France accuses UK military of war crimes.
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The parallels between Agincourt and Towton are interesting - however do not hold much water. Agincourt was essentially an archer's battle. If you place archers to fire in enfilade at an approaching enemy (as happened at Agincourt - each archer advancing then planting his stake) then it is natural for the attacking force to bunch together away from the arrow storm. This caused a press in the middle of the group, and the men at arms in the middle of the press died of suffocation (similar to Hillsborough football match). This led to heaps of bodies in channels along the axis of the battlefield - these could be up to the height of a man as victims struggled to escape the arrows. The English followed up by killing all in the press following the archers' initial volleys - the long thin "debollocker" dagger being a suitable method of dispatch. as the English infantry ran in barefoot to avoid slipping on the wet ground.
At Towton, both sides possessed archers who closed to start the battle. The Yorkist archers under Warwick's half borother, Lord Faulkenberg, had the advantage of the wind behind and sleet blowing into the Lancastrians' faces. This enabled them to use heavier close quarter arrows. The Lancastrians, blinded by the sleet misjudged the range and shot short. The Yorkists then advanced and returned the Lancastrians arrows for them.
This phase battle was unusual - mostly both sides appreciated the devastating effects of archers and closed rapidly to nullify the effect. Thereafter Towton was characterised by a slugging match that lasted for many hours following the initial short arrow exchange. This ended when the Duke of Norfolk reinforced the Yorkist right and the Lancastrian battle collapsed leading to panic and a mass route where many thousands were killed.
The excavation of the burial pits at Towton Hall reveal death caused by injuries most probably caused during this route. It is interesting that some victims show the possible signs of mutilation before death (ears cut off).
(PS. My Father still lives in the area local to Towton - I used to be in the same class at school with the son of the Landlord of the Pub in Towton so I have come to know the battle quite well). It is a shame that Sheakspeare was wriyting for the Granddaughter of a Lancastrian usurper to the throne (Henry VII) and that the superb generalship of Edward Earl of March (later Edward IV) has been underestimated by future generations. His military prowess was certainly eaqual to - if not better than - Henry V and Edward III.
Sorry - off thread!
At Towton, both sides possessed archers who closed to start the battle. The Yorkist archers under Warwick's half borother, Lord Faulkenberg, had the advantage of the wind behind and sleet blowing into the Lancastrians' faces. This enabled them to use heavier close quarter arrows. The Lancastrians, blinded by the sleet misjudged the range and shot short. The Yorkists then advanced and returned the Lancastrians arrows for them.
This phase battle was unusual - mostly both sides appreciated the devastating effects of archers and closed rapidly to nullify the effect. Thereafter Towton was characterised by a slugging match that lasted for many hours following the initial short arrow exchange. This ended when the Duke of Norfolk reinforced the Yorkist right and the Lancastrian battle collapsed leading to panic and a mass route where many thousands were killed.
The excavation of the burial pits at Towton Hall reveal death caused by injuries most probably caused during this route. It is interesting that some victims show the possible signs of mutilation before death (ears cut off).
(PS. My Father still lives in the area local to Towton - I used to be in the same class at school with the son of the Landlord of the Pub in Towton so I have come to know the battle quite well). It is a shame that Sheakspeare was wriyting for the Granddaughter of a Lancastrian usurper to the throne (Henry VII) and that the superb generalship of Edward Earl of March (later Edward IV) has been underestimated by future generations. His military prowess was certainly eaqual to - if not better than - Henry V and Edward III.
Sorry - off thread!
All of the above serves to emphasise one of the benefits of EU membership.. Namely, that present and future generations will no longer have to endure European warfare. Indeed, it could be argued that this is the main benefit.
To me this particular aspect makes the price we all pay to be part of the EU well worth the paying. <awaits incoming>
We can comb history from now until the beginning of time to find gory examples of man's inhumanity to man that either prove or disprove that nation x is more gallant than nation y - but to what end?
Personally, I like France and the French. It remains a civilised society whereas in England - well, you can fill in the rest for yourselves.
Back to the thread..
To me this particular aspect makes the price we all pay to be part of the EU well worth the paying. <awaits incoming>
We can comb history from now until the beginning of time to find gory examples of man's inhumanity to man that either prove or disprove that nation x is more gallant than nation y - but to what end?
Personally, I like France and the French. It remains a civilised society whereas in England - well, you can fill in the rest for yourselves.
Back to the thread..
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I hope you are right sidevalve. It seems logical, but i remember reading a very interesting analysis in the Times about how such confederations have previously led to acrimony, break-up and conflict and postulated a quite reasonable set of circumstances under which this could happen with EU.
I cannot possibly do justice to his argument but it has been at the back of my mind ever since.
I too like France btw
I cannot possibly do justice to his argument but it has been at the back of my mind ever since.
I too like France btw
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I suppose that the European Union (of States) is akin to all the States in the Americas joining together in 1776 and declaring themselves the "United States of America" (or whenever it was). This obviously led to peace and harmony amongst themselves as demonstrated in 1861-1865.
