Harrier dispute between Navy and RAF chiefs sees Army 'marriage counsellor' called in
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Norman S.F & Finnpog,
Cannot agree more.
I personally saw the reasons why the Harrier 2 / now GR9 doesn't have a gun; a semi- political move to fit a trendier 25mm 'improved' Aden cannon.
Just by coincidence, BAe had recently taken over Royal Ordnance, who were big on talk, but results proved different - I photographed the thing blowing itself to bits long before any shell might meet an enemy - mind you, the hail of shrapnel from the disintegrating gun may well have put one attacker off !
I'm personally sure an original 30mm Aden could have been fitted, or the USMC GAU-12 gatling with gun the one side, ammo' the other - but that would have meant - gasp - admitting to a mistake !
The gunpod positions are used for medium altitude targetting systems now, which are reportedly very good; however I can't help thinking ( I've not been there ) that a powerful strafing a la A-10 with modern avionics & guidance systems would cheer up the troops no end !
Cannot agree more.
I personally saw the reasons why the Harrier 2 / now GR9 doesn't have a gun; a semi- political move to fit a trendier 25mm 'improved' Aden cannon.
Just by coincidence, BAe had recently taken over Royal Ordnance, who were big on talk, but results proved different - I photographed the thing blowing itself to bits long before any shell might meet an enemy - mind you, the hail of shrapnel from the disintegrating gun may well have put one attacker off !
I'm personally sure an original 30mm Aden could have been fitted, or the USMC GAU-12 gatling with gun the one side, ammo' the other - but that would have meant - gasp - admitting to a mistake !
The gunpod positions are used for medium altitude targetting systems now, which are reportedly very good; however I can't help thinking ( I've not been there ) that a powerful strafing a la A-10 with modern avionics & guidance systems would cheer up the troops no end !
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Let Torps resign but keep the carrier-based capability.
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The FAA aren't allowed to write ROYAL NAVY on their GR9s as they're said to be RAF assets.....
The RAF aren't allowed to paint ROYAL AIR FORCE on the side of 'theirs' either.
The GR9s are pooled, often being moved between different squadrons as they come out of servicing. A few are painted up as specific squadron aircraft but many have easily removable or no sqn markings at all.
Hows the tinfoil hat though? Comfy?
Bismark
Not withstanding you have quoted another post but I thought it was CNS who "threatened" to resign if he didn't get his way. Or is he just screaming and screaming till he's (dark) blue in the face?
Not withstanding you have quoted another post but I thought it was CNS who "threatened" to resign if he didn't get his way. Or is he just screaming and screaming till he's (dark) blue in the face?
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Armed Forces "jointery"
I am long out of the air force now; my involvement was in the Falkland Islands when I must say I was very impressed by the co-operation of not just the RN and Army but also numerous civvies, merchant navy, Royal Fleet Auxilliary etc. etc.
All that mattered then was getting on with the job! All this changed when the rule books arrived and the suppliers became storemen and started to hoard their supplies and stop supplying them; low flying rules tightened up, bean counters arrived and "Admin" reverted to normal!
What needs to happen now is for the CNS, CAS and CGS (Chief of the General Staff or whoever heads the army) COLLECTIVELY to stand together on this. The country needs ALL elements of the services and that includes the FAA and RM, (and the RAF Regt) and none are "optional extras".....Divided loyalties have no part here and will lead to even fiercer in-fighting in the future and only play into the polititians hands.
After the end of the Cold War, the then necessary review "Option for Change" promised a leaner and better equipped armed forces. We are certainly much leaner now but we must not allow the equipment promises to be broken anymore than they have been already.
Stand together is the message, and to remember that attack is sometimes better than defence....we ought to expect senior military officers to know this and speak out against political decisions which they know are ill thought, and which prejudice our defence posture.....both now and in the future.
Why do we never learn from the past?
MB
All that mattered then was getting on with the job! All this changed when the rule books arrived and the suppliers became storemen and started to hoard their supplies and stop supplying them; low flying rules tightened up, bean counters arrived and "Admin" reverted to normal!
What needs to happen now is for the CNS, CAS and CGS (Chief of the General Staff or whoever heads the army) COLLECTIVELY to stand together on this. The country needs ALL elements of the services and that includes the FAA and RM, (and the RAF Regt) and none are "optional extras".....Divided loyalties have no part here and will lead to even fiercer in-fighting in the future and only play into the polititians hands.
After the end of the Cold War, the then necessary review "Option for Change" promised a leaner and better equipped armed forces. We are certainly much leaner now but we must not allow the equipment promises to be broken anymore than they have been already.
