F3 terminated
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Just to pedantic (partly because it seems to be the way of pprune), terrorism is a tactic used by an adversary or enemy. It is not an enemy we can fight. Hence the futility of the 'Global war on Terrorism' it would be the same as fighting something like SEAD!
Depending on the definition of terrorism one uses, one could argue that the elements of the allies strategic bombing campaign constituted terrorism in that they targeted non-combatants to bring about political change through fear.
Oh and I guess you've missed the irony in the comment about losing the F3 in respect of terrorism.
Depending on the definition of terrorism one uses, one could argue that the elements of the allies strategic bombing campaign constituted terrorism in that they targeted non-combatants to bring about political change through fear.
Oh and I guess you've missed the irony in the comment about losing the F3 in respect of terrorism.
Oh and I guess you've missed the irony in the comment about losing the F3 in respect of terrorism.
Money saved from the F3 could save numerous lives in years to come if the money was used correctly - can you honestly say that about an aircraft that was behind the drag curve from it's conception. Hasn't been deployed in any useful roll and stayed behind the line during the Gulf.
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Hard to believe that the F3 community are the most egotistic of the FJ fraternity. Never could work out why when they have been denied an active role in any conflict since their conception. From an airframe perspective, the RAF to a retrograde step with the F3. Even the Italians wanted rid & they never want to fight!
IMHO, they can't scrap it soon enough, a total waste of tax payers money. If there is any decency out there, push the saved money towards the SH fleet.
IMHO, they can't scrap it soon enough, a total waste of tax payers money. If there is any decency out there, push the saved money towards the SH fleet.
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Pure Pusuit,
You show a level of naivety if you think any savings against this force structure cut can be placed another more deserving cause. Defence has been squeezed for the bigger ticket items and it saddens me to think that all the savings measures soon to be announced could be remedied by at best £500M, or at worst £750M from the treasury. One percent of quantitive easing or a mere drop in the ocean for the banking system. But if you have to make these choices then the vulnerable will perish!
G8D
You show a level of naivety if you think any savings against this force structure cut can be placed another more deserving cause. Defence has been squeezed for the bigger ticket items and it saddens me to think that all the savings measures soon to be announced could be remedied by at best £500M, or at worst £750M from the treasury. One percent of quantitive easing or a mere drop in the ocean for the banking system. But if you have to make these choices then the vulnerable will perish!
G8D
PP - as Land now own the funding line for SH, recent form suggests that any money sent in that direction from a saving on the F3 won't go on anything to do with helicopter.
I'd add that in my dealings with F3 guys over the last decade, only 1 could be described as a bit of a git, while the rest seemed perfectly personable; perhaps I've just been lucky?
xray - it depends on what you think a 'useful role' is; certainly HMG took the view that the F3 served a useful role during the maintenance of the No Fly Zones over Iraq; likewise participation during Bosnia.
Also, ISTR that someone (admittedly, it may have been an F3 mate, but I have a suspicion it wasn't) posted on here a few years ago noting that an F3 had accompanied a GR4 to Baghdad when one of the GR4s in the formation was forced to abort on the way (this during Telic), while in '91 there wasat least one instance where F3s came close to putting the whole tedious 'when was the last time the RAF scored a kill?' line to bed, only for intevention by AWACS (putting Saudi F-15s onto the Mirage F1 formation in lieu of the better-placed F3s) to get in the way (and nearly allow the entire enemy formation to escape, if some are to be believed...)
I'd add that in my dealings with F3 guys over the last decade, only 1 could be described as a bit of a git, while the rest seemed perfectly personable; perhaps I've just been lucky?
xray - it depends on what you think a 'useful role' is; certainly HMG took the view that the F3 served a useful role during the maintenance of the No Fly Zones over Iraq; likewise participation during Bosnia.
