Military life - motivation?
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Farnham, Surrey
Posts: 326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Let's try and add a bit of realism here. My father flew Spitfires in WWII, became an ace, was shot down and carried on with his previous peace-time career after the war.
My brother went to Cranwell straight from school, flew Hunters and F-4s, left as a 3*.
I joined the RAF as a Nav flew F-4s, but wasn't quite good enough to sustain a career.
A few years ago, my then 17 year-old son, who had been mad keen on the RAF, suddenly said, "Dad, would you mind if I didn't join the Air Force?" I said, "No, of course not, you must do want think best, but at least tell me why"
"Well, if I join the RAF and I fly fast jets, it seems likely that I'll have to kill somebody someday, and I'm not sure I could handle that". His reply was heartfelt and sincere and I only thank God that he realised it before embarking on an utlimately doomed career.
Face facts, Sparks, life is not swanning around in a swanky mean-machine, armed to the teeth and posing at air shows, Red Flag and any bar big enough for your ego. It is a matter of life and death and with your attitude, as other posters have put more succinctly, I doubt the RAF would want you, no matter how determined you might be. The people at Cranwell have seen it all before.
Go find an alternative.
Best of luck
jf
My brother went to Cranwell straight from school, flew Hunters and F-4s, left as a 3*.
I joined the RAF as a Nav flew F-4s, but wasn't quite good enough to sustain a career.
A few years ago, my then 17 year-old son, who had been mad keen on the RAF, suddenly said, "Dad, would you mind if I didn't join the Air Force?" I said, "No, of course not, you must do want think best, but at least tell me why"
"Well, if I join the RAF and I fly fast jets, it seems likely that I'll have to kill somebody someday, and I'm not sure I could handle that". His reply was heartfelt and sincere and I only thank God that he realised it before embarking on an utlimately doomed career.
Face facts, Sparks, life is not swanning around in a swanky mean-machine, armed to the teeth and posing at air shows, Red Flag and any bar big enough for your ego. It is a matter of life and death and with your attitude, as other posters have put more succinctly, I doubt the RAF would want you, no matter how determined you might be. The people at Cranwell have seen it all before.
Go find an alternative.
Best of luck
jf
Last edited by johnfairr; 8th Sep 2008 at 16:00.
Additional:
You need to
1) Grow up.
2) Develop some tolerance of others.
3) Lighten up and take that stick out of your @rse.
4) Show your betters some respect. Many of those on Military Aircrew are exactly what it says on the tin. They have been and done it, and deserve your respectm and it's a shame that this needs pointing out to you. You are not their equal, nor anything close, you cheeky young whipper snapper.
And you would not stand an earthly of being selected, anyway. You lack maturity, commitment, dedication and knowledge, and you lack the humility and people skills to be of any interest to the RAF. And unless you buy your way into a cockpit, then I'd predict that you're f*cked when it comes to the airlines too.
You need to
1) Grow up.
2) Develop some tolerance of others.
3) Lighten up and take that stick out of your @rse.
4) Show your betters some respect. Many of those on Military Aircrew are exactly what it says on the tin. They have been and done it, and deserve your respectm and it's a shame that this needs pointing out to you. You are not their equal, nor anything close, you cheeky young whipper snapper.
And you would not stand an earthly of being selected, anyway. You lack maturity, commitment, dedication and knowledge, and you lack the humility and people skills to be of any interest to the RAF. And unless you buy your way into a cockpit, then I'd predict that you're f*cked when it comes to the airlines too.
Cheers for brightening up my day dude, and for what it's worth a couldn't agree with you more. I also think he should try being groundcrew first - best way to become a pilot if you ask me, I just wish I had 60 grand to do it...
Guest
Posts: n/a
"Just a case of sending the application off" - Is the stage i was at when thinking of joining the RAF, not how 'easy' i thought it would be, not saying they would read it, not saying i would pass all of the tests, not saying i would walk straight into cranwell. Again, another misunderstanding.
Please Please PLEASE can we stop with whether or not the RAF would want me. Who are you to say whether i would get in if i wanted to, based on one thread on the internet. You don't know anything about me, not my qualifications, not my aptitude, not my physical abilities. I obviously should have uploaded my cv with this thread because everyone is jumping to conclusions.
"Additional:
You need to
1) Grow up.
2) Develop some tolerance of others.
3) Lighten up and take that stick out of your @rse.
4) Show your betters some respect. Many of those on Military Aircrew are exactly what it says on the tin. They have been and done it, and deserve your respectm and it's a shame that this needs pointing out to you. You are not their equal, nor anything close, you cheeky young whipper snapper.