Stand together is the message, and to remember that attack is sometimes better than defence....we ought to expect senior military officers to know this and speak out against political decisions which they know are ill thought, and which prejudice our defence posture.....both now and in the future.
Why do we never learn from the past?
MB
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Right on, Madbob!
While we're at it, will someone please explain why it appears as if the CAS and the CDS (who should know more than most about individual aircraft types' capabilities) want to discard the best CAS aircraft we have? Are they mad?
While we're at it, will someone please explain why it appears as if the CAS and the CDS (who should know more than most about individual aircraft types' capabilities) want to discard the best CAS aircraft we have? Are they mad?
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Chap, real readiness is measured in hours, not weeks, I would say.
As for the GR4, it can't be that after months they claim they are not ready; heads would roll - how long have they been about? There must be other extraneous issues surrounding the situation you refer to.
As for the GR4, it can't be that after months they claim they are not ready; heads would roll - how long have they been about? There must be other extraneous issues surrounding the situation you refer to.
Readiness
Depends which way you look at it I suppose. Tornado was not told
"Get to Afg asap" it was given a set period of time, that period has not elapsed yet.
Sometimes the truth spoils what would otherwise be a good beating stick.
Can you remember how quick Tornado was ready for Bosnia or Telic once tasked?
"Get to Afg asap" it was given a set period of time, that period has not elapsed yet.
Or is the delay (3 months? 6 months? A year?) really because there isn't anywhere to park them (and all the contractors who lay the concrete have run off)?
Can you remember how quick Tornado was ready for Bosnia or Telic once tasked?
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In something like 8 years (plus or minus) there will be a load of F-35s which will need pilots (and maintenance crew) to take them to sea.
I don't care if they are RAF, FAA, or "purple" (or pink) - but the senior pilots and maintenace crew for those planes should be getting some experience under their belts the best way they can NOW.
IF we are going to have "purple" solutions then it is up to all involved parties to start behaving like serious, professional people.
.
I don't care if they are RAF, FAA, or "purple" (or pink) - but the senior pilots and maintenace crew for those planes should be getting some experience under their belts the best way they can NOW.
IF we are going to have "purple" solutions then it is up to all involved parties to start behaving like serious, professional people.
.
I agree with Madbob.
A few years ago a study was conducted amongst very senior Officers across the services as to what qualities and skills they deemed were necessary for a young Officer Cadet to possess to ensure they would 'cut it' and be of great value to the military. Time and time again, one particular quality kept being mentioned, and that was 'Moral Courage', ie backbone, spine. It is about time there was a unified stance by our guys at the top, to stand up in front of the Treasury and the MOD and say 'NO!', enough is enough. The couple of billion that the military is asked to save is nothing in comparison to the Northern Rock, LloydsTSB debarcle.
It still astonishes me that at a time of well publicized overstretch somebody in the Treasury even has the gall to ask for savings to be made. Torpy has made his full pay pension now, it is about time he stuck up for the service that has been so good to him. I see the First Sea Lord at least had the balls to put his job on the line, something I have seen many Admirals and Generals do, but have never heard of any of our chaps in the RAF do.
But nothing will change
Rant Over
A few years ago a study was conducted amongst very senior Officers across the services as to what qualities and skills they deemed were necessary for a young Officer Cadet to possess to ensure they would 'cut it' and be of great value to the military. Time and time again, one particular quality kept being mentioned, and that was 'Moral Courage', ie backbone, spine. It is about time there was a unified stance by our guys at the top, to stand up in front of the Treasury and the MOD and say 'NO!', enough is enough. The couple of billion that the military is asked to save is nothing in comparison to the Northern Rock, LloydsTSB debarcle.
It still astonishes me that at a time of well publicized overstretch somebody in the Treasury even has the gall to ask for savings to be made. Torpy has made his full pay pension now, it is about time he stuck up for the service that has been so good to him. I see the First Sea Lord at least had the balls to put his job on the line, something I have seen many Admirals and Generals do, but have never heard of any of our chaps in the RAF do.
But nothing will change
Rant Over
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I am new to pprune and was looking through the many threads and this one struck a chord with some letters I have seen in the Daily Telegraph over the past few days. What is happening with the Harrier Force and did a Chief resign? I would have thought something would be in the press by now if they had.
When Chiefs threaten to resign there is usually someone behind them stiffening their resolve (they won't do it unless they are being told "its all or nothing boss") - presumably it is their Assistant Chiefs, or is Stirrup the quiet stirrer?
When Chiefs threaten to resign there is usually someone behind them stiffening their resolve (they won't do it unless they are being told "its all or nothing boss") - presumably it is their Assistant Chiefs, or is Stirrup the quiet stirrer?
