Enhanced Fri 2?
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Enhanced Fri 2?
A little bird told me that the powers that be, having not seen the flood held back by FRI 2 (100K) are considering an enhanced FRI 2 to the tune of 135K targeted at Senior officer (Sqn Ldr/Wg Cdr) Pilots. Anyone know if there is any truth in this?
I am approaching FRI 2 next year, still not sure if I want to stay or not, however an enhanced FRI 2 to the tune of 135K might just make the difference to help out with a little quality of life. Why not make it 167K which would give 100K after 40% tax - not that I care about the money of course!
I am sure there are people out there who resent this FRI as they will not qualify, however the simple fact is that approx 70-80% of Sqn Ldr and Wg Cdr pilots & WSO's are choosing to leave at IPP - hence the attempt at retention. Everyone is working hard, but life sometimes simply is not fair and there is nothing we can do about that other than to vote with our feet if we feel that is the only choice left open.
I am approaching FRI 2 next year, still not sure if I want to stay or not, however an enhanced FRI 2 to the tune of 135K might just make the difference to help out with a little quality of life. Why not make it 167K which would give 100K after 40% tax - not that I care about the money of course!
I am sure there are people out there who resent this FRI as they will not qualify, however the simple fact is that approx 70-80% of Sqn Ldr and Wg Cdr pilots & WSO's are choosing to leave at IPP - hence the attempt at retention. Everyone is working hard, but life sometimes simply is not fair and there is nothing we can do about that other than to vote with our feet if we feel that is the only choice left open.
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FRI is a good idea. But why target it to people 5 years from IPP as happened last time??!!. To those of us about to jump after 8 years there is no incentive to stay. To offer the FRI to those within 5 years of a nice pension.....is ludicrous!. Why??
Ralph
Ralph
Champagne anyone...?
And from whose magic arse does one propose these vast sums of cash will be pulled? My understanding is that there's no money for such things and there's a recession coming so no one will leave anyway. Problem solved.
Genius.
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Stop Start,
As reported on numerous threads, someones misfortune, presents someone with an opportunity. Areas where oil exploration was previously deemed as too remote and too expensive are now relying on helicopters to develop these sites.
Also, we like to think that we are the centre of the universe - but do not forget that the rest of the world is still on the look out for experienced aircrew. How many of us are off to the Southern Hemisphere or to the Middles East etc.
The jobs are out there, but as to extending FRI2 - nah, I doubt it there just is not the money left (unless some of the nation's Councils want to re-direct some of their more obsucre positions (e.g. Community Integrated Party Planner etc) then nothing is availible.
Your 'mate' or 'little bird' was placing a mythical carrot on the end of a stick hoping that you will keep on working towards Never Never Land
As reported on numerous threads, someones misfortune, presents someone with an opportunity. Areas where oil exploration was previously deemed as too remote and too expensive are now relying on helicopters to develop these sites.
Also, we like to think that we are the centre of the universe - but do not forget that the rest of the world is still on the look out for experienced aircrew. How many of us are off to the Southern Hemisphere or to the Middles East etc.
The jobs are out there, but as to extending FRI2 - nah, I doubt it there just is not the money left (unless some of the nation's Councils want to re-direct some of their more obsucre positions (e.g. Community Integrated Party Planner etc) then nothing is availible.
Your 'mate' or 'little bird' was placing a mythical carrot on the end of a stick hoping that you will keep on working towards Never Never Land
Stop/Start - one of the places this cash is pulled from is the guys down below at the bottom of the training system (sorry... pipeline!) who now don't get flying pay until end of OCU...
That's a couple of folks FRI's paid for...
That's a couple of folks FRI's paid for...
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No need to retain all the Sqn Ldr/ Wg Cdr pilots as there are shed loads of Flt Lt's and Sqn Ldr's just itchin for promotion 
.....................unfortunately as current trends show they are not always of the right calibre 
.....................unfortunately as current trends show they are not always of the right calibre
there are shed loads of Flt Lt's and Sqn Ldr's just itchin for promotion .....................unfortunately as current trends show they are not always of the right calibre
.....................unfortunately as current trends show they are not always of the right calibre
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My understanding is that there's no money for such things and there's a recession coming so no one will leave anyway. Problem solved.
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Op Twenty - the FRI is paid at exit point not at 5 years to go, otherwise that would be targeted at 33 year old Sqn Ldrs!
Anyway, this one is to try a keep a little more than the 20-30% of senior officer pilots who stay already, the supposed future of the RAF. That said I do agree that Flt Lt aircrew after 10-12 years of service are probably at their most disillusioned/operationally fatigued so perhaps another FRI should be introduced for them (again), but as someone else said, where do we get the money from?
Well it is cheaper to retain than to train, so go figure.....
Anyway, this one is to try a keep a little more than the 20-30% of senior officer pilots who stay already, the supposed future of the RAF. That said I do agree that Flt Lt aircrew after 10-12 years of service are probably at their most disillusioned/operationally fatigued so perhaps another FRI should be introduced for them (again), but as someone else said, where do we get the money from?
Well it is cheaper to retain than to train, so go figure.....
