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Gays in the RAF

Old 17th Nov 2008, 03:20
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Wind up surely ?

This has to be a wind-up surely ??

I would hope that anyone wanting to join the RAF as a pilot [and been selected as such according to the original poster] is so determined to do so that ANY obstacle, including a homophobic environment, will not get in their way - I know there are a number of posters here who have been in that situation in the past but got on with it.

If the bloke who started this would take the time to read pprune [both now and many times in the past], it would be clear to him that your personal job and task performance is what counts, not what gender you prefer in bed.

I'm just a civvie but still have a nagging regret that I didn't pursue at career in the RAF when the chance was there. And as a humble civilian, I think the original poster has his priorities way out of whack and honestly doesn't sound like the type of person who deserves or should receive the privilege of flying anything for his country. And no doubt when he is chopped, he will blame it all on 'homophobia' rather than admit he just wasn't good enough.
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Old 17th Nov 2008, 03:37
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GP,

One of the never-changing aspects of the military is this: If there is something about you that sets you apart from everybody else, you will have the piss taken out of you for it. This is an essential part of military life - banter between mates, and is one of the ways we bond as a military unit. Accept it for what it is, and give as good as you get, and you will earm respect. Don't take offence or see it as an insult. In fact, NOT receiving banter is a BAD sign!

Judging by the tone of your posts so far, the future does not bode well for you. Your choice of PPRuNe handle, for one, speaks volumes. Remember, you will be joining to serve the Service; the Service is not there to serve you. Being gay is (quite rightly in my opinion, despite the fact that I am mildly homophobic) no barrier to you joining - but if you present yourself as a 'gay pilot', rather than a pilot who just happens to be gay, you will encounter difficulty. If you are joining to push your personal agenda on the service, or to 'mix things up', you will not last very long. This is not about 'homophobia', it is about people putting their personal proclivities before their Service. Any percieved minority group who bleat on about their minority status would encounter difficulty in the same way.

Earn respect by giving 100% effort, and building professional competence. If you are a likeable chap, and get on with most people, you will be accepted regardless. If you take every available opportunity to remind people of your sexuality, and try to push your views on others, you will not. Your 'minority' status does not entitle you to automatic respect or opportunity. In addition, you need to be sensitive to others in the Service who may not accept you. The Service has been around a long time, you have not. If you start demanding that people accept you, you will not last very long. I would suggest that 'Introducing your life partner to the Stn Cdr at a mess function' would be seen as provocative, so don't do it. Just take it on the chin, as we all have to, and get on with it, and you will earn peoples' respect.

If you are as keen and dedicated as you claim, you will be an asset to the Service. I wish you the best of luck. Just don't mince, wear make-up, or drink shandy in the mess.....
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Old 17th Nov 2008, 03:54
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Hi all,

Im a Muslim extremist terrorist with paid up membership of the Nazi Party. Im not gay, well it depends on what you call gay, will I fit in on a squadron?

Jeez Gai, there are just some things you should keep to yourself. The reality is that some people will view you in the same light as the above while some will completely accept you. I imagine most will just try to ignore it. The less of an issue you make of it the better, ie dont try to force people to accept you as a gay, they will or they wont, just remember that its not your right to be accepted as gay on a personal level.
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Old 17th Nov 2008, 03:59
  #24 (permalink)  
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GaiPilot,

Firstly, good luck with IOT and Pilot Training. With ambitions to be a single seat pilot, it's a pity the Jag force isn't around still............. (Take that back. Cheap shot. Not cheap enough for me to delete it though...)

Don't make a deal out of it and few others will. Don't let it be your defining characteristic though. Your "sexual perversion" is little different to the conservative value members who suck on oranges with black bin bags over their heads whilst wearing high heels.

I'm sure they didn't announce that at IOT.......

Let professionalism and ability be what people know you for, as it is with hetrosexuals.

P.S Jacko, you may find the RAF more liberal than you think. Those you describe usually sit in the corner of the mess, stinking of wee waiting for 55 to come. Times are a changing.....
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Old 17th Nov 2008, 06:07
  #25 (permalink)  
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It strikes me that the original poster is throwing out a challenge and making an issue out his sexuality already. The signs are definitely there that he will continue to do that when, and if, he makes it through the system.

All it will do will bring grief on his head - either intentional or unintentional.

Keep your urgings to yourself. Eventually people will suss your situation out but by that time they will have, hopefully, reached the conclusion that you're not a bad bloke and what you do is your own affair.

However.....if you really, really want to push it into peoples faces then I sincerely hope that your IOT flt cdr will start writing up your "chop" sheet from day one after the initial interview where you declare your sexuality and challenge him/her to accept you warts and all. That's what I would have done when I was there.
 