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Did I hear right? Is JFH continuing to support Herric until the New Year? Does that mean that GR4s won't be ready to take on the mantle? Looks like a good arguement for keeping the most useful fleet in the RAFs inventory for as long as possible, kinda like what the RN were saying. (Not sure NSW will be happy though as no doubt they will be getting the Xmas deployment again!).
Please feel free to correct me if the jungle drums I heard are wrong!
Please feel free to correct me if the jungle drums I heard are wrong!
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Looks like the C**bs have really c****d up now!
Torpy "ACAS, Let's get rid of the Harrier Force so we can get the Navy out of FW"
ACAS "Great idea Sir I'll get right on to it!"
2 weeks later
Torpy "I think we might have done it old bean."
ACAS "Slight problem sir, we actually need the Harriers to plug a slight gap that has emerged in our planning. What is more we need the FAA to help us."
Torpy "But you told me it would be easy, ACAS"
ACAS "Shall I get my sword now, Sir?"
Can someone assure me someone is in charge of the RAF?
Torpy "ACAS, Let's get rid of the Harrier Force so we can get the Navy out of FW"
ACAS "Great idea Sir I'll get right on to it!"
2 weeks later
Torpy "I think we might have done it old bean."
ACAS "Slight problem sir, we actually need the Harriers to plug a slight gap that has emerged in our planning. What is more we need the FAA to help us."
Torpy "But you told me it would be easy, ACAS"
ACAS "Shall I get my sword now, Sir?"
Can someone assure me someone is in charge of the RAF?
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Surely with Litening III and 4 Paveway IVs (or a mixed load of Paveway IV and laser brimstome) and the TIEC upgrade the Tornado will be a pretty capable CAS aircraft?
If they clear dual-store carriers (like days of old, carrying 1000lb GP bombs 8 at a time) you could conceivably carry even more Paveway IVs (up to 6 and a targetting pod), though there may be wiring issues for putting a GPS guided weapon on them (like the US found, having to modify VERs to carry JDAM). Possibly end up being a bit heavy for Afghanistan though...
By the time it goes to the stan I'd expect all the above weapons will have been fully cleared and at least enough airframes for Herrick will have received TIEC....
If they clear dual-store carriers (like days of old, carrying 1000lb GP bombs 8 at a time) you could conceivably carry even more Paveway IVs (up to 6 and a targetting pod), though there may be wiring issues for putting a GPS guided weapon on them (like the US found, having to modify VERs to carry JDAM). Possibly end up being a bit heavy for Afghanistan though...
By the time it goes to the stan I'd expect all the above weapons will have been fully cleared and at least enough airframes for Herrick will have received TIEC....
The FAA aren't allowed to write ROYAL NAVY on their GR9s as they're said to be RAF assets.....
The RAF aren't allowed to paint ROYAL AIR FORCE on the side of 'theirs' either.
Surely with Litening III and 4 Paveway IVs (or a mixed load of Paveway IV and laser brimstome) and the TIEC upgrade the Tornado will be a pretty capable CAS aircraft?
Not that I don't want the GR4 to succeed out here, but I just don't believe the Tornado will be able to provide the same service to the guys on the ground as the GR9 currently does. I hope to be proved wrong!
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This is getting a bit off-topic, but for MOST operations in Afghanistan surely using up old aircraft remaining airframe hours is the best policy.
Armed Patrols at medium level with precision bombs is a simple task which does NOT need the very latest generation aircraft.
Now, low down CAS and future procurement is another matter - but using up the best aircraft for something as well done by older aircraft makes no sense.
.
Armed Patrols at medium level with precision bombs is a simple task which does NOT need the very latest generation aircraft.
Now, low down CAS and future procurement is another matter - but using up the best aircraft for something as well done by older aircraft makes no sense.
.
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1SL on Andrew Marr
Having just watched the interview, it seemed like it went well for 1 SL.
Started anti-piracy ops off East Africa, moved to Herrick (30% of troops in theatre are RN), then touched on CVF before Marr dropped in the line
"I bet you love the RAF".
1SL answered well - talks of robust discussions but no threat to retire early...and if he was considering ending his career, he wouldn't talk about it in public.
As a people watcher - I would say that the robust discussions have been a bit heated.
Started anti-piracy ops off East Africa, moved to Herrick (30% of troops in theatre are RN), then touched on CVF before Marr dropped in the line
"I bet you love the RAF".
1SL answered well - talks of robust discussions but no threat to retire early...and if he was considering ending his career, he wouldn't talk about it in public.
As a people watcher - I would say that the robust discussions have been a bit heated.