Also, ISTR that someone (admittedly, it may have been an F3 mate, but I have a suspicion it wasn't) posted on here a few years ago noting that an F3 had accompanied a GR4 to Baghdad when one of the GR4s in the formation was forced to abort on the way (this during Telic), while in '91 there wasat least one instance where F3s came close to putting the whole tedious 'when was the last time the RAF scored a kill?' line to bed, only for intevention by AWACS (putting Saudi F-15s onto the Mirage F1 formation in lieu of the better-placed F3s) to get in the way (and nearly allow the entire enemy formation to escape, if some are to be believed...)
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I don't think it will happen at all however, it is exactly where the money should be redirected.
Such a shame that the bean counters will no doubt spend it on new chairs Offices in London...
Such a shame that the bean counters will no doubt spend it on new chairs Offices in London...
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The F3 has been a reasonable platform for what it was designed to do: intercept things and find out what they are at range, carrying enough weapons and fuel to stay on task doing that job for a long time. We all know its limitations, but some of its successes are Link 16 (one of the first platforms in the World), ASRAAM, its RWR, and straight line speed. It can still do what it was designed to do (hold Q), whilst Typhoon continues to run up to speed and build pilot numbers.
It probably doesn't need to be as tactically swept up as it used to be apart from 2 things: morale of the force (that includes everyone working on the jet, not just aircrew), and provision of personnel to the Typhoon fleet (again, that includes more than just pilots).
And for the record, it was allowed to go into Iraq and had capabilities which even the "amazing" F-jets lacked.
It probably doesn't need to be as tactically swept up as it used to be apart from 2 things: morale of the force (that includes everyone working on the jet, not just aircrew), and provision of personnel to the Typhoon fleet (again, that includes more than just pilots).
And for the record, it was allowed to go into Iraq and had capabilities which even the "amazing" F-jets lacked.
xray 1,
You'll forgive me, I hope, if I don't take seriously someone who can't spell simple words like 'role' and who is clearly still at the 'Daily Mirror' level of appreciation when it comes to the capabilities of particular platforms.
And who is quite so clueless as to why the F3 (along with the F-14) was held back during Granby.
You must also forgive me if I assume that you are a particularly ignorant and narrow minded cabbage eater, presumably advocating spending only on 'boots and bayonets'.
The need for UK AD was surely highlighted by what happened on 9/11, while the Jaguar could have been a very useful asset in the present theatre, augmenting Harrier and GR4, and spreading the pain of deployments around another FJ community.
The F3 has never been an impressive close in, air-to-air dogfighter in the mould of the Teen series, but it has matured into an extremely effective and useful AD aircraft, and it could quite easily have taken on a broader spectrum of roles (including SEAD) had the will been there, as was demonstrated by No.11 Squadron.
And far from a waste of tax-payers money.
Early withdrawal means a further move away from the five AD squadrons that are widely reckoned to be the bare minimum required to maintain and sustain current UK air defence (and Falklands commitments). The amount saved will be piffling (the running cost of one squadron for less than two years) and it will leave a massive gap in our core capabilities.
Still, as long as there's money left in the kitty for HMS White Elephant and HMS Pointless.
You'll forgive me, I hope, if I don't take seriously someone who can't spell simple words like 'role' and who is clearly still at the 'Daily Mirror' level of appreciation when it comes to the capabilities of particular platforms.
And who is quite so clueless as to why the F3 (along with the F-14) was held back during Granby.
You must also forgive me if I assume that you are a particularly ignorant and narrow minded cabbage eater, presumably advocating spending only on 'boots and bayonets'.
The need for UK AD was surely highlighted by what happened on 9/11, while the Jaguar could have been a very useful asset in the present theatre, augmenting Harrier and GR4, and spreading the pain of deployments around another FJ community.
The F3 has never been an impressive close in, air-to-air dogfighter in the mould of the Teen series, but it has matured into an extremely effective and useful AD aircraft, and it could quite easily have taken on a broader spectrum of roles (including SEAD) had the will been there, as was demonstrated by No.11 Squadron.
And far from a waste of tax-payers money.
Early withdrawal means a further move away from the five AD squadrons that are widely reckoned to be the bare minimum required to maintain and sustain current UK air defence (and Falklands commitments). The amount saved will be piffling (the running cost of one squadron for less than two years) and it will leave a massive gap in our core capabilities.
