Mess Cannon
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100 Sqn have got one made from the centre spreader tube / bar from a towed air to air gunnery target, its a little temperamental to get a good shot out of it but when you do
.. I swear we managed to get a shot off camp from G dispersal at Akrotiri.
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Seymour Belvoir
Big hand of respect to the name, by the way.
Any chance of an update on progress? I do not wish upon you the hassle Frank Whittle had back in the '30s.
I really think we could be on the cusp of a biggy here.
The assorted skills of milpprune await with baited breath. Possibly.
Maybe......
Righty ho, business as usual...
Big hand of respect to the name, by the way.
Any chance of an update on progress? I do not wish upon you the hassle Frank Whittle had back in the '30s.
I really think we could be on the cusp of a biggy here.
The assorted skills of milpprune await with baited breath. Possibly.
Maybe......
Righty ho, business as usual...
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Build up of Gas?
The secret of a good mess cannon is the incorporation of baffles at the base allowing a good build of gas.
Charlie Brown was and I would guess still is the best baffler of hot gasses known to a good Dining In night.
3P
Charlie Brown was and I would guess still is the best baffler of hot gasses known to a good Dining In night.
3P
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Question from a mate of a friend.....
Perhaps some Baby EngOs would like to comment on the appropriate fuel mix when using Lighter Fluid and um, LOX.....
Effort boys!
Pity it only worked once......
Allegedly......
S41
Perhaps some Baby EngOs would like to comment on the appropriate fuel mix when using Lighter Fluid and um, LOX.....
Effort boys!
Pity it only worked once......
Allegedly......
S41
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Try these from the AAC.
A new mess canon, and some hockey kit.
YouTube - AAC Mess Cannon 1
YouTube - AAC Mess Cannon 2
A new mess canon, and some hockey kit.
YouTube - AAC Mess Cannon 1
YouTube - AAC Mess Cannon 2
The technical problems of cannon construction have been exercising aircrew brains ever since Blackadder and Baldrick joined the '20 minuters'. Here's the benefit of my 'ahem' fairly extensive cannon building experience - gained mostly on long stints on QRA at MPA!
Combustion chamber size is critical and is usually larger than initially anticipated. For small calibre weapons, it needs to be at least half the length of the weapon. 'Baffling' with half opened tins is usually successful with the baffles at 90 degrees to each other seeming to work best. The fuel needs to evaporate to burn, so increasing the evaporation surface is a good idea. Something metallic such as a ball of scrunched up locking wire is good, but don't use steel wool as it can ingnite with disasterous consequences!
As previously metioned, the fuel air mix is critical. To weak and you get a 'phut', too strong and it won't ignite. As the evaporation rate of the fuel is critical. combustion chamber warms up, the fuel evaporates faster and the mixture required changes. We found the best solution for a liquid propellant is to use a syringe to carefully measure the required charge. Trial and error testing outside the dining in night environment will determine the correct mixture for the temperature. Also, the syringe encourages vaporization if the mixture is applied under pressure.
Ignition is easy if the mix is correct. But the standard lighter over the hole technique has it's drawbacks. The size of the hole isn't that critical, but too small a hole won't allow enough fuel outside the chamber for instant ignition and too big a hole will reduce the chamber pressure and give quite a lot of 'blowback' - which can be painful! You can 'prime' the orifice with a bit of fuel, but this is an advanced technique. An electric ignition system using a big capacitor and a spark plug works well. But if the person who your cannon is being aimed at decides he doesn't want a 300mph tennis ball hitting his solar plexus and throws his beer at the firer, the system can short giving a near lethal shock to the neck. This will result in the end of the evening for the firer as he's taken to the medical centre! And if using the spark plug method, get a correct size bolt brazed onto the chamber by station workshops in which to screw the plug. If the plug comes out during firing, the collateral damage is spectacular and expensive!
The barrel. Tins of various calibres are readily available. But choice depends on the ammunition availability. Very large calibres (catering vegtable tins/OM15 cans) look impressive and strike fear into the enemy, but ammo choice is a bit limited and muzzle velocity on large weapons is low, so range is limited. Don't use a calibre which relies on a specially made projectile as you probably won't get it back! Join the tins with speed tape, gaffer tape will melt when hot. The end tin of the combustion chamber needs extra securing. Also, for big calibres or advanced fuels consider re-inforcing the combustion chamber with a winding of locking wire and a layer of speed tape.
Ammo: For standard bean tins, tennis balls work well. Fruit and vegtables are good on impact, but the calibres are varible leading to the risk of getting them stuck. having said that, the most effective ammo I have used is partially mouldy oranges! Small plastic footballs are good in large calibre weapons, but can melt if the barrel is hot from repeated use.
