Helicopters shooting down aircraft
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Worked great at Red Flag
In a former life (seems like) as a US Army Cobra driver I recall a Red Flag we attended in which this capability was found to work quite well in certain circumstances. One of the biggest things that came out of all this was the fast-movers lack of understanding of our ability to take "off-axis" shots at them with our 20mm gattling gun. On the Cobra this weapon is capable of swiveling up to 110 degrees left or right of aircraft centerline. This capability was quite devasting in certain engagements. I know the Apache has this capability as well but I am not sure of the parameters as I turned down my chance to fly this aircraft in order to become a fixed wing whore. Additionally we discovered that F-16 targeting computers automatically dropped out anything that moved at less then thirty five knots. Using this to our advantage we were able to hover slowly and stealthly over roads and countryside to ingress/egress areas that had heavy air coverage.
IWA:
In the 60's AP129 spelt it "heliopter", but that was later amended to "hicopleter"!
Does this stem from the misconception that the proper term is spelled 'helocopter'?
CirrusF,
My guess would be the FW community saying "We kill stuff" so send a fighter to do a fighters job. More likely, it's the RAF not wanting the AH64 to move onto yet more RAF turf.
From a tactics point of view, a helo is, IMHO, not the best platform to go after a light ac due to the lack of overtake if the intercept geometry isn't good. Much better would be a Tucano/PC-9 style ac, or, possibly ideal, would be an armed Agusta-Bell 609.
As Roust (sp?) proved, a light ac is a very difficult target to find and prosecute; they inherently have a low RCS and low IR signature so are ill suited to intercept by most FJ. However, if it can find it, a Typhoon-style would have no problems performing a VID / gun engagement as it is much more comfortable in the low speed regime than, say, a Tornado F3.
My guess would be the FW community saying "We kill stuff" so send a fighter to do a fighters job. More likely, it's the RAF not wanting the AH64 to move onto yet more RAF turf.
From a tactics point of view, a helo is, IMHO, not the best platform to go after a light ac due to the lack of overtake if the intercept geometry isn't good. Much better would be a Tucano/PC-9 style ac, or, possibly ideal, would be an armed Agusta-Bell 609.
As Roust (sp?) proved, a light ac is a very difficult target to find and prosecute; they inherently have a low RCS and low IR signature so are ill suited to intercept by most FJ. However, if it can find it, a Typhoon-style would have no problems performing a VID / gun engagement as it is much more comfortable in the low speed regime than, say, a Tornado F3.
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Given that Paris has only one globally significant political target for a light aircraft suicide attack (The Eiffel Tower) whereas London has several (eg Buck Pal, Houses of Parliament, MI6 HQ, London Eye), it does seem odd to me that UK has not adopted an overt, dedicated defence against such a relatively easy attack (far easier than 911) which would nevertheless still have significant political impact.
I expect there are covert defences, but they would only reveal themselves once the political statement has already been deliivered (even if the attack itself fails),
I expect there are covert defences, but they would only reveal themselves once the political statement has already been deliivered (even if the attack itself fails),
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"The Germans" - in WWII - found helo's hard targets ?
Even with Hanna Reich's efforts, I should have thought the hardest thing was rarity, and I would have thought it would only take a second, low speed attack - such 'helo's were not exactly gunships able to fire back or even dodge with agility - so the most dangerous part would presumably be the 'never do' second run with AAA prepared, the 'helo' being pretty much a decoy !
As to covert defence of the realm, hell yes; I know of a Cessna 172 armed with a 400mm lens sent up to inspect a bogey approaching Windsor about the first day we were allowed to fly after 9/11.
Unfortunately the PA28 in the sights had retractable gear, so just cruised away from the clapped out 172 despite the best efforts of the pilot, 'vectored' by ATC !
The PA28 was just lost or stupid - I expect something nasty & pointy would have appeared very shortly afterwards courtesy of a Tornado or Rapier if he hadn't turned away ( probably wouldn't have hit him until running out of rounds, but might have frightened him into a heart attack seems the best bet ).
The aircrew were all for putting an 'interceptor' zap on the 172, but the boss, an a******le at all times, salesman 1, airman 0, vetoed it.
Even with Hanna Reich's efforts, I should have thought the hardest thing was rarity, and I would have thought it would only take a second, low speed attack - such 'helo's were not exactly gunships able to fire back or even dodge with agility - so the most dangerous part would presumably be the 'never do' second run with AAA prepared, the 'helo' being pretty much a decoy !
As to covert defence of the realm, hell yes; I know of a Cessna 172 armed with a 400mm lens sent up to inspect a bogey approaching Windsor about the first day we were allowed to fly after 9/11.
Unfortunately the PA28 in the sights had retractable gear, so just cruised away from the clapped out 172 despite the best efforts of the pilot, 'vectored' by ATC !
The PA28 was just lost or stupid - I expect something nasty & pointy would have appeared very shortly afterwards courtesy of a Tornado or Rapier if he hadn't turned away ( probably wouldn't have hit him until running out of rounds, but might have frightened him into a heart attack seems the best bet ).
The aircrew were all for putting an 'interceptor' zap on the 172, but the boss, an a******le at all times, salesman 1, airman 0, vetoed it.
Last edited by Double Zero; 7th Jan 2009 at 23:23.
From a tactics point of view, a helo is, IMHO, not the best platform to go after a light ac due to the lack of overtake if the intercept geometry isn't good. Much better would be a Tucano/PC-9 style ac
XR219, Capital idea - why not have a control centre at, oh I don't know, Northolt?
Double Zero,
Google Flettner 282, Flettner 265 and Drache. The Germans had a number of operational helicopter types in WW2 and conducted trials between Flettners and Me109s/FW190s to assess vulnerability. Which they discovered was surprisingly low when the RW were well flown at low level. The operational use of the Drache over the Eastern front was also surprisingly successful.
Double Zero,
Google Flettner 282, Flettner 265 and Drache. The Germans had a number of operational helicopter types in WW2 and conducted trials between Flettners and Me109s/FW190s to assess vulnerability. Which they discovered was surprisingly low when the RW were well flown at low level. The operational use of the Drache over the Eastern front was also surprisingly successful.
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Originally Posted by LittleMo
I was just reading an article by Prof. Richard Wood called FIREFORCE and came across an account of a Rhodesian Airforce Alouette III, configured as a gunship or 'K-Car', flown by Charles Goatley, with Beaver Shaw manning the 20mm cannon, which had the distinction of shooting down a Botswana Defence Force Islander on 9 August 1979.
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Israeli choppers have brought down civvie planes 'invading' their airspace from Lebanon before. I remember reading about one a few years ago. They downed the plane over one of their own Navy bases, and I think it injured a few folks on the ground.
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chopper airto air
i was involved in the air to air contact with chas goatley flying into botswana when we were jumped by the bdf.
i am about to publish a book on the incident, which should come out later this year called choppertech
see my blog www.choppertech.*************
i am about to publish a book on the incident, which should come out later this year called choppertech
see my blog www.choppertech.*************
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A Sikorsky Hoverfly I testing a banner towing system !! by the AFEE at RAF Beaulieu had its cable hit by a Spitfire. The helicopter survived, the Spit was Cat 5 so that must count as a kill surely.
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Sure....helicopters were shooting down fixed wing baddies all the time way back in the 80's.
What was it called? 'Airwolf' or something....no...wait a sec,......'Blue Thunder'!
Yep..........that was it.....I knew it would come back to me.
What was it called? 'Airwolf' or something....no...wait a sec,......'Blue Thunder'!
Yep..........that was it.....I knew it would come back to me.