Still, as long as there's money left in the kitty for HMS White Elephant and HMS Pointless.
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Indeed it did push up north during Telic, a huge air threat existed during that conflict...
Granby on the other hand...
Sorry guys, the airframe is awful and limits tactics massively; although the crews are/were very good with using JTIDS for superior SA and often out foxed the F15 guys, it rarely did much more than delay the slaughter!
Although I won't be sad to see it go, I do feel for the guys who will be left behind on Q for however long it takes to get the F2 up north; that really is a sh*t sandwich!
Granby on the other hand...
Sorry guys, the airframe is awful and limits tactics massively; although the crews are/were very good with using JTIDS for superior SA and often out foxed the F15 guys, it rarely did much more than delay the slaughter!
Although I won't be sad to see it go, I do feel for the guys who will be left behind on Q for however long it takes to get the F2 up north; that really is a sh*t sandwich!
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You'll forgive me, I hope, if I don't take seriously someone who can't spell simple words like 'role' and who is clearly still at the 'Daily Mirror' level of appreciation when it comes to the capabilities of particular platforms.
AIDU,
I daresay that I still have more flying hours than you, and more stick time in military jets than you have.
Now where's the pis.sing contest gif when you need it.
Archimedes,
Indeed they should.....!
I daresay that I still have more flying hours than you, and more stick time in military jets than you have.
Now where's the pis.sing contest gif when you need it.
Archimedes,
Indeed they should.....!
Suspicion breeds confidence
Jacko,
We just don't need it anymore. Its redundant like the rest of the Typhoon buy. Roll-on true expeditionary capability in the next decade.
We just don't need it anymore. Its redundant like the rest of the Typhoon buy. Roll-on true expeditionary capability in the next decade.
What a load of .......
I have read / followed PPrune for years, and from time to time it makes me laugh. I have never felt any urge to post or register, just enjoy a bit of occasional banter or jokes. Today that changed however...
As military aircrew it's pretty upsetting when people voice strong opinions on something they know absolutely NOTHING about! I should laugh at these idiots, but the news that the F3 is to be aggressively reduced is no joke.
Firstly - lets deal with the misconceptions. ANY genuine fast air aircrew will tell you that the F3 is not just a competent AD platform but that it is still very relevant and capable. Consider the 'stats' of multinational exercises like TLP and you will find that the F3 is only slightly bettered by the F15 (that includes f18 and f16 MLU's). If you don't believe that, then speak to any of the F22 pilots who have worked with the Leuchars Crews on the last Red Flag Ex in Feb 09. The F3 performed exceptionally. F3 has JTIDS, ASRAAM, AMRAAM etc - is NOT redundant.
Secondly - bare in mind that there are hundreds of engineers who work hard 24 7 365 to provide a QRA service at Leuchars. They do the job quietly, without fuss and to a high standard. Not only will the news that came last week cause a huge amount of stress for the support personnel at Leuchars, but their families will also be very stressed about the difficult times ahead.
In summary, everyone has opinions, and that's fantastic. But please consider what you are writing before you post. Ignorance and stupidity may be bliss for you - but it can, and does, upset those of us that work hard to provide a service to HMG.
In particular I am posting in reference to : xray1, pp and navaleye.
As military aircrew it's pretty upsetting when people voice strong opinions on something they know absolutely NOTHING about! I should laugh at these idiots, but the news that the F3 is to be aggressively reduced is no joke.
Firstly - lets deal with the misconceptions. ANY genuine fast air aircrew will tell you that the F3 is not just a competent AD platform but that it is still very relevant and capable. Consider the 'stats' of multinational exercises like TLP and you will find that the F3 is only slightly bettered by the F15 (that includes f18 and f16 MLU's). If you don't believe that, then speak to any of the F22 pilots who have worked with the Leuchars Crews on the last Red Flag Ex in Feb 09. The F3 performed exceptionally. F3 has JTIDS, ASRAAM, AMRAAM etc - is NOT redundant.