And you would not stand an earthly of being selected, anyway. You lack maturity, commitment, dedication and knowledge, and you lack the humility and people skills to be of any interest to the RAF. And unless you buy your way into a cockpit, then I'd predict that you're f*cked when it comes to the airlines too. "
You think i have a poor tolerance of others? Well in this thread, i do and so would you if you asked for advice and just got insulted by the vast majority.
I have respect for the people who i aquire knowledge from, and i respect those who can give me guidance and advice, however, i am equal along with everyone else in the world. You are not a higher being if you are in the RAF, you are not superior to me. Again, i have respect for people in the RAF, just like i have respect for anyone else but your coment is completly out of line and absurd!
Please Please PLEASE can we stop with whether or not the RAF would want me. Who are you to say whether i would get in if i wanted to, based on one thread on the internet. You don't know anything about me, not my qualifications, not my aptitude, not my physical abilities. I obviously should have uploaded my cv with this thread because everyone is jumping to conclusions.
"Additional:
You need to
1) Grow up.
2) Develop some tolerance of others.
3) Lighten up and take that stick out of your @rse.
4) Show your betters some respect. Many of those on Military Aircrew are exactly what it says on the tin. They have been and done it, and deserve your respectm and it's a shame that this needs pointing out to you. You are not their equal, nor anything close, you cheeky young whipper snapper.
And you would not stand an earthly of being selected, anyway. You lack maturity, commitment, dedication and knowledge, and you lack the humility and people skills to be of any interest to the RAF. And unless you buy your way into a cockpit, then I'd predict that you're f*cked when it comes to the airlines too. "
You think i have a poor tolerance of others? Well in this thread, i do and so would you if you asked for advice and just got insulted by the vast majority.
I have respect for the people who i aquire knowledge from, and i respect those who can give me guidance and advice, however, i am equal along with everyone else in the world. You are not a higher being if you are in the RAF, you are not superior to me. Again, i have respect for people in the RAF, just like i have respect for anyone else but your coment is completly out of line and absurd!
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Planet Tharg
Posts: 2,472
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
These RAF types are just giving you a hard time, Sparky. I reckon you'd get a far better answer on www.arrse.co.uk if you ask them. I think the NAAFI Bar is probably the best place to post your question.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
SFH,
Sorry FH but you are plain wrong
Almost everyone here who has posted has been through the process. Some here have been very close to the process. May I assure you that you would spend 4 days at OASC to allow us to detail exactly why you are unsuitable.
Sorry but it true. An experienced instructor or selector can make an extremely accurate judgement in a few minutes. It might seem unfair. It might be seen as judging by appearances. When people fail it might seem as if we are working to fulfill a prophecy. We are not.
At a meet and greet, after one hour, Mrs PN and I decided you would pass and who would fail an 18 month course. We were 95% correct, not just on pass/fail but the order of the failures and passes.
You have been assessed for far longer than one hour. You have now got the opinion of some very erudite and enthusiastic people. Believe them and do what you said you would do. Look elsewhere.
Sorry FH but you are plain wrong
Who are you to say whether i would get in if i wanted to, based on one thread on the internet. You don't know anything about me, not my qualifications, not my aptitude, not my physical abilities.
Sorry but it true. An experienced instructor or selector can make an extremely accurate judgement in a few minutes. It might seem unfair. It might be seen as judging by appearances. When people fail it might seem as if we are working to fulfill a prophecy. We are not.
At a meet and greet, after one hour, Mrs PN and I decided you would pass and who would fail an 18 month course. We were 95% correct, not just on pass/fail but the order of the failures and passes.
You have been assessed for far longer than one hour. You have now got the opinion of some very erudite and enthusiastic people. Believe them and do what you said you would do. Look elsewhere.
You need to chill and re-read this thread.
You've experienced some mildly harsh banter, and have received some friendly and well meant (if unwelcome) advice. Whatever path you choose, you might want to consider why it is that you have provoked the reaction that you have, and perhaps think about how you might generate a more positive response.
Most of those posting here have done far more than I have - I've merely passed OASC aptitude tests, done UAS, done OASC again, passed and been given a Cranwell entry date before suffering a medical problem that put paid to my chosen career option, and because I didn't want to join in a ground branch I pursued journalism, and fly for fun.
But even with my limited experience, I can tell that you lack the maturity and humility to get through IOT (even if you passed selection), and nothing in what you've posted makes me think that you could convince an OASC board (they are very sharp cookies) that you had the required dedication and commitment.
