WHy get rid of Harriers when we can drop the ADV's instead...
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WHy get rid of Harriers when we can drop the ADV's instead...
There has been much fuss about the possible removal of the Harrier fleet - the seimnal COIN/FGA aircraft we have - and how it will loose us the ability to land on and operate carriers, and remove the FAA's fixed wing capabilities, both of which are important aspects of British defense.
However, I don't see the need for continuing to operate 16 Tornado Air defense varients now the Typhoon has arrived - there is no need, especially as the damn things can't fly high enough to be true interceptors. I'm NOT saying get rid of the IDS/GR4 of course, as they are still useful, as they will shortly prove now they can operate in Afghan.
So get rid of these ineffective aricraft, and keep the harriers - we retain the most useful airframe, and the FAA's happy, and the RAF's happy cause they can point at Typhoon and show how useful it is (finally), and the MoD's happy because its saving money. All at the cost of losing 16 odd 21 year old airframes who are pretty bad at their role anyway.
*places on helmet, and jumps into foxhole to await incoming*
However, I don't see the need for continuing to operate 16 Tornado Air defense varients now the Typhoon has arrived - there is no need, especially as the damn things can't fly high enough to be true interceptors. I'm NOT saying get rid of the IDS/GR4 of course, as they are still useful, as they will shortly prove now they can operate in Afghan.
So get rid of these ineffective aricraft, and keep the harriers - we retain the most useful airframe, and the FAA's happy, and the RAF's happy cause they can point at Typhoon and show how useful it is (finally), and the MoD's happy because its saving money. All at the cost of losing 16 odd 21 year old airframes who are pretty bad at their role anyway.
*places on helmet, and jumps into foxhole to await incoming*
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The F3 will disappear partly for the reasons you mention, but not just yet!
There are not enough Typhoons and trained pilots to effectively take over the full commitments of the F3 fleet - these being the Falklands air defence flight, and northern and southern QRA alert, as minimum requirements. The Typhoon force could probably manage these just about (if you dedicated every squadron, man and aircraft to it), but would have no spare capacity to continue to train pilots or develop the aircraft multi-role capability in a timely fashion. Once the force size is built up though (with more aircraft delivered and more crews fully trained), there'll be sufficient slack for these tasks to continue alongside the 'operational' tasks such as QRA and Falklands air defence.
There are not enough Typhoons and trained pilots to effectively take over the full commitments of the F3 fleet - these being the Falklands air defence flight, and northern and southern QRA alert, as minimum requirements. The Typhoon force could probably manage these just about (if you dedicated every squadron, man and aircraft to it), but would have no spare capacity to continue to train pilots or develop the aircraft multi-role capability in a timely fashion. Once the force size is built up though (with more aircraft delivered and more crews fully trained), there'll be sufficient slack for these tasks to continue alongside the 'operational' tasks such as QRA and Falklands air defence.
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The thought occurs to me the RAF could play this a little clever, and present the impending withdrawal of the F3 fleet as a cost saving defence cut, without actually changing the dates of withdrawal anyway. Treasury think they have gotten one over on the forces, and go back their hobbit holes happy once more. After all therecent announceent of a delay to the CVF completion dates was nothing more than smoke and mirrors to keep the treasury happy in the same vein. The start dates for the ships have been delayed by at least two years prior to the order earlier this year, even though the in service dates remained static. once the ink was dry on the contracts, industry has a quiet word in the defence minister's shell like and informs him that as the start dates have been pushed back, the finish dates must logically follow. The the treasury goblins rear their ugly heads ionce more deanding tribute from the ministry, and the minister says he will make great savings by 'delaying' the in service dates of the CVFs by up to two years. Goblins go away happy once more. Carriers will still be built and delivered as early as they would have otherwise. High time the forces stopped fighting one another and recognised the true enemy... HM Government and the HM Treasury!
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I think the true picture is that the cost of keeping the F3 in service until Typhoon is ready to fully replace it is minimal and most of it is already spent. I understand that is certainly not the case with Harrier and that running it down earlier will save £1bn.
