiting. One doesn't need to ask questions about polo or Daddy's estate (as those of the self-appointed 'lower orders' might opine would be typical subjects) - if the applicant is a thoroughly common 'know wot I mean, mate, innit' oik with neither manners nor respect, 'tis hardly likely that he will be selected for officer training.
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Old 14th Apr 2009, 13:39
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Officers make decisions....

SNCOs ensure that the decisions are carried out.....

The ORs carry them out.

As an "Aircrew Officer", I have spent over 30 years "with the colours" but only been in direct command of personnel for less than 5 years of that time. Therefore we have 2 types of officer - the Aircrew Officer and those who actually lead other people. In my experience, the better officers have been those who have risen from the ranks - especially engineers. However, it is a wate of resource to insist that aircrew have to come from the ranks as we learn our leadership "on the job".

So where do we draw the line? I suggest that the status quo is about right, although the very senior officers all come from the self taught aircrew stream - I think that perhaps this is one sided? Even more so, the multi engine aircrew officer learns to lead by supervision of others on his crew although he may not have line manager authority. It seems perverse that those at the top (the FJ stream) are those with probably the least leadership training, practise and training of all of us. They may be sharp, but havn't got a clue of how to motivate people. Perhaps it shows?
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Old 14th Apr 2009, 14:31
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Originally Posted by Wensleydale
aircrew . . . learn our leadership "on the job".
Agree, although I had several ground tours where I had to deal with airmen. Even at late as 1995 at Waddo I never had to exercise leadership to any great extent. The airmen created no problems nor did the system trouble them.

Only in my last tour did I start having to get muscular - not with the airmen I hasten to add but on their behalf. as OOA stepped up, as manning ramped down, so over-stretch started to bite.

I had an airwoman covering two jobs, for which she got substitution pay and ultimately promotion, but neither her sqn cdr nor her wg cdr would get additional help - she was working a regular 5 day week and often part of 2 days at weekends. I sent her on leave and forced the issue.

The lesson I suppose is one of empathy; you need to know what they have to do and the conditions under which they do it. You then need to take action when resources fail to match the task.

those at the top (the FJ stream) are those with probably the least leadership training, practise and training of all of us
This is possibly the most pertinent post yet. Unfortunately people persons don't seem to reach the top.
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Old 14th Apr 2009, 17:45
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You have the boss/manager or whatever and you have the workers. As the boss many be engaged other tasks there will generally be a chargehand or foreman whose job is to see that work is shared between the workforce. That man is, in effect, the NCO.
Not a good comparison. The shop floor worker becomes a foreman and advances smoothly to Assistant Manager and Manager, eventually perhaps Departmental Director with a staff of several hundred employees. This is not pre-ordained at recruitment and induction. In a civil airline hangar for example, a foreman will make operational decisions for a workforce of around fifty mechanics, technicians, leading hands (JNCOs) and supervisors (NCOs); as a clue, it is generally upon appointment as a Manager that one might take control of a cost centre's budget.
Officers make decisions....

SNCOs ensure that the decisions are carried out.....

The ORs carry them out.
Too trite.

Come on keep trying. Why does the military find it necessary to segregate the officer corps from the other ranks?
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Old 14th Apr 2009, 18:27
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Therefore we have 2 types of officer - the Aircrew Officer and those who actually lead other people
I'd politely disagree with that statement.

Take the Boss of the resident Chinook Flight in Sandpit East. His crews have been shot at everytime they go into a particular area, and yet he stands in front of dozens of aircrew and tells them they are all going in again as a formation, why it's important and how they are going to do it.

He then trots down to see the engineers (as he would, they work for him via the JEngO) and tells them exactly why they need to dig out blind to produce 4 cabs from the current episode of scrapheap challenge. He explains why it important, and how their efforts directly help the squaddie on the ground, who badly needs the aircraft.

I've seen this scene dozens of times, so please don't tell me aircrew officers can't lead others.

What you type on here is a poor substitute for what I have seen with my own eyes.

Last edited by minigundiplomat; 14th Apr 2009 at 19:27.
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Old 14th Apr 2009, 19:06
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Originally Posted by minigundiplomat
don't tell me aircrew officers can't lead others.
Ah, so you are proud after all. I couldn't believe it when you saiid you weren't.

Respect.
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