Your first post was VERY illuminating, and not only because it showed your inability to use capitals or punctuate properly.
"i would love to drive home from heathrow knowing that i can go fishing that evening or meet up with some people at the pub etc. I want to live knowing that if i want to leave my job i can, if i want to move house i can etc etc."
Your reaction to AA's post (read into it and it's an explanation of the nature of military cameraderie, not a simple paean to drinking and high jinks) was equally telling.
Your comment that it was "a shame that BA don't operate Typhoons i suppose" was another illustration of the nature of your commitment, while I hope that "Yeah i think that just about seals the deal. Whats the point dying for your country, especially this one. I will stick to the civi world where i fly for a company who pay my mortage and not worry about SAMs etc.
Over the last year my views have changed on the military aspect. At first i was keen to be part of it but i think after thinking about it for a while its just not for me. World war I & II had heros facing certain death to save the country from invasion, now our boys are dying in someone elses' war.
Don't ask what you can do for your country, ask what your country can do for you.. was an attempt at banter. If you think that, then why are you even considering an application.
When you started answering back at #17 (you're a callow newbie on a professional pilot's bulletin board - in this context you are not their equal) made me suspect that you would be unable to take or exercise discipline or leadership. Your testy "I'm sure the banter is great fun on base but here while someone is asking for advice it really doesnt help" demonstrated to me that your social antennae need some adjustment - you're a guest here, and you have provoked every bit of banter you've received.
Your qualifications don't matter. Your aptitude doesn't matter. Your physical characteristics don't matter if you're not the 'balanced extrovert' that OASC is after, and if the board officers don't think you'd be able to fit in, or that you would be the "w*nker on someone's wing."
Like MiniGun Diplomat, I'd want to wish you luck, and hope against hope that this interlude on PPRuNe will provide you with a useful life lesson.
And I'd echo MGD's advice that "the military is not what you are looking for in any shape manner or form."
You've experienced some mildly harsh banter, and have received some friendly and well meant (if unwelcome) advice. Whatever path you choose, you might want to consider why it is that you have provoked the reaction that you have, and perhaps think about how you might generate a more positive response.
Most of those posting here have done far more than I have - I've merely passed OASC aptitude tests, done UAS, done OASC again, passed and been given a Cranwell entry date before suffering a medical problem that put paid to my chosen career option, and because I didn't want to join in a ground branch I pursued journalism, and fly for fun.
But even with my limited experience, I can tell that you lack the maturity and humility to get through IOT (even if you passed selection), and nothing in what you've posted makes me think that you could convince an OASC board (they are very sharp cookies) that you had the required dedication and commitment.
Your first post was VERY illuminating, and not only because it showed your inability to use capitals or punctuate properly.
"i would love to drive home from heathrow knowing that i can go fishing that evening or meet up with some people at the pub etc. I want to live knowing that if i want to leave my job i can, if i want to move house i can etc etc."
Your reaction to AA's post (read into it and it's an explanation of the nature of military cameraderie, not a simple paean to drinking and high jinks) was equally telling.
Your comment that it was "a shame that BA don't operate Typhoons i suppose" was another illustration of the nature of your commitment, while I hope that "Yeah i think that just about seals the deal. Whats the point dying for your country, especially this one. I will stick to the civi world where i fly for a company who pay my mortage and not worry about SAMs etc.
Over the last year my views have changed on the military aspect. At first i was keen to be part of it but i think after thinking about it for a while its just not for me. World war I & II had heros facing certain death to save the country from invasion, now our boys are dying in someone elses' war.
Don't ask what you can do for your country, ask what your country can do for you.. was an attempt at banter. If you think that, then why are you even considering an application.
When you started answering back at #17 (you're a callow newbie on a professional pilot's bulletin board - in this context you are not their equal) made me suspect that you would be unable to take or exercise discipline or leadership. Your testy "I'm sure the banter is great fun on base but here while someone is asking for advice it really doesnt help" demonstrated to me that your social antennae need some adjustment - you're a guest here, and you have provoked every bit of banter you've received.
Your qualifications don't matter. Your aptitude doesn't matter. Your physical characteristics don't matter if you're not the 'balanced extrovert' that OASC is after, and if the board officers don't think you'd be able to fit in, or that you would be the "w*nker on someone's wing."
Like MiniGun Diplomat, I'd want to wish you luck, and hope against hope that this interlude on PPRuNe will provide you with a useful life lesson.
And I'd echo MGD's advice that "the military is not what you are looking for in any shape manner or form."