Perhaps a good illustration was the song written in the 1960s about the "Multilateral Force". The Multilateral Force (MLF) was a plan to pool resources within NATO, so that the Good Guys (ourselves and USA) would have a joint nuclear deterent with our traditional friends France and Germany. The song was called "MLF Lullaby" and started along the lines...
"Sleep baby sleep, in peace you may slumber.
No danger lurks your dreams to encumber.
We've got the missiles, peace to determine.
And one of the fingers on the button will be German.
Once all the Germans were warlike and mean
But that couldn't happen again
We taught them a lesson in 1918
And they've hardly bothered us since then".
The song ended.....
Sleep baby sleep, in peace you may linger
Just hope our buddies don't give us the finger.
MLF will scare Bresniev
I only hope he's half as scared as I.
Nuff Said.
Defence policy should encounter capabilities and not intentions. Intentions can change overnight.
Perhaps a good illustration was the song written in the 1960s about the "Multilateral Force". The Multilateral Force (MLF) was a plan to pool resources within NATO, so that the Good Guys (ourselves and USA) would have a joint nuclear deterent with our traditional friends France and Germany. The song was called "MLF Lullaby" and started along the lines...
"Sleep baby sleep, in peace you may slumber.
No danger lurks your dreams to encumber.
We've got the missiles, peace to determine.
And one of the fingers on the button will be German.
Once all the Germans were warlike and mean
But that couldn't happen again
We taught them a lesson in 1918
And they've hardly bothered us since then".
The song ended.....
Sleep baby sleep, in peace you may linger
Just hope our buddies don't give us the finger.
MLF will scare Bresniev
I only hope he's half as scared as I.
Nuff Said.
Defence policy should encounter capabilities and not intentions. Intentions can change overnight.
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In fact I'd say they do okay for themselves and perhaps we shouldn't be smirking so much
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Well, the US hardly jelled instantly. The first attempt at a national government was the "Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union", first circulated in 1777, and ratified in 1781.
They didn't work very well, and a whole new Constitution was written starting in 1786, and ratified by enough states to put into effect in 1788.
MLF Lullaby was written & recorded by Tom Lehrer, btb... just to give credit to the author.
They didn't work very well, and a whole new Constitution was written starting in 1786, and ratified by enough states to put into effect in 1788.
MLF Lullaby was written & recorded by Tom Lehrer, btb... just to give credit to the author.
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Also, the United States , although joined by a common language, did not really become "United" as such until some years after a particularly brutal and bloody civil war, where more Americans died than in any other conflict.
The artificial EU(SSR) is more likely to break apart than gel together. (opinion)
The artificial EU(SSR) is more likely to break apart than gel together. (opinion)
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Green Knight,
Thanks for Tom Lehrer. I am of the age where I can remember the lyrics from 30 years ago and that the composer was on the US version of TW3, but could I remember his name........
I can also recall his song in tribute to "those good old Americans who spent billions of dollars to put some clown on the Moon" (his words). It is his ballad to Werner Von Braun
"Gather round while I sing you of Werner Von Braun
A man whose allegience is ruled by expedience.
I just put rockets up
I don't care where they come down;
That's not my department
Says Werner Von Braun.
You too can be a great hero
All you do is count backwards to zero.
In German and English
I know how to count down
Und I'm learning Chinese
Says Verner Von Braun".
What a strange thread....
From Medieval European History to American satyrical song writers within a couple of posts. Sorry.
Thanks for Tom Lehrer. I am of the age where I can remember the lyrics from 30 years ago and that the composer was on the US version of TW3, but could I remember his name........
I can also recall his song in tribute to "those good old Americans who spent billions of dollars to put some clown on the Moon" (his words). It is his ballad to Werner Von Braun
"Gather round while I sing you of Werner Von Braun
A man whose allegience is ruled by expedience.
I just put rockets up
I don't care where they come down;
That's not my department
Says Werner Von Braun.
You too can be a great hero
All you do is count backwards to zero.
In German and English
I know how to count down
Und I'm learning Chinese
Says Verner Von Braun".
What a strange thread....
From Medieval European History to American satyrical song writers within a couple of posts. Sorry.
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Wensleydale
Don't be sorry - remember that in Medieval times it was the Minstrels whose songs related events to the populace who had no other means of learning about such things.
Baron rouge
It was here in this tiny hamlet (from which I take my user name) that the English Army had its foremost outpost in SW France in the 13th Century, during the Hundred Years War . That information comes from the Gentleman, a retired Presidential Chief of Staff, who owns the large fortified house on the entrance to the Hamlet. Were it not for the English this hamlet would be dead and derelict - the hamlet has been protected from further development.
It is not the French who have bought and renovated property in this area and kept alive many communes.
Don't be sorry - remember that in Medieval times it was the Minstrels whose songs related events to the populace who had no other means of learning about such things.
Baron rouge
It was here in this tiny hamlet (from which I take my user name) that the English Army had its foremost outpost in SW France in the 13th Century, during the Hundred Years War . That information comes from the Gentleman, a retired Presidential Chief of Staff, who owns the large fortified house on the entrance to the Hamlet. Were it not for the English this hamlet would be dead and derelict - the hamlet has been protected from further development.
It is not the French who have bought and renovated property in this area and kept alive many communes.