Fuel: Lighter petrol is the easiest in my experience. Pressurized butane works well too, but it is a bit tricky to apply. Pyrotechnics are good for closed weapons, but the temptation to set them off outside the weapon is too great. The best fuel I have ever tried is a 75/25 mix of Methyl Ethyl Ketone and Trichlorofluroethane. But be warned - this fuel is only suitable for the very advanced cannoneer!
Aiming system: Laser pointer! it's quick and accurate and also very intimidating. You should see how quick a Blunty can move when he realsies he has a little red dot on his chest!
PS. I take no responsibility for anything tried that I've metioned here. Anything attempted is at your own risk!!!!!!!!
Combustion chamber size is critical and is usually larger than initially anticipated. For small calibre weapons, it needs to be at least half the length of the weapon. 'Baffling' with half opened tins is usually successful with the baffles at 90 degrees to each other seeming to work best. The fuel needs to evaporate to burn, so increasing the evaporation surface is a good idea. Something metallic such as a ball of scrunched up locking wire is good, but don't use steel wool as it can ingnite with disasterous consequences!
As previously metioned, the fuel air mix is critical. To weak and you get a 'phut', too strong and it won't ignite. As the evaporation rate of the fuel is critical. combustion chamber warms up, the fuel evaporates faster and the mixture required changes. We found the best solution for a liquid propellant is to use a syringe to carefully measure the required charge. Trial and error testing outside the dining in night environment will determine the correct mixture for the temperature. Also, the syringe encourages vaporization if the mixture is applied under pressure.
Ignition is easy if the mix is correct. But the standard lighter over the hole technique has it's drawbacks. The size of the hole isn't that critical, but too small a hole won't allow enough fuel outside the chamber for instant ignition and too big a hole will reduce the chamber pressure and give quite a lot of 'blowback' - which can be painful! You can 'prime' the orifice with a bit of fuel, but this is an advanced technique. An electric ignition system using a big capacitor and a spark plug works well. But if the person who your cannon is being aimed at decides he doesn't want a 300mph tennis ball hitting his solar plexus and throws his beer at the firer, the system can short giving a near lethal shock to the neck. This will result in the end of the evening for the firer as he's taken to the medical centre! And if using the spark plug method, get a correct size bolt brazed onto the chamber by station workshops in which to screw the plug. If the plug comes out during firing, the collateral damage is spectacular and expensive!
The barrel. Tins of various calibres are readily available. But choice depends on the ammunition availability. Very large calibres (catering vegtable tins/OM15 cans) look impressive and strike fear into the enemy, but ammo choice is a bit limited and muzzle velocity on large weapons is low, so range is limited. Don't use a calibre which relies on a specially made projectile as you probably won't get it back! Join the tins with speed tape, gaffer tape will melt when hot. The end tin of the combustion chamber needs extra securing. Also, for big calibres or advanced fuels consider re-inforcing the combustion chamber with a winding of locking wire and a layer of speed tape.
Ammo: For standard bean tins, tennis balls work well. Fruit and vegtables are good on impact, but the calibres are varible leading to the risk of getting them stuck. having said that, the most effective ammo I have used is partially mouldy oranges! Small plastic footballs are good in large calibre weapons, but can melt if the barrel is hot from repeated use.
Fuel: Lighter petrol is the easiest in my experience. Pressurized butane works well too, but it is a bit tricky to apply. Pyrotechnics are good for closed weapons, but the temptation to set them off outside the weapon is too great. The best fuel I have ever tried is a 75/25 mix of Methyl Ethyl Ketone and Trichlorofluroethane. But be warned - this fuel is only suitable for the very advanced cannoneer!
Aiming system: Laser pointer! it's quick and accurate and also very intimidating. You should see how quick a Blunty can move when he realsies he has a little red dot on his chest!
PS. I take no responsibility for anything tried that I've metioned here. Anything attempted is at your own risk!!!!!!!!
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Monty 77
You should learn your history old chap. Big Bertha was a Fighter Control WRAF Flt Lt at West Drayton back in the early 1980's. Not sure if she could shell Blighty from France, but she could do lots of other things that were spectacular to see in a lady of such large girth
Quite appropriate on "Big Bang " day
pip-pip old boy.
You should learn your history old chap. Big Bertha was a Fighter Control WRAF Flt Lt at West Drayton back in the early 1980's. Not sure if she could shell Blighty from France, but she could do lots of other things that were spectacular to see in a lady of such large girth
Quite appropriate on "Big Bang " day
pip-pip old boy.
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Advanced Canoneering
I've used MEK in the Falklands (highly recommended when applied with a syringe), so consider myself fairly advanced in the art of cannoneering.
What's not been discussed yet, is the teamwork required for a successful launch. I've found that, as with most things, co-ordination and co-operation are key. It is paramount that co-ordination is achieved through the use of 'key words'.
'Canon armed' - propellant and missile loaded into tube - announced by the canon preparer.