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 390
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Who are you to say whether i would get in if i wanted to, based on one thread on the internet.
You'd be surprised sonny.
And no, based on what I've read, you wouldn't get in. Trust me...!
You'd be surprised sonny.
And no, based on what I've read, you wouldn't get in. Trust me...!
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Detroit MI
Age: 66
Posts: 1,460
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jacko has said it superbly... Hat's off to you Jacko... But I'll add the following because I believe it to be quite telling:-
That is an utterly erroneous assumption on your part. Worse than being simply erroneous it assumes that any individual is capable of exactly the same results in any test or trial as any other individual. Plainly, that is an incorrect assumption because, were it to be true, (at my peak - which, in itself, is telling), I would have been competing in the 1982 Olympics... But I wasn't "equal" enough to those other marathon runners to compete.
Equality is a myth promulgated by the weak and inept to try to ameliorate their inadequacies. Simple as that. In the end they are still weak and inept.
i am equal along with everyone else in the world
Equality is a myth promulgated by the weak and inept to try to ameliorate their inadequacies. Simple as that. In the end they are still weak and inept.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Age: 84
Posts: 897
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Don't waste your time Sparky
You can complain as much as you like about the response you have seen here, but the fact remains that the RAF know a thing or two about selection of the people who want to fly. The fact that they know more than you for example, is why so many don't get to be one of that elite and hugely talented bunch.
I don't care about your personal background, not at all, and I don't give a fat rat's arse whether you bat for the B side, but I will tell you that, based on the attitude shown here, the RAF won't want you. You won't get past first base, and you most certainly won't make selection. You have none of the attributes required. As an aside, I would hate to think you were flying anything I was a passenger in!
I don't care about your personal background, not at all, and I don't give a fat rat's arse whether you bat for the B side, but I will tell you that, based on the attitude shown here, the RAF won't want you. You won't get past first base, and you most certainly won't make selection. You have none of the attributes required. As an aside, I would hate to think you were flying anything I was a passenger in!
What a thoroughly entertaining thread!
Best of luck for the future, wouldn't say that you're what the RAF is looking for but that's my own humble opinion!
By the by, learn to take banter in any shape or form, you look much more like an a***hole if you complain about it!
Best of luck for the future, wouldn't say that you're what the RAF is looking for but that's my own humble opinion!
By the by, learn to take banter in any shape or form, you look much more like an a***hole if you complain about it!
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,451
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sparky, on my pilot's course, we had a bloke who was a lot like you (or should I say, "to judge from the unfortunate comments you've made here, you seem to be a lot like him"). He arrived on course with a full commercial pilot's licence, which seemed amazing to the rest of us at the time, and in the first few days of the course, when we were all sussing each other out, that gave him and his (many) opinions huge 'street cred'.
He never saw an aeroplane, at least in the Services. Never got near one. I think he was the very first to be 'let go' by the System - and as far as the rest of us on course with him were concerned, the System took far longer reaching that conclusion than was necessary. I suspect he only got onto the course because of his considerable flying experience when someone decided to overlook what must have been the many red flags that must have been raised by the rest of his profile.
The service life isn't for everyone. You may be very well suited for any number of career paths and you may prove to be extraordinarily successful in quite a few of them. (For example, merchant banking comes immediately to mind. ...or airline management.
[Inside joke - just kidding.]) However, from your comments here, I think you've saved youself a few wasted hours filling in complicated application forms, and it would seem that quite a few others who have jumped through similar hoops to the ones I did agree with me.
He never saw an aeroplane, at least in the Services. Never got near one. I think he was the very first to be 'let go' by the System - and as far as the rest of us on course with him were concerned, the System took far longer reaching that conclusion than was necessary. I suspect he only got onto the course because of his considerable flying experience when someone decided to overlook what must have been the many red flags that must have been raised by the rest of his profile.
The service life isn't for everyone. You may be very well suited for any number of career paths and you may prove to be extraordinarily successful in quite a few of them. (For example, merchant banking comes immediately to mind. ...or airline management.
[Inside joke - just kidding.]) However, from your comments here, I think you've saved youself a few wasted hours filling in complicated application forms, and it would seem that quite a few others who have jumped through similar hoops to the ones I did agree with me.
Last edited by Wiley; 9th Sep 2008 at 01:03.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: England
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Please take this in the light-hearted nature that it is intended -
"At a meet and greet, after one hour, Mrs PN and I decided you would pass and who would fail an 18 month course. We were 95% correct, not just on pass/fail but the order of the failures and passes."