Perhaps, Yeoman_dai, you could enlighten us with your plan to fill the gap in air defence that your suggestion would result in?
Better to have a fighter struggling for altitude than not to have a fighter at all.
Perhaps, Yeoman_dai, you could enlighten us with your plan to fill the gap in air defence that your suggestion would result in?
Better to have a fighter struggling for altitude than not to have a fighter at all.
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Lets take a look at the comparitive usefulness, shall we?
Harrier - in almost constant use since we went into Afghan...
FR3 - when was the last time they contributed anything useful to British Defense beyond working up ships and ground air defense crews? Even the last interception of a Bear was by a Typhoon!
Important AD roles are down on the Falklands, and in the North to deal with Russian overflights - lest face it, anyone apart from Russia in range of the UK mainland isn't going to warrent needing air defense!
And if the upgrades ARE paid for, it was a collosal waste of money, by a service who has more money than it knows what to do with, in an effort to once again validate its existance and need for a full third of the defense budget.
Soddim, if I remember your the one going against SHAR in another thread? an RAF type who resents the fact that in the Falklands the FAA proved to be far more capable...what was it, 21 kills to SHAR, how many to the RAF? You managed to dent the edge of Stanly runway...oh, and managed one 30mmAAA gun, with a shrike.
The only useful assets were - surprise surprise, the RAF HARRIERS, who you seem to keen to get rid of? I'm in the Army, and even I can tell that with Trident we don't really need to worry about a full scale assault on the UK mainland...
No, we could stand to lose quite a bit of our air assets at the moment, and still continue to work up Typhoon - once thats up to speed we can regain our air defense squadrons, all well and good, AND save money in the process by getting rid of the FR3's
Obi Wan Russell, by the way - well said that man!!!
Harrier - in almost constant use since we went into Afghan...
FR3 - when was the last time they contributed anything useful to British Defense beyond working up ships and ground air defense crews? Even the last interception of a Bear was by a Typhoon!
Important AD roles are down on the Falklands, and in the North to deal with Russian overflights - lest face it, anyone apart from Russia in range of the UK mainland isn't going to warrent needing air defense!
And if the upgrades ARE paid for, it was a collosal waste of money, by a service who has more money than it knows what to do with, in an effort to once again validate its existance and need for a full third of the defense budget.
Soddim, if I remember your the one going against SHAR in another thread? an RAF type who resents the fact that in the Falklands the FAA proved to be far more capable...what was it, 21 kills to SHAR, how many to the RAF? You managed to dent the edge of Stanly runway...oh, and managed one 30mmAAA gun, with a shrike.
The only useful assets were - surprise surprise, the RAF HARRIERS, who you seem to keen to get rid of? I'm in the Army, and even I can tell that with Trident we don't really need to worry about a full scale assault on the UK mainland...
No, we could stand to lose quite a bit of our air assets at the moment, and still continue to work up Typhoon - once thats up to speed we can regain our air defense squadrons, all well and good, AND save money in the process by getting rid of the FR3's
Obi Wan Russell, by the way - well said that man!!!
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Dai
Soddim and wolvowill have given you the 2 answers to your question.
1. Cutting F3 early saves bugger all, cutting Harrier saves loads.
2. F3 is heavily committed on core defence commitments (yes I know it isn't a shooting war, nobody dies etc) and the Typhoon force is not large enough yet to take on those commitments as well as bring on its AG capability so that it can go and take over where it is needed more.
oh and you didn't have to mention that you are in the army - your posts make that painfully clear.
Soddim and wolvowill have given you the 2 answers to your question.
1. Cutting F3 early saves bugger all, cutting Harrier saves loads.
2. F3 is heavily committed on core defence commitments (yes I know it isn't a shooting war, nobody dies etc) and the Typhoon force is not large enough yet to take on those commitments as well as bring on its AG capability so that it can go and take over where it is needed more.
oh and you didn't have to mention that you are in the army - your posts make that painfully clear.
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Not exactly the most impartial of posts Yeoman...
The F3 is never going to wow the masses in the visual arena but beyond that you underestimate it at your peril..
It has inherent limitations (as do all ac) which the crew know, understand and work to surpass.
The GR7/9 has done a fantastic job over the last few years and the force deserves respite from its high tempo.
When it comes to cost-saving - you really have to examine the operational requirement, both now and in the future. Is the Harrier needed? Quite probably, yes. The F3? Definitely - until the Typhoon force can assume the role. Perhaps the solution then is a reduction in numbers for both forces..
Slinging mud without the background knowledge can be a dangerous game. Perhaps sticking to the argument in favour of the GR9 rather than a mis-informed snipe at the F3 would be a better angle.
The F3 is never going to wow the masses in the visual arena but beyond that you underestimate it at your peril..
It has inherent limitations (as do all ac) which the crew know, understand and work to surpass.
The GR7/9 has done a fantastic job over the last few years and the force deserves respite from its high tempo.
When it comes to cost-saving - you really have to examine the operational requirement, both now and in the future. Is the Harrier needed? Quite probably, yes. The F3? Definitely - until the Typhoon force can assume the role. Perhaps the solution then is a reduction in numbers for both forces..
Slinging mud without the background knowledge can be a dangerous game. Perhaps sticking to the argument in favour of the GR9 rather than a mis-informed snipe at the F3 would be a better angle.
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Bah i'm tired and not currently in the mood to be impartial, but i'll admit a mistake and apologise when needed - its a fair cop, guv. 
Although I do stand by my comments, the core of which is that our GR9's are needed far more than the FR3's currently, and in the foreseeable future, plus that the carriers are key to british defense interests.
And whats that Army comment supposed to mean
Although I do stand by my comments, the core of which is that our GR9's are needed far more than the FR3's currently, and in the foreseeable future, plus that the carriers are key to british defense interests.
And whats that Army comment supposed to mean
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A Slight tangent, not too long ago I heard about a plan by someone to look into the feasibility of entending the GR4 fleet by removing the nose section rear of the cockpit, and bolting it onto an F3 main fuse. Now this is not too far fetched, seeing as the aircraft were originally built in sections by different nations then assembled by MESSY BEAST into flying aircraft. The throw away line was something like "Of course it will fit, the F3s are basically built from GR1 frames anyway".
Needless to say after the issue was investigated by some real engineers it was concluded that maybe it was not that simple after all......
Needless to say after the issue was investigated by some real engineers it was concluded that maybe it was not that simple after all......
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I think that part of the problem is that you think like a sharp end guy ie "what do I need here and now" not an accountant ie "where can I save money". Just realise that there is a lot of the latter happening in the hierarchy of the MOD and especially amongst the politicians.
... or like the poor souls in The Ivory Tower, trying their hardest to swim against the stream, and balance the requirements of the "hear and now (the war)" against the demands of the future (a war).
And the calls for the F3 to be disbanded are not helped by the "just wait for the Falklands to kick off again" brigade - withdraw them now and you could send the wrong message ....
Does raise an interesting question - if you were to disband/suspend any capability not directly supporting current ops what would you lose? AWACS? Challenger? Rapier? Kings Horse Troop? Red Arrows? BBMF? All of which would probably save the square root of very little!
And the calls for the F3 to be disbanded are not helped by the "just wait for the Falklands to kick off again" brigade - withdraw them now and you could send the wrong message ....
Does raise an interesting question - if you were to disband/suspend any capability not directly supporting current ops what would you lose? AWACS? Challenger? Rapier? Kings Horse Troop? Red Arrows? BBMF? All of which would probably save the square root of very little!
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£1Bn???
The harrier is to be scrapped to save 1 Billion??!!
For such a piffling amount of money you'd have thought that cost could have been written off.
Just shows how low defence sits In HMG's priorities.
AFAIK wasn't the F3 last "operational" just before it got kicked out of PSAB for being a waste of pan space/fuel??
For such a piffling amount of money you'd have thought that cost could have been written off.
