Re-introduction of Commissioning opportunities for NCA
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Gander
Posts: 105
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The only difference is PAS - L22 for NCO and L35 for Officers; this looks as if there will be a change soon (L28 for NCO)
Hi Gang;
Thought it was Level 20 (Hey Ho)...and what's this vicious rumour about L28???
Regards;
MoG
Hi Gang;
Thought it was Level 20 (Hey Ho)...and what's this vicious rumour about L28???
Regards;
MoG
Last edited by mayorofgander; 19th Mar 2009 at 23:15. Reason: .
Not all officers can get to L35, only pilots. Other Officer aircrew trades have different capped maximum levels of attainment, for me it will be L30.
As for talk of L28 for SNCO aircrew (and I'm not saying they don't deserve it), that seems to contradict the concept (as supposedly pushed by the NAO) that SNCO aircrew will be cheaper!? There won't be much of a saving in terms of the difference between L35 and L28...
As for talk of L28 for SNCO aircrew (and I'm not saying they don't deserve it), that seems to contradict the concept (as supposedly pushed by the NAO) that SNCO aircrew will be cheaper!? There won't be much of a saving in terms of the difference between L35 and L28...
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Wiltshire
Age: 58
Posts: 596
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All of this is true but you need to look at the wider piece. If a SNCO does time served then this is a good argument - quite expensive if taken as a single point.
If you add in the training burden for Pilot Officers (IOT and flying trg) who do only 6 or 16 then it adds up to a saving. A steady wage is easier to manage on a 3 year basis (gov way!!) but a roller coaster training pipeline is not easy to manage - remember the MFTS piece in this - a Civilian company with budgets fixed well in advance of the moment - might be a factor.
NCA Commissioning is great in branch and a full career path is a must but it gets very tight at the top, a better way might be to allow them (the great) to move within a band associated e.g. not on the ground (not that ATC/ground trades can’t apply – I know they are out there and quite highly qualified at that)
L28 would be used as a retention incentive, as PAS is at the moment, but I think it is to keep Army SNCO AH pilots in the main; not a bad thing if it helps others but must be bought into the mix of this thread.
If you add in the training burden for Pilot Officers (IOT and flying trg) who do only 6 or 16 then it adds up to a saving. A steady wage is easier to manage on a 3 year basis (gov way!!) but a roller coaster training pipeline is not easy to manage - remember the MFTS piece in this - a Civilian company with budgets fixed well in advance of the moment - might be a factor.
NCA Commissioning is great in branch and a full career path is a must but it gets very tight at the top, a better way might be to allow them (the great) to move within a band associated e.g. not on the ground (not that ATC/ground trades can’t apply – I know they are out there and quite highly qualified at that)
L28 would be used as a retention incentive, as PAS is at the moment, but I think it is to keep Army SNCO AH pilots in the main; not a bad thing if it helps others but must be bought into the mix of this thread.
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Where the heart belongs
Age: 55
Posts: 413
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes
on
2 Posts
PS, Sideshow Bob, If you can't be arsed to get your Flt Sgt up (you said it ) why do you think you'd be competetive to be given a pilot slot? A little bit of work would be reqired mate.
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: The Crucible
Age: 55
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
[QUOTE]The problem with the current promotion system, even after all the tinkering, is that if you one of the breed who makes up for a lack of ability with doing all the bosses pet projects and odd jobs then you will probably get promoted. If you are absolutely brilliant at your job but don't do the after hours stuff then you definitely won't.[/QUOTE]
Couldn't agree more.
Couldn't agree more.
Fly-Friendly
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Around the middle
Posts: 141
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"The problem with the current promotion system, even after all the tinkering, is that if you one of the breed who makes up for a lack of ability with doing all the bosses pet projects and odd jobs then you will probably get promoted"
Sounds like the talk of dead wood NCA who is bitter and twisted and will never make the cut to be a FS and that is coming from an above average NCA FS who doesn't do pet projects and odd jobs and is professional as a SNCO and in his role as NC Aircrew.
Heads down for in coming !!
Sounds like the talk of dead wood NCA who is bitter and twisted and will never make the cut to be a FS and that is coming from an above average NCA FS who doesn't do pet projects and odd jobs and is professional as a SNCO and in his role as NC Aircrew.
Heads down for in coming !!
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Oxon
Age: 66
Posts: 1,942
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"The problem with the current promotion system, even after all the tinkering, is that if you one of the breed who makes up for a lack of ability with doing all the bosses pet projects and odd jobs then you will probably get promoted"
Sounds like sound reasoning from an individual who has properly assessed the situation and made his own decision accordingly, and that comes from an above average Master who, because of the pension trap chose to jump through all the expected hoops to gain promotion
Maybe someone needs to do his CMT Pt 2 in order to brush up on his management skills
Sounds like sound reasoning from an individual who has properly assessed the situation and made his own decision accordingly, and that comes from an above average Master who, because of the pension trap chose to jump through all the expected hoops to gain promotion
Maybe someone needs to do his CMT Pt 2 in order to brush up on his management skills
Last edited by Seldomfitforpurpose; 20th Mar 2009 at 17:59.
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Where the heart belongs
Age: 55
Posts: 413
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes
on
2 Posts
Sounds like the talk of dead wood NCA who is bitter and twisted and will never make the cut to be a FS and that is coming from an above average NCA FS who doesn't do pet projects and odd jobs and is professional as a SNCO and in his role as NC Aircrew.
Please explain why I must be bitter and twisted to want to put my family before my job. (By the way how many secondary duties where you doing when you got your promotion? Come on be honest now
)
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Just down the road from ISK
Posts: 328
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Gnd
I believe that this is only a finger in the hole to stop the NAO getting its way - NCO Aircrew (front as well as rear). There is no reason (no Nuke) to pay exorbitant wages to non position holding Commissioned Officers when an NCO can do a better job at less cost - it has been proved to work. Officers for the Exec positions - NCOs to give long return of flying duty; cheaply!!!!
It has been done before and looks to be inbound - re-treads are just as expensive!!!
It has been done before and looks to be inbound - re-treads are just as expensive!!!
On a serious note though, it would only cost less until the airline industry picks up again - then all the NCA pilots would demand more cash to stop them leaving! Bu99er!!
Fly-Friendly
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Around the middle
Posts: 141
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sideshow
reading between the lines you complain about the system which you obviously know so well but refuse to do anything about it! As a professional NCA and a SNCO you surely realise these extra duties come with the rank?
I had only 2 secondary duties on promotion which I still have.
reading between the lines you complain about the system which you obviously know so well but refuse to do anything about it! As a professional NCA and a SNCO you surely realise these extra duties come with the rank?
I had only 2 secondary duties on promotion which I still have.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: St Annes
Age: 68
Posts: 638
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sideshow Bob,
I'm with you mate. R21 - assuming SSB isn't making it all up (and I see no reason to assume he is) then he doesn't sound much like dead wood to me.
Oddly enough the standards unit (or whatever they're called these days) are pretty good at evaluating the professional capabilities of those they spend the week beasting... but secondary duties, and prowess at sports, have always (until I left at least) been the route to promotion - FS ought to be based on getting a B cat, MACr resulting from displaying good leadership, which on the kipper fleet would mean you were a B cat FS lead and you ran a good team. (Other fleets etc will surely be able to suggest a sensible way to assess leadership that involves the actual work done rather than being Akela of the local Cub scout pack).
It's even more annoying when you see people on ground tours, who have perhaps successfully evaded a sqn for surprisingly long periods of time, getting promoted and/or commissioned....so here's another radical idea, no promotion if you aren't on a sqn....
Commissiomned NCO's - the good ones - should be considered as either 'people who needed longer to mature, but managed it' or 'people who were incorrectly assessed first time round'. Both should be very capable, and I don't honestly see why they shouldn't rise as far as anyone else - perhaps a surprise to some who aren't familiar with NCO aircrew but the ones I flew with weren't that bad at tactics, current affairs, geopolitics, common sense (often by the bucket load) etc - what else do you want in a senior officer on a battlefield? I've known a lot of officer and NCO aircrew, I didn't find them all that different - you had a similar mix of intelligence, common sense, knowledge, integrity, backbone.... both groups have their kippers (2 faced and spineless), both have people who could run the RAF frankly, given the experience.
I'm with you mate. R21 - assuming SSB isn't making it all up (and I see no reason to assume he is) then he doesn't sound much like dead wood to me.