Old 17th Nov 2008, 06:35
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Nice to see some of the forum bigots waving their own d1cks around on here. Please, including you Jacko, go and write a letter to The Daily Mail and be outraged elsewhere. You are most certainly not required.
OP - just be good at your job and you'll be accepted. Just be yourself and don't feel you 'have to make a statement' or anything - we just want professional people - who can spell professional correctly
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Old 17th Nov 2008, 06:46
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I am old enough to remember the unwritten Mess rules of tabboo subjects for discussion: Politics; Religion; The Ladies. Perhaps it is time to add "sexuality" to that list and start fining bottles of port outside dining in nights again. Once we get back to discussing just aeroplanes and the best ways of war then we perhaps may rediscover the ethos that used to be the family of the RAF.
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Old 17th Nov 2008, 07:22
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Mr Gaipilot

Congrats on being selected for what is arguably the coolest job in the world. However, pin your ears back and switch to receive (ooh err)

The fact that you have introduced yourself on a public forum just before you start IOT as the "only gay in the village" is not wise. Trust me, people in the RAF may have views either way about your persuasion BUT provided you pitch up to work are reliable, trustworthy and someone they would want to go to war with, they will not give the slightest sh!t about your sexuality.

YOU are making the issue out of it here and the differing replies are testament to the mixed feeling for this subject. I think you are displaying a worrying lack of maturity (considering your chosed profession- note 1 'f') making an issue out of your sexuality this publically before you go to IOT.

You are right to aspire to be a single seat fast jet mate, you shouldn't be here if you don't however, this is a long slog and there are many pitfalls along the way. Please don't make your sexuality some kind of issue as you go through training, people will alienate you very quickly and you will sit there thinking, "they all hate me 'cos I am gay", WRONG!! They will be thinking " we hate him 'cos he is a bell end"

IOT/EFT/BFJT/AFT/OCU all takes a long time, moral courage and resilience and the RAF is a small place these days, if you piss someone off on day 1, guess what they could end up being you QFI at Valley and you may just find SAP 4 unpassable!!!

Treat people as you would wish to be treated, respect other people's sensitivies to your chosen path, as you do with others. Bottom line be a good bloke, don't introduce yourself as "the gay one" and people will not give two hoots. If you have visions of being the first or some trailblazer then you are far too late, there are competent gay men/women in all fleets (some more than others) so stop grandstanding and get on with polishing your boots and learning how to make hospital corners on your bed......

Good luck, sadly I am not convinced we have heard the last of you
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Old 17th Nov 2008, 07:34
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Christ.... this post makes for depressing reading. Its worse than a Daily Mail editorial.
GP, I think you've probably experienced a flavour of the kind of moronic comments and attitude you can expect to find in the RAF.
It seems to me that a person's ability to do their job in the forces is what matters, not your sexuality. Yes, people will have a problem with it and when your back is turned will make comments about you and your "perversion", to quote JN. To your face they will be pleasant and poilte and feign tolerance about your partner. Strange though that they will be the ones making the big deal about it, not you. Why the hell should you hide who you are just to please the idiotic bigotry that is clearly alive and well in the RAF?
A lot of people will say "I haven't got a problem with gays, I just don't want it shoved down my throat". Yes, highly original and hilarious. But, what they really mean is "I have got a problem with gays, they scare me and I want to sound a bit more liberal than I really am". Any sentence that begins with "I haven't got a problem with....", "some of my best friends...." or "with all due respect..." usually mean precisely the opposite.
Many men have a total fear of homosexuals; they believe, as evidenced here, that you will be eyeing them up in the shower or cruising the mess accommodation by night. They also have an irrational belief that all gay men want to have sex with them. They think that it is ok for them to talk about tits and fanny and be one of the lads in the bar, but that it is not acceptable for you to do the same because you have a perversion. I would think you can probably live with all that and deal with it. But it will not be easy. The RAF is about 30 or 40 years behind the rest of society when it comes to social attitudes and in some respects it still (along with the other services, to a lesser extent in my experience) serves as a haven for the socially inadequate, where they can maintain their "old-fashioned", or as I would call it, offensive, attitudes and beliefs. The same people still refer to "WRAF's" and believe that women should do only the typing or stay at home to kick out offspring for them.
You will find some people who are genuinely unbothered, but not many. At the same time, it is no better in civvy street. The difference in the RAF is that officially, discrimination against gay people is not permitted. Whilst a flavour of homophobia prevails, it is not officially tolerated.
So its a mixed bag really and will depend entirely on who you end up working with. If you can put up with the sniggering, then you should be fine. If it really bothers you and you see yourself becoming a champion of gay rights, I'd give it a miss and preserve your sanity. You have every right to serve your country regardless of your sexuality and I wouldn't pay a single bit of attention to the cretins on here (I potentially include myself in this description...).
I think its a real shame that a young person who has asked a serious question, very politely, about what he clearly has worked very hard to achieve, is shot down in flames like this. The majority of people here should be ashamed of themselves.