I am surprised the figure isn't 100%.
(Just the way I read it first time!)
"At a meet and greet, after one hour, Mrs PN and I decided you would pass and who would fail an 18 month course. We were 95% correct, not just on pass/fail but the order of the failures and passes."
I am surprised the figure isn't 100%.
(Just the way I read it first time!)
Guest
Posts: n/a
Firstly I would like to apologize. I seem to have provoked a reaction existentially and the whole thread has revolved around that and the ensuing arguments.
I feel that I have been treated unfairly in some respects in regards to some of the insulting replies. When I say 'insulting replies', I refer to the ones that have no intention of helping or answering any form of question or giving any manner of constructive criticism. However, I respect the people who know more than me about this subject and I wouldn't have asked here if I didn't.
I fully understand that although perhaps harshly put forward, there is advice to be taken from this thread, and I HAVE taken it. I would like to remind people however that a lot of what I have been scrutinized on in this thread, relates to my somewhat angry and confused replies/defence. I feel that this thread does not accurately portray my attitudes due to the aforementioned reasons but I am in no way out to prove anything to the people on here.
I would like to thank the useful comments and personal messages I have received, they have helped to answer the questions I set out originally. I am impressed that a lot of people have stuck together here and I think that shows what the RAF is really about, great comradeship. Perhaps I am a bit behind on the banter and inside jokes, but please bear with me. This thread was never to ask for opinions on whether or not I would pass OASC, IOT or any other form of training or selection.
Before anyone meticulously analyses this post and picks me up on my grammar, spelling or general command of the English language, I apologize as in my previous posts I was writing on a post-it note which appeared to have been using my full mental capacity. (Thank you for reminding me that Heathrow is a proper noun and thus should be capitalized. That was definitely not a mistake and for people to even bother to mention it in a public forum on the internet, shows that the intention of their post may not be to help and advise the thread starter).
I am still undecided about joining the RAF and I understand that in some cases that means I shouldn't. However I still endeavour to find out even more than I already have about the RAF as well as myself, because at the end of the day, that is what really matters when considering such a career path.
SFH
I feel that I have been treated unfairly in some respects in regards to some of the insulting replies. When I say 'insulting replies', I refer to the ones that have no intention of helping or answering any form of question or giving any manner of constructive criticism. However, I respect the people who know more than me about this subject and I wouldn't have asked here if I didn't.
I fully understand that although perhaps harshly put forward, there is advice to be taken from this thread, and I HAVE taken it. I would like to remind people however that a lot of what I have been scrutinized on in this thread, relates to my somewhat angry and confused replies/defence. I feel that this thread does not accurately portray my attitudes due to the aforementioned reasons but I am in no way out to prove anything to the people on here.
I would like to thank the useful comments and personal messages I have received, they have helped to answer the questions I set out originally. I am impressed that a lot of people have stuck together here and I think that shows what the RAF is really about, great comradeship. Perhaps I am a bit behind on the banter and inside jokes, but please bear with me. This thread was never to ask for opinions on whether or not I would pass OASC, IOT or any other form of training or selection.
Before anyone meticulously analyses this post and picks me up on my grammar, spelling or general command of the English language, I apologize as in my previous posts I was writing on a post-it note which appeared to have been using my full mental capacity. (Thank you for reminding me that Heathrow is a proper noun and thus should be capitalized. That was definitely not a mistake and for people to even bother to mention it in a public forum on the internet, shows that the intention of their post may not be to help and advise the thread starter).
I am still undecided about joining the RAF and I understand that in some cases that means I shouldn't. However I still endeavour to find out even more than I already have about the RAF as well as myself, because at the end of the day, that is what really matters when considering such a career path.
SFH
Blimey!!
Where is the real SFH and what have you done with him!
From my perspective (which is becoming rapidly more distant), while the flying cannot be compared to anything else, the times that I think I will remember with the greatest clarity in years to come will have happened on the ground. Whether that was bantering round a coffee bar, in a mess bar or wherever it's the relationships and cameraderie that stays clearest in the mind. If you are of the type who would rather get away from it at the end of a day then the military probably isn't for you.
Where is the real SFH and what have you done with him!
From my perspective (which is becoming rapidly more distant), while the flying cannot be compared to anything else, the times that I think I will remember with the greatest clarity in years to come will have happened on the ground. Whether that was bantering round a coffee bar, in a mess bar or wherever it's the relationships and cameraderie that stays clearest in the mind. If you are of the type who would rather get away from it at the end of a day then the military probably isn't for you.