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I took the original 50K to stay at 33.....bit of a no-brainer as they say. But in those days we - sorry, you - were paying commissioned loadies 50k to stay ffs.
Anyway, I declined the kind offer of 100k to stay in a ground tour for another 5 years - as have most, as I understand it. Excepting those who were always going to stay anyway of course. Would an extra 20k or so - after tax - have swung it? Probably not, as the window for a proper second career would then be almost closed.
To be honest, do they - whoever they are - know who they are trying to retain? Experienced aircrew to bolster the experience levels on the FL? No; I know of guys who would stay for no FRI if they were guaranteed to stay flying. PMA cannot sign up to this. So, we need to retain experience to fill staff appointments. Then what? Another 5 years behind a desk, a couple of OOA, and no (well, less) prospect of employment. Or you pay me £75k to leave, plus 11k a year pension and I can start on my old salary, with guaranteed (yes, the union makes sure of that) pay rises. It may be less exciting flying than in the RAF, but it is flying.
I don't have the answers, but I hope for all our sakes that someone does.
Anyway, I declined the kind offer of 100k to stay in a ground tour for another 5 years - as have most, as I understand it. Excepting those who were always going to stay anyway of course. Would an extra 20k or so - after tax - have swung it? Probably not, as the window for a proper second career would then be almost closed.
To be honest, do they - whoever they are - know who they are trying to retain? Experienced aircrew to bolster the experience levels on the FL? No; I know of guys who would stay for no FRI if they were guaranteed to stay flying. PMA cannot sign up to this. So, we need to retain experience to fill staff appointments. Then what? Another 5 years behind a desk, a couple of OOA, and no (well, less) prospect of employment. Or you pay me £75k to leave, plus 11k a year pension and I can start on my old salary, with guaranteed (yes, the union makes sure of that) pay rises. It may be less exciting flying than in the RAF, but it is flying.
I don't have the answers, but I hope for all our sakes that someone does.
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Good point - if they catch you between 38-40 for 5 years, then a genuine second career is harder to achieve. It is not impossible, but in comparison to a younger guys that 'pulls the yellow and black' at say 33-38, he has all of the experience and the opportunity to really make a go of a second career.
I suppose the rationale (which I am slowly coming around to) is that if may career is going to put me behind a desk in the Forces, then why not leave at a point where I know that within a few years there is every possibility that my previous military experience etc etc will put me on a better salary than if I slogged my (and my families) guts out running through the quagmire that we are currently in trying to sort out the mess that we are due to lack of investment and yet over commitment.
This to me is where the maths just doesn't add up - 60k in the bank is nothing in comparison to some of the salaries/bonuses are that are achieveable if the decision is made to take your skills to civialian strasse early enough.
I suppose the rationale (which I am slowly coming around to) is that if may career is going to put me behind a desk in the Forces, then why not leave at a point where I know that within a few years there is every possibility that my previous military experience etc etc will put me on a better salary than if I slogged my (and my families) guts out running through the quagmire that we are currently in trying to sort out the mess that we are due to lack of investment and yet over commitment.
This to me is where the maths just doesn't add up - 60k in the bank is nothing in comparison to some of the salaries/bonuses are that are achieveable if the decision is made to take your skills to civialian strasse early enough.
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The MOD needs to lance this FRI boil once and for all. This ‘me, me, me’ ‘I want, I want’ self-centred attitude that is growing within the Services* needs to be stopped in its tracks. Leave pay to the AFPRB (FRI recommendations aside). Beyond day-to-day operational needs, cdrs should be given the resources to focus on the wider needs to enhance Service life and not have their budgets slashed year-on-year to service FRI payments. To have a long-term manning policy dictated by cyclic financial incentives is far too divisive - it plays its part in going against the very ethos of what a career in the Services is all about.
To those that ‘continually’ complain, I say “Go”. I would prefer to walk the extra mile, fly the extra hour, and mothball a squadron of jets, than have people like you breathe the same air as me. I do not like being held to ransom.
[* I accept the argument that the Services are a reflection of society, and vice versa.]
AA
To those that ‘continually’ complain, I say “Go”. I would prefer to walk the extra mile, fly the extra hour, and mothball a squadron of jets, than have people like you breathe the same air as me. I do not like being held to ransom.
[* I accept the argument that the Services are a reflection of society, and vice versa.]
AA
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AA - I agree entirely, it is the longer term quality of life aspects that should be addressed iot keep people in the service. Things such as health care for your families (preventing the eternal hunt for an NHS dentist when you are forced to move every 2-3 years), good quality housing, an excellent education package for children and rest (but still flying) tours for aviators who have spent a great deal of time on the front line living in a tent.
Addressing this might go a little way towards retention, but the FRI is only for those who staying anyway, as Brit Bus Driver stated, you are paid 75K plus 11K a year to leave so why stay when the prospect is more and more out of areas (with the potential of 9 or 12 month posts beckoning!)
I am at the cross roads right now and still am not sure what to do, I have done nothing but fly for the last 15 years and am now in a great staff job (yes they do exist) but am not sure what is available in the civ market for RW pilots these days. