Collision avoidance - Fast jets vs light aircraft

[TSR22]

Hi all,

Firstly, let me state - I'm not a fast jet jockey, so I hope the mods will bear with me!

As a light aeroplane pilot, I wondered how you fast jet guys, roaring around at low level avoid clutter such as ourselves?
I'm realistic enough to accept that aircraft such as Tucano probably don't possess TCAS or the military equivalent (is there such a thing?), but I wondered - can you Tornado/Typhoon jockeys see us before we see you? There have been odd incidents in the past, and since I'm about to do some photography on Friday, It just got me wondering....

I'm sure you could shoot us down, but can you avoid us if we are in the way?

P.S. I hope that doesn't sound like I'm having a go - I'm not - I'm just curious (and I wish I had the chance to fly what you guys are driving!!!!)

Thanks in advance!

(I know, TSR22 isn't correct - it was the nearest I could get...

[TurbineTooHot]

Tis mostly the good old fashioned lookout that keeps us apart. Absolutely hammered into us from the off. And, as it happens, Tucano is the only one that does have TCAS. What would a civvie be doing down at 250' MSD anyway?

[ADVOCATE_56]

""and since I'm about to do some low level photography on Friday, It just got me wondering.... ""

I can think of at least two fatal accidents caused by PPLs doing precisely this including the mid-air over Wales which killed the Jaguar Wg Cdr who had undegone transplant surgery and got himself back to flying fitness. FWIIW my advice as a former air trafficker would be don't do it.

Now as a lawyer I would suggest that if the photography is in any sense commercial it is air work and beyond the privileges of a PPL; if it is "low level" can you maintain ANO mandated separation from persons, structures, objects?

Standing by to get flamed...........

[scottyhs]

Advocate 56 Are you sure this chap doesnt mean he will be taking photos of military aircraft AT low level???

[Wee Jock McPlop]

Not a fast jet jockey, merely ATC. However, if you are carrying out aerial photography, particularly at low level, I would strongly advise you (assuming that you have not already done so) to make use of the CANP provided for precisely for these purposes. The system is there to notify users of the military low flying system of activities such as aerial survey work, pipeline inspections etc. It even provides a freephone number for you to use.

The system was set up because of previous high-profile mid-air/near misses in which light civi aircraft were brought into conflict with traffic in the low flying system. I cannot readily remember the exact details of the incidents, but the results were not nice for those involved.

I would do some research on what you can/cannot do - as has already been stated. Gash c..ing around in the Low Flying System taking photos will only get you into a whole heap of trouble.

WJMcP

[Jackonicko]

But you're not so f*cking stupid that you'd be taking photos while also acting as the handling pilot, I trust, TSR22?

Because that would be a gross dereliction of the standards of airmanship that even the most witless PPL would have.

And not doing so (in the case of the worthless, imbecilic cretin flying the Cessna 152 at Carno) proved suicidal, and, more seriously, killed a far better man than he was or would ever have been, as alluded to in Advocate's post above.

RIP John Mardon, and thank goodness that Bill P was spared!

In my mind, as a current PPL myself, I'd suggest to you that you have no business anywhere below 500 ft in a civil light aircraft, and should really remain above 1,000 ft. The world is not there for your convenience, and your desire to take a few pictures is not sufficient justification for what you propose to do.

If you must do so, then file, and make sure that the duties of photographer and handling pilot are rigorously divided. This is not something that anyone should be contemplating solo.

[ADVOCATE_56]

"" Advocate 56 Are you sure this chap doesnt mean he will be taking photos of military aircraft AT low level??? ""

No I am not "sure" - but making a fairly reasonable assumption based on the words used by TSR22. It would appear I am not alone in that.

As I now recall it, the second mid-air was Tornado GR v Cessna over Nottinghamshire and, as at Carno, solo PPL holder acting both as handling pilot and photographer. A 100% fatality rate amongst Cessna pilots involved in the two incidents.

Jackonicko makes my point more directly than I.

[Wee Jock McPlop]

TSR22,

Jackonico and Advocate_56 have explained/rammed the message home and rightly so. The point about you flying solo, low level and photographing at the same time did not enter into my thinking during my first post, because no-one would be so stupid as to do that. Would they TSR22.........?

WJMcP

P.S Heard the story about someone who tried the above, got target fixated and promptly flew themself into the ground. So it would be stupid for so many reasons.

[K.Whyjelly]

Makes for very sobering reading.............

http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/cms_resou...0G-BMHI%20.pdf

Stay out of the low flying system;

In the United Kingdom, military fixed wing aircraft are considered to be low flying when they are flying
below 2000ft. Helicopters and propeller driven light aircraft are regarded as low flying when operating below
500ft. Fixed wing aircraft (except propeller driven light aircraft) are required to keep a strict minimum separation
distance (msd) of 250ft between the aircraft and the ground or any other object (trees, electricity pylons etc). For
less experienced aircrew this is increased to 500ft (msd). The Ministry of Defence authorizes a small amount of
low flying by fixed wing aircraft between 250ft (msd) and 100ft(msd), referred to as Operational Low Flying (see
paragraph 36 for further details) but this is restricted to three designated Tactical Training Areas (TTAs) and which
are described in further detail at paragraph 13. As a result of the review of helicopter low flying training (referred
to in the Summary) the normal minimum operating height for helicopters is now 100ft (above ground level)
however, they are permitted to operate at lower heights (and down to ground level) under certain circumstances.
7. The policy and regulation of all military low flying in the UK
is controlled by the Directorate of Air Staff (DAS) in the Ministry of
Defence, London, and administered by the Low Flying Operations
Squadron based at RAF Wittering. Users of the low flying system must
make a booking with Low Flying Booking Cell (LFBC), (part of the
Low Flying Operations Squadron) in advance of using the system (hence
the reference to “booked low flying” in the body of this publication).

[TSR22]

Thanks for the replies... understandably some obvious strong feelings out there..

Just to clarify (perhaps I should have already done that) - my version of low level obviously differs from yours!! I will be more than obeying the "no aircraft shall fly any closer to....etc" rule - I would never descend lower than 500ft and more likely shall stay at 1000ft agl (lower photos don't work anyway - not in my limited experience) - I have seen jets at that level. In any case, I normally buzz around above 2500 (and usually at an odd level to avoid anyone else!) Secondly - I will have two other people on board taking the shots (they are of a house - a suprise gift for a friend..)
Naturally I will be letting ATC know what we are doing - and also transponding as usual. In any case, it won't take long! My job will be to talk to ATC and keep a look out for you guys!!!!

Suprised that you (Tornado/Typhoon jockeys) don't have a TCAS - especially when you have to detect aircraft BVR!!

Let me reassure you that I will be exercising the best airmanship - I don't want to be responsible for hurting or inconveniencing anyone!

Thanks again!

[Jackonicko]

Sounds like a good airman making proper preparation, in that case. Though I'd question the need for the extra weight of a second phot......... unless you get one phot helping with the lookout while the other phot is shooting.

High shutter speeds, avoiding any contact between camera/lens/phot's arm and cockpit interior will help. A polarising filter might help with any haze, too.

(And I'd suggest that circuit height - as long as you're nowhere near anyone's circuit - might work better than 2,000 ft and above). 750-800 ft might keep you above mil, and below other PPLs.

Good luck, sorry to have seemed 'forceful' before.

[Pontius Navigator]

Originally Posted by TSR22

Suprised that you (Tornado/Typhoon jockeys) don't have a TCAS - especially when you have to detect aircraft BVR!!

Oddly enough the enemy don't have TCAS either. They often have IFF but generally don't have it switched on. Where detection is required we generally use primary radar.

Not all fast-jets are seeking to detect aircraft BVR - Harrier and GR4s tend not to detect other than to avoid detection.

However what you have not said is when or where your low flying is to take place. That would be useful information to put out. BTW, Saturday would be better.

[TSR22]

No probs Jackonico - I can understand where you are coming from - especially if you've lost a friend that way.

I agree that there is no substitute for safety and that is why I posted (and I was curious!!)

P.S. I had two F15d's get close about a year ago (my version of close was probably about 1-2 miles) - ATC didn't warn me until they had gone past (I was over 5000ft and they were "manouvering"). I saw them before ATC talked, but it is difficult to get out of the way when things are travelling at that speed. I also watched from afar just months ago as a Typhoon (I presume), did a zoom climb out near Melton Mowbry. I'm just making the point that I'm aware that fast things also fly above 250ft and that they are as difficult to spot as us snails!!!

P.P.S. Just to answer the last post: this Friday 1430 (for about 5 mins) about 5nm north of the Trent Falls area (Humber Estuary) - Newport Village. Not Below 1000ft. I will transit to/from at 2600ft. I plan to begin a steady circling descent 500ft/min to take pictures before levelling at 1000ft and anticipate talking to Doncaster Radar on 126.225 I don't intend to get in anyone's way - sorry it couldn't be the weekend (work commitments..)

[WorkingHard]

What would a civvie be doing down at 250' MSD anyway? Have you not considered that it happens twice in every flight (t/o and landing) and not always at major airports which are well signposted. There are of course many grass strips around which are on the maps but are not always avoided.

[Flugplatz]

Jeez! what planetoid are you orbiting Jackonicko? perfectly legal and safe if done the right way; low-level doesn't belong to the RAF I am afraid, even if you would wish it so.

Flug

[Wee Jock McPlop]

A Little Help I Hope

TSR22,

The following is taken from the CAA website Guide To Visual Flight Rules in the UK. It may or may not help, but at least the Low Flying System users will know that you are there.

WJMcP

Low-Level Civil Aircraft Notification Procedures (CANP)

Introduction

Many military and civil aircraft operate in Class G Airspace below 2000ft AGL, where ground radio and radar coverage is not always
available to assist pilots in avoiding collisions. Collision avoidance must necessarily, therefore, be based on the 'see and avoid' principle,
assisted as far as possible by information on known activity. Whereas a variety of civil aviation activities take place within this airspace,
military activity consists mainly of low flying training.

It is not practicable to obtain and disseminate traffic information on all civil flights below 2000ft AGL, nor is it possible to disseminate details
of military low level flights within the UK Low Flying System (UKLFS) to civil operators. Nevertheless, the greatest conflict of interests occurs
at or below 1000ft AGL where the majority of military low level operations take place and where civil aircraft may be engaged upon
activities, as defined at paragraph below and overleaf, which might inhibit pilot look-out or reduce aircraft manoeuvrability. In addition,
certain recreational and other civil flying activity, away from licensed aerodromes, needs to be considered.

A system exists to collect information on civil aerial activities for distribution to military operators to assist in flight planning. This system is
known as the Low Level Civil Aircraft Notification Procedure (CANP).
Before commencing any low flying sortie, military pilots receive a comprehensive brief on all factors likely to affect their flight, including
relevant CANP details. Hence, maximum participation in CANP by those planning to conduct the qualifying activities is essential if full
benefit is to be obtained from the procedure.

Pilots/operators, or their representatives, intending to embark upon aerial activities described below should notify details of the flights to the
Low Flying Booking Cell (LFBC) at the London Air Traffic Control Centre (Military) – LATCC(Mil). For the purposes of CANP, direct-dial,
Freephone and Freefax facilities are available during these hours:

Monday to Thursday 0700 – 2300 (local);
Friday 0700 – 1700 (local).

Email or Fax notification is preferred for CANP requests as this allows the LFBC to email, ‘faxback’ or telephone confirmation of fax receipt
and issue a reference number to the aircraft operating authority. Contact numbers are as follows:

Fax: [phone]
Tel: [phone]
Email : [email protected]

[Fox_4]

Wow how unsurprised am I that one innocent question from a guy that is genuinely intersted, gets so many armchair "experts" berating him for wanting to take some pictures.

I ask ANY FJ pilot if he can seriousely say they dont have a picture taken by themselves, probably of themselves! while they were in command of their aircraft.

How about some answers that dont involve "you will spontaneously combust and hit the 12 ship of GRs if you go below 1000`". Just look out and use a rdr service if its available. He has as much right to fly in the UK FIR as any military jet even if he only has 80 hours. This has got to be the most unfriendly and useless place to ask a question out of any of the forums. I would have hoped he would get a far more professional answer than those jumped to conclusions above.

[Deeday]

Link to AAIB report

Originally Posted by K.Whyjelly

Makes for very sobering reading.............
http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/cms_resou...0G-BMHI%20.pdf

That link is broken. I guess you meant this one.

Cheers.

Deeday

[BluntM8]

"you will spontaneously combust and hit the 12 ship of GRs if you go below 1000`"

I can confidently assure you that hitting a 12-ship of GR4 is most unlikey....

Unless you taxy into the rects shed.

[philrigger]

[QUOTE]What would a civvie be doing down at 250' MSD anyway?[/QUOTE]

What about Crop Sprayers?