'Canon ready' - Canon mounted on the shoulder of the canon aimer and ears protected. - announced by the canon aimer.
'Firing!' - Declared by the Firer as the lighter flame is applied to the ignition hole.
Then there is, what seems to be a lifetime, for the canon aimer as ignition either occurs or does not.
The next call is either, 'F*ck me!!' from general bystanders/intended victim, OR, 'For Christ's sake stop firing!!' issued by the canon aimer as he loses his nerve after a considerable amount of time in the aiming position as the rest of the room takes cover and tension mounts.
These things, I find, are key to a successful firing.
Trash
What's not been discussed yet, is the teamwork required for a successful launch. I've found that, as with most things, co-ordination and co-operation are key. It is paramount that co-ordination is achieved through the use of 'key words'.
'Canon armed' - propellant and missile loaded into tube - announced by the canon preparer.
'Canon ready' - Canon mounted on the shoulder of the canon aimer and ears protected. - announced by the canon aimer.
'Firing!' - Declared by the Firer as the lighter flame is applied to the ignition hole.
Then there is, what seems to be a lifetime, for the canon aimer as ignition either occurs or does not.
The next call is either, 'F*ck me!!' from general bystanders/intended victim, OR, 'For Christ's sake stop firing!!' issued by the canon aimer as he loses his nerve after a considerable amount of time in the aiming position as the rest of the room takes cover and tension mounts.
These things, I find, are key to a successful firing.
Trash
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Message from the front
Thanks for all the info. I think we are going to plump for the traditional bean tin, lighter fluid and tennis ball variety.
I can't give you an update, cos in true aircrew style, we haven't started building it yet. Well, I did say we've got til Friday evening!
Thanks again.
SB
I can't give you an update, cos in true aircrew style, we haven't started building it yet. Well, I did say we've got til Friday evening!
Thanks again.
SB
Last edited by Seymour Belvoir; 10th Sep 2008 at 16:01. Reason: spulling
Apologies for the late interjection.
Mrs W had a quick look at this thread and reminded me of a device she once saw me applying a match to. It was constructed in the mid 80s at Finningley with the specific target of student navigators. It was the 'tapering' design where the combustion chamber was of a greater diameter than the barrel. This has the obvious advantage of reducing the length of the weapon, but also seems to increase the muzzle velocity due to the venturi effect. It was particularly effective as I remember, with some fairly major damage done to the Mess. It does however require copious re-enforcement at the taper.
Good luck Seymour.
Mrs W had a quick look at this thread and reminded me of a device she once saw me applying a match to. It was constructed in the mid 80s at Finningley with the specific target of student navigators. It was the 'tapering' design where the combustion chamber was of a greater diameter than the barrel. This has the obvious advantage of reducing the length of the weapon, but also seems to increase the muzzle velocity due to the venturi effect. It was particularly effective as I remember, with some fairly major damage done to the Mess. It does however require copious re-enforcement at the taper.
Good luck Seymour.
Ahh MPA! Wasn't it there that one VC10 pilot made a mess cannon out of some sort of anti-tank missile tube (66mm?). IIRC the tennis ball managed to make it half way through one of those glass and wire mesh bits of a fire door! The catchers stepped aside at the last second, which was probably just as well!!
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Won't make a bag, but if you get your hands on one of those co2 extinguishers, the ones with the cone shape where the gas comes out, and ram a tennis ball down it, shure goes 200 yards plus when you squeeze the lever.
Daz
Daz
Ah yes, the 1312flt 66mm rocket launcher. IIRC, it went under several improvement programs to become a very effective tennis ball launcher. Despite it's itended original use, it proved difficult to adapt it into an effective mess cannon. It was for this weapon the MEK/Trike fuel mix was developed.
But it did have a demoralising effect on the enemy. You should have seen 78Sqns faces when we turned up with a rocket launcher - obviously designed with the purpose of doing real damage!
But it did have a demoralising effect on the enemy. You should have seen 78Sqns faces when we turned up with a rocket launcher - obviously designed with the purpose of doing real damage!
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I am shocked at serving and ex serving members of the armed forces posting in a public forum the secrets of Mess Cannoneering.
Just think for a moment what could happen if Al Qaeda or a local scout troop were to pick up on this advanced ballistic information!
I am sure none of us would like to see Gordon Brown or even Des receiving a Tennis ball at over 300 mph in the Solar plexus or any other part of their anatomy!
I myself may be a target and am now forced to head to a local sports outlet to buy some sort of racket!
Think on!
Just think for a moment what could happen if Al Qaeda or a local scout troop were to pick up on this advanced ballistic information!
I am sure none of us would like to see Gordon Brown or even Des receiving a Tennis ball at over 300 mph in the Solar plexus or any other part of their anatomy!
I myself may be a target and am now forced to head to a local sports outlet to buy some sort of racket!
Think on!
