RAF Lightning versus Mirage III DACT
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I remember that first day at Soesterberg against the F15 very well Jaysi. I remember standing outside the crewroom while waiting for permission to enter as no one was ready for us even though it was a planned exchange, and hearing someone say " what are the cousins here for?" and the reply was " they are here to see how we do it!". Then they all died.
We had planned for weeks what we were going to do ( day one of a war is always a surprise) and we knew their capabilities whereas they did nor realize we could out climb them - and we cheated a bit
My tactic was not to turn back in for the merge but to continue outbound and do a 180 knot climb and loop to way over the top then come down from the vertical as they flew through. They were very good though, in that they always came out of re-heat at 10,000 feet but I kept forgetting to look at the altimeter 
I remember the night trip into Amsterdam as well
Back to the thread: I did 7 (35 minute) DACT trips in the F6 against the F1 at Reims in August 87 and agree that the Lightning should have been able to deal with the Mirage in any situation, but like the Hawk it's small frontal area meant it could get in close before you saw it even if you got a 15 mile pick up on radar. I don't have much written in my logbook about kills, etc, but I still remember one hard fight where I just got him before I had to Joker out. We went back together and shut down at the same time. I clambered down, sweating like a pig in the heat and from the 3kw of heating from the electrics in the Lightning cockpit ( I seem to remember being in an immersion-suit but not sure why in August). The aircraft did the same - it radiated heat, it smelt, it leaked fuel all over the pan, the engines clattered, it had a heat-haze all around it and if it would have panted it could have.
Alongside me the canopy of the F1 opened and out stepped an immaculately smart, cool pilot from his air conditioned cockpit, not a hair out of place. He came over to me after I had struggled down past the re-fueling probe and shook my (sweaty) hand. Then the expression on his face changed and his jaw dropped open as his head tilted up taking in the wall of angry aircraft behind me that towered over his F1. In a hushed voice he said "C'est l'avion pour l'homme n'est pas?"
We had planned for weeks what we were going to do ( day one of a war is always a surprise) and we knew their capabilities whereas they did nor realize we could out climb them - and we cheated a bit
My tactic was not to turn back in for the merge but to continue outbound and do a 180 knot climb and loop to way over the top then come down from the vertical as they flew through. They were very good though, in that they always came out of re-heat at 10,000 feet but I kept forgetting to look at the altimeter I remember the night trip into Amsterdam as well Back to the thread: I did 7 (35 minute) DACT trips in the F6 against the F1 at Reims in August 87 and agree that the Lightning should have been able to deal with the Mirage in any situation, but like the Hawk it's small frontal area meant it could get in close before you saw it even if you got a 15 mile pick up on radar. I don't have much written in my logbook about kills, etc, but I still remember one hard fight where I just got him before I had to Joker out. We went back together and shut down at the same time. I clambered down, sweating like a pig in the heat and from the 3kw of heating from the electrics in the Lightning cockpit ( I seem to remember being in an immersion-suit but not sure why in August). The aircraft did the same - it radiated heat, it smelt, it leaked fuel all over the pan, the engines clattered, it had a heat-haze all around it and if it would have panted it could have.
Alongside me the canopy of the F1 opened and out stepped an immaculately smart, cool pilot from his air conditioned cockpit, not a hair out of place. He came over to me after I had struggled down past the re-fueling probe and shook my (sweaty) hand. Then the expression on his face changed and his jaw dropped open as his head tilted up taking in the wall of angry aircraft behind me that towered over his F1. In a hushed voice he said "C'est l'avion pour l'homme n'est pas?"
Last edited by Petrolhead; 22nd Aug 2019 at 13:41. Reason: spelling
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D Thunder
With just one post under your belt - you will learn!!
Aah, but I've just seen your 'bio' - a winder-upper!
Your father probably knows newt well, and quite possibly myself and Bomber - and no doubt will have a serious discussion with you.
With just one post under your belt - you will learn!!
Aah, but I've just seen your 'bio' - a winder-upper!
Your father probably knows newt well, and quite possibly myself and Bomber - and no doubt will have a serious discussion with you.
Last edited by jindabyne; 22nd Aug 2019 at 10:50.
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Yes Jindabyne he knew Newt well! Not sure about you two but he flew single seaters all his career! Now can we get back to the thread? Oh and my Dad will be speaking to Newt today!
Thanks for your support Dark Thunder! It should not be forgotten that the F2 and F2a retained two Aden cannons so was very capable of close dog fighting especially at low level. The F6 was retro fitted with canon but I did not operate it in that fit but understand it too had improved capability!