Oddly enough the standards unit (or whatever they're called these days) are pretty good at evaluating the professional capabilities of those they spend the week beasting... but secondary duties, and prowess at sports, have always (until I left at least) been the route to promotion - FS ought to be based on getting a B cat, MACr resulting from displaying good leadership, which on the kipper fleet would mean you were a B cat FS lead and you ran a good team. (Other fleets etc will surely be able to suggest a sensible way to assess leadership that involves the actual work done rather than being Akela of the local Cub scout pack).
It's even more annoying when you see people on ground tours, who have perhaps successfully evaded a sqn for surprisingly long periods of time, getting promoted and/or commissioned....so here's another radical idea, no promotion if you aren't on a sqn....
Commissiomned NCO's - the good ones - should be considered as either 'people who needed longer to mature, but managed it' or 'people who were incorrectly assessed first time round'. Both should be very capable, and I don't honestly see why they shouldn't rise as far as anyone else - perhaps a surprise to some who aren't familiar with NCO aircrew but the ones I flew with weren't that bad at tactics, current affairs, geopolitics, common sense (often by the bucket load) etc - what else do you want in a senior officer on a battlefield? I've known a lot of officer and NCO aircrew, I didn't find them all that different - you had a similar mix of intelligence, common sense, knowledge, integrity, backbone.... both groups have their kippers (2 faced and spineless), both have people who could run the RAF frankly, given the experience.
Fly-Friendly
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Around the middle
Posts: 141
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quick question:
Does anyone think this will increase the number of NCA applying for ground commissions. ie apply for WSOp commission sucessfull well done you return to your respective force after IOT or unsucessfull take a gnd commission as a second choice?
Personally I see more people taking commissions either flying (if your one of the lucky 10) or on the gnd but this will increase the out flow from the NCA Cadre.
Just a thought.............................
Does anyone think this will increase the number of NCA applying for ground commissions. ie apply for WSOp commission sucessfull well done you return to your respective force after IOT or unsucessfull take a gnd commission as a second choice?
Personally I see more people taking commissions either flying (if your one of the lucky 10) or on the gnd but this will increase the out flow from the NCA Cadre.
Just a thought.............................
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
davejb
'MACr resulting from displaying good leadership, which on the kipper fleet would mean you were a B cat FS lead and you ran a good team.'
A nice idea in principal and I agree 100% with this assumption! However in the world that has been created by our lords and masters, its a sad fact that an average or poor FS Lead is more likely to get promoteed over a good one if he is doing all the 'additional duties' that seem to be the prerequisite for promotion.
The same also applies to being assimilated to PA Spine, although I would have thought the clue was in the title for this one
'MACr resulting from displaying good leadership, which on the kipper fleet would mean you were a B cat FS lead and you ran a good team.'
A nice idea in principal and I agree 100% with this assumption! However in the world that has been created by our lords and masters, its a sad fact that an average or poor FS Lead is more likely to get promoteed over a good one if he is doing all the 'additional duties' that seem to be the prerequisite for promotion.
The same also applies to being assimilated to PA Spine, although I would have thought the clue was in the title for this one
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Wiltshire
Age: 58
Posts: 596
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: 4 Civvy Street. Nowhere-near-a-base. The Shires.
Posts: 559
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Aircrew Sgt "Pilot"
not so good at rank tab recce eh Gnd...
this young lad though not a pilot is also not a FS
some GSK revision required for you...get yourself down to Force Development Training ASAP
CS
this young lad though not a pilot is also not a FS
some GSK revision required for you...get yourself down to Force Development Training ASAP
CS
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Wiltshire
Age: 58
Posts: 596
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well done Camel, 1st place in the 'I'm a tw*t for stating the obvious' Oh how I wish I could recognise Pilots and RAF rank after 20+ years - get some time in and a sense of perspective. It was Ironcalism. (you’ll be able to tell me how silly I am for not knowing English now)
PS it was the Sun so there is no way it would be true - bet you didn't know that hey?????
PS it was the Sun so there is no way it would be true - bet you didn't know that hey?????
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: 4 Civvy Street. Nowhere-near-a-base. The Shires.
Posts: 559
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
pardon????
sorry Gnd, didnt quite understand your post - which of us is a t**t???
something else aircrew are taught to avoid is ambiguity!!
The SUN never said he was a FS...you did!
Oh and get some bl**dy time in yourself young 'un
something else aircrew are taught to avoid is ambiguity!!
The SUN never said he was a FS...you did!
Oh and get some bl**dy time in yourself young 'un
Last edited by camelspyyder; 21st Mar 2009 at 20:28. Reason: ironic spelling mistakes