Secondly - bare in mind that there are hundreds of engineers who work hard 24 7 365 to provide a QRA service at Leuchars. They do the job quietly, without fuss and to a high standard. Not only will the news that came last week cause a huge amount of stress for the support personnel at Leuchars, but their families will also be very stressed about the difficult times ahead.
In summary, everyone has opinions, and that's fantastic. But please consider what you are writing before you post. Ignorance and stupidity may be bliss for you - but it can, and does, upset those of us that work hard to provide a service to HMG.
In particular I am posting in reference to : xray1, pp and navaleye.
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I agree with everything you had to say. When I have met people from the F-3 force I found them a great bunch. I felt very angry when I heard these early retirement plans from the scum bag cowards we call a government! It reminded me so much of the end of the Jaguar and SHAR.
I wish you all the best for the future and also for some good flying and hopefully deployments in the future ie Maple Flag. Typical of this crap country to ditch a plane with years of life left in it!
I wish you all the best for the future and also for some good flying and hopefully deployments in the future ie Maple Flag. Typical of this crap country to ditch a plane with years of life left in it!
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Pure Pursuit:
Nothing like an uninformed opinion to add to the debate!
Hard to believe that the F3 community are the most egotistic of the FJ fraternity. Never could work out why when they have been denied an active role in any conflict since their conception. From an airframe perspective, the RAF to a retrograde step with the F3. Even the Italians wanted rid & they never want to fight!
IMHO, they can't scrap it soon enough, a total waste of tax payers money. If there is any decency out there, push the saved money towards the SH fleet.
IMHO, they can't scrap it soon enough, a total waste of tax payers money. If there is any decency out there, push the saved money towards the SH fleet.
...
Clearly money had to be saved from the MOD's budget, and the F3 FEAR (Force Elements At Readiness) is a sensible log term decision. The scale of the drawdown however is a surprise to many.
That said, I wonder if the crews from Leuchars will still be allowed to participate in Maple Flag this year, as a result of the drawdown?
That said, I wonder if the crews from Leuchars will still be allowed to participate in Maple Flag this year, as a result of the drawdown?
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"In summary, everyone has opinions, and that's fantastic. But please consider what you are writing before you post. Ignorance and stupidity may be bliss for you - but it can, and does, upset those of us that work hard to provide a service to HMG.
In particular I am posting in reference to : xray1, pp and navaleye"
In particular I am posting in reference to : xray1, pp and navaleye"
So I guess it doesn't count when people shout "cut the white elephant carriers" or the remaining harrier force! Because those dedicated men and women who work day and night ensuring that the UK can deploy a CVS strike carrier and decent CAS aren't the same as the RAF folk? The Vinis / Harriers probably have 10 years max in them, after that (and with no replacement) all that valuable human capital is lost, along with a genuinely useful capability. That’s thousands of peoples lives affected. But no one gives a toss when Jacko slams their careers into the trash can. In fact, on this very thread I think you’ll find that navaleye was only responding to one such emotive contribution by Jacko.
Please, if you want to sit on the high ground and preach, you better make sure it's to the whole congregation.
It’s clear that a battle has been fought within the MOD because of a lack of resources. JFH, which is actually fighting in a war, versus the F3 which isn’t. Once again the government has forced the services to fight amongst themselves because they haven’t provided enough money. Once again finding funding for an immediate need has increased risk for the long term. That is something to be angry about.
Please, if you want to sit on the high ground and preach, you better make sure it's to the whole congregation.
It’s clear that a battle has been fought within the MOD because of a lack of resources. JFH, which is actually fighting in a war, versus the F3 which isn’t. Once again the government has forced the services to fight amongst themselves because they haven’t provided enough money. Once again finding funding for an immediate need has increased risk for the long term. That is something to be angry about.
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Does Lakenheath maintain a QRA?
On the F3 capability point, I did meet an F15 pilot once who clearly thought the F3's capabilities were pretty laughable, but that was 8 or 9 years ago.
On the F3 capability point, I did meet an F15 pilot once who clearly thought the F3's capabilities were pretty laughable, but that was 8 or 9 years ago.