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It is a bit hard to get one's facts straight from freely available internet sources but from what I could figure out the Mirage could not possibly have a higher T/W ratio than 0.78 and that's with a 5.3tons empty weight. I think that weight is wrong though and the Mirage IIIE weight of 7tons+2.35t for fuel+weapons=9.5tons at least which gives the most numerous Mirage 3 version a T/W ratio of 0.65 compared to the absolute minimum 0.78 for an F6 Lightning at its max take off weight. I think that the F6 had nearer 0.82 t/w on take off with the F3 having approximately 0.88 (not bad considering the Mirage 2000 - two (or 1.5 rather) generations down from the Mirage 3 has a T/W of 0.88!). So the Lightning had a hands down energy advantage. But as the Lightning pilots have stated already it came down to tactics and individual skill as well as playing to one's advantages.
In terms of missiles the Mirage may have had an advantage after the end of the '70's with the introduction of the R550 Magic I...
OMG Mr Edmund Spencer is here! The one of "La muerta negra" fame?
You, sir, might appreciate the above comment on the Magic. It was Lt Martin Hale from 800 during the Falklands that got locked up by a Dagger head-on and had to break downwards in a deep dive to get away from it IIRC. Always found it a bit ironic that the people talked about the AIM-9L during the Falklands and lamented its all aspect capability when to my knowledge no Argie fighter got locked up head on (even though Steve Thomas tried on 1 May) with the only front aspect lockup and valid shot having come from the Argentinian side with the above mentioned shot!
Jaysi - 4v4 against F15s and shooting em all up? That's unheard of! Well done! Not even the SHAR boys would claim something like that (well I guess they may have). Btw you wouldn't have been a Fg Off towards the end of the Lightning era photographed by Ian Black in a blue greyish Lightning with your name on it would you? I think I have you on VHS on some Binbrook Lightning tape, going on record that you are delighted not to be going to the Tornado but rather to the Hawk at the TWU!
In terms of missiles the Mirage may have had an advantage after the end of the '70's with the introduction of the R550 Magic I...
OMG Mr Edmund Spencer is here! The one of "La muerta negra" fame?
You, sir, might appreciate the above comment on the Magic. It was Lt Martin Hale from 800 during the Falklands that got locked up by a Dagger head-on and had to break downwards in a deep dive to get away from it IIRC. Always found it a bit ironic that the people talked about the AIM-9L during the Falklands and lamented its all aspect capability when to my knowledge no Argie fighter got locked up head on (even though Steve Thomas tried on 1 May) with the only front aspect lockup and valid shot having come from the Argentinian side with the above mentioned shot!
Jaysi - 4v4 against F15s and shooting em all up? That's unheard of! Well done!
Not even the SHAR boys would claim something like that (well I guess they may have). Btw you wouldn't have been a Fg Off towards the end of the Lightning era photographed by Ian Black in a blue greyish Lightning with your name on it would you? I think I have you on VHS on some Binbrook Lightning tape, going on record that you are delighted not to be going to the Tornado but rather to the Hawk at the TWU!Join Date: Jul 2008
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Hmm...so many questions from the deep and distant past. I don't recall what load the Mirages were carrying just that their missiles were shinier and undoubtedly more reliable in practice than ours. Both my live-fire Redtops performed some sort of exotic air display off the rail then unceremoniously plummeted into Cardigan Bay. As for the Redtop's head on capability, when you mention a 13-mile "acquisition" by the seeker head I very much doubt it but I'll wait to be reprimanded by an IWI. As I recall our head on Redtop attack profiles were about us going very supersonic against a high-flying target which was also going very fast and creating enough heat to enable the Redtop to fuse and detonate in time as it inevitably passed by whistling a tune. Whilst the uncomplicated Firestreak was more straighforward...see target heat source (at its rear), go to heat source, go bang! Never in all my DACT sorties was any kind of head-on engagement planned...always sneak up behind them...almost everyone else had a legitimate head-on capability whilst we didn't. It's why in the final years the two Lightning Squadrons became a glorified close-in dog fight training resource, no more.
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Yes it was "dial a mig" in the last few years, anything passing Binbrook wanted to be bounced and we felt we had to oblige :-)
I remember getting a visual on a Buccaneer coming down the North Sea at 600+ at 15 miles because he was making a wake. Gunning him with the guns pointing slightly up was fun!
I remember getting a visual on a Buccaneer coming down the North Sea at 600+ at 15 miles because he was making a wake. Gunning him with the guns pointing slightly up was fun!