Just shows how low defence sits In HMG's priorities.
AFAIK wasn't the F3 last "operational" just before it got kicked out of PSAB for being a waste of pan space/fuel??
Farfrom
As I understand it the F3 remains operational in two theatres. There is more to current military operations than Iraq and Afg.
In the same way some people would have you believe that operations didn't start in Iraq until 2003 ....
As I understand it the F3 remains operational in two theatres. There is more to current military operations than Iraq and Afg.
In the same way some people would have you believe that operations didn't start in Iraq until 2003 ....
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Seems like the RAF can't get it right for some people! Finally, we have come to the realisation that a) we need more/better strat lift, b) we need to invest more in RW c) we've probably got too many fast jets. Sage nods all round from the other Services.
So, how do we save on fast jets? Well, the Harrier's a no-brainer. It's the smallest force, it costs the most to support, we would actually save money by cutting it (unlike the F3), we haven't signed an enormous 30-year support contract which we'd have to continue paying for (unlike the GR4), and its role CAN be covered by the GR4 force to a large extent.
But, once again, this is all apparently some devious crab plot to emasculate the fleet air arm, undermine the carriers and make sure we have as many Typhoons as possible to go to air shows in......
So, how do we save on fast jets? Well, the Harrier's a no-brainer. It's the smallest force, it costs the most to support, we would actually save money by cutting it (unlike the F3), we haven't signed an enormous 30-year support contract which we'd have to continue paying for (unlike the GR4), and its role CAN be covered by the GR4 force to a large extent.
But, once again, this is all apparently some devious crab plot to emasculate the fleet air arm, undermine the carriers and make sure we have as many Typhoons as possible to go to air shows in......
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Firstly, please elaborate on what exactly an FR3 is???If you are referring to the F3, you have already shown your ignorance!
The F3 continues to provide a 'World Class' capability in many different areas - a mature platform which continues to leave many an american with his jaw on the floor....
If my memory serves me correctly, there was an article on sky news just last monday entitled ' RAF Fighters See Off Russian Bombers' - i wonder who did that.
Harrier - great little platform, hats off to the boys, BUT i'm afraid that, in the very near future, if you don't have a radar you aint coming to the party...
The F3 continues to provide a 'World Class' capability in many different areas - a mature platform which continues to leave many an american with his jaw on the floor....
If my memory serves me correctly, there was an article on sky news just last monday entitled ' RAF Fighters See Off Russian Bombers' - i wonder who did that.
Harrier - great little platform, hats off to the boys, BUT i'm afraid that, in the very near future, if you don't have a radar you aint coming to the party...
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Indeed OA, the RN sure is one very paranoid service. Should people with such a serious persecution complex be allowed to look after nuclear weapons?
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I can't believe people on this forum are already accepting the need for a £1bn cut, and squabbling about which RAF Aircraft MUST go to balance the books.
How about saying NO. Followed by "Sod off and tackle the black hole of the British economy - social security". When they've been as rigorous and brutal with the DHSS as they have with the Armed Forces, then they can come back and be listened to.
2007/8 Govt Spending*
£million
Social security benefits 133,882
Health 89,673
Education 57,846
Local Government 22,000
Defence 32,831
Home Office 13,571
Scotland 23,510
Wales 12,481
International Development 4,637
*planned expenditure, Source: economicshelp.org.
How about saying NO. Followed by "Sod off and tackle the black hole of the British economy - social security". When they've been as rigorous and brutal with the DHSS as they have with the Armed Forces, then they can come back and be listened to.
2007/8 Govt Spending*
£million
Social security benefits 133,882
Health 89,673
Education 57,846
Local Government 22,000
Defence 32,831
Home Office 13,571
Scotland 23,510
Wales 12,481
International Development 4,637
*planned expenditure, Source: economicshelp.org.
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"The F3 continues to provide a 'World Class' capability in many different areas - a mature platform which continues to leave many an american with his jaw on the floor...."
I have never heard so much phish in my life!!!!!!
I have never heard so much phish in my life!!!!!!