Last edited by D O Guerrero; 17th Nov 2008 at 07:47.
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Old 17th Nov 2008, 08:18
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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But why should someone be forced to change their views? Whatever they are?

Now I can understand their BEHAVIOUR being forcilbly changed, as there are people who think it is alright to kill a certain ethnic group, to discriminate against a certain section of society or to steal things. Their behaviour can be reprehensible and should be prohibited at times.
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Old 17th Nov 2008, 08:26
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Behaviour is what we're talking about. People are entitled to think what they like. Translating it into actions or words is an entirely different matter...
I just thought - imagine if the poster's name was girlpilot, and she asked what it would be like in the RAF as a pilot and whether she would experience any discrimination. She would be being slathered with "looking forward to seeing you on the squadron" etc etc in the style of some 1950's Terry Thomas farce... Would people be lambasting her for a feminist rant and telling her best she keep her woman-like opinions to herself and not give any hint that she thinks like this, how dare she use the forces as a platform for making her disgusted perverted bra-burning opinions public... blah blah blah? I think not.
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Old 17th Nov 2008, 08:27
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Gays in the RAF.

In this day and age, I suppose, it's enevitable.

I've only 2 thoughts on the matter,

1, Don't ask, don't tell

2. Pray to God that it's not made compulsory!
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Old 17th Nov 2008, 08:33
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If this isn't wind-up then I can only echo what has been said by some others already. Don't ask, don't tell.

Your sexuality has no bearing on your ability to do the job unless you want to make it an issue.
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Old 17th Nov 2008, 08:43
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Pride

When/if you pass all your training and courses and finish up with the award of your wings what will you be more proud of - being a qualified pilot or being gay?

My take on this, for what it is worth, is that rather than joining the Forum as "Proud Potential Pilot" you have chosen a name related to your sexual orientation, and this might sugest that this is more important to you than your potential career as aircrew.

Last edited by A2QFI; 17th Nov 2008 at 09:22.
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Old 17th Nov 2008, 09:03
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I just hope you're not ginger as well.
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Old 17th Nov 2008, 09:09
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Wow - I've seen some subjects on Prune . . .

I joined the mob in 69 (!!), and thought myself on a continuum from rebellious (mildly) through to broad-minded.

I am well surprised to see such a topic on Prune! I mean, DOES IT MATTER?

My attitude to gays (in general) altered when I joined civvy airlines and got to know one or two as PEOPLE rather than labels. I've done all the ribald comments etc etc.

If it really isn't a wind-up (which I think it is - and a good one too), it should be.

'T'ain't nobody's business but yours' - I would keep it that way if you don't want a world of grief. However 'nice' people are, we all have self-control that is soluble in alcohol, and there's plenty of that.

Dare I say 'Keep your head down' - (oh dear, sorry . . .)
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Old 17th Nov 2008, 09:12
  #37 (permalink)  
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Gay, Straight, Politician(), Girl Guides, whatever - Terry Taliban doesn't care which side you bat for. Don't ask, don't tell, do your job, stay alive.
 
Old 17th Nov 2008, 09:19
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All I can say is thank #### I moved to Australia. Strangely enough, pretty well no one gives a rats and everyone just gets on with the job.

As some have said above- gay, straight who cares? it's whether you can do the job is what counts.

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Old 17th Nov 2008, 09:32
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Your sexuality is of little or no consequence to a career in the RAF, or the wider world, unless you yourself make it so...

My missus is an ex-teacher and she taught me the importance of the phrase 'image is reality'. By what measures do you want your friends and colleagues to form their opinion of you ? Will your sexuality come top in how you define yourself (gay, then officer, then pilot etc.) ? If so, then others will pick up the same prominent features, but from their own perspective, whether that is tolerant or not.

This does not mean hiding what you are, btw. The most heinous crime I could commit as a reservist would be to say 'I can't do that, I'm only TA' because I would be defining myself by my difference to my Regular compadres, rather than emphasising the strengths and skills that I have.

Make sense ?

FP
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Old 17th Nov 2008, 09:33
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Keep your private life private. You'll be judged on ability, merit and there'll be no problem. If you try to set yourself apart as different in any significant way from your colleagues (and I'm not just talking sexuality here), then there will be friction. The RAF aircrew community is a very cohesive, loyal, family. Become part of it - do not fight to remain visibly different from that community.

I suspect that's not what you want to hear but I think it's pretty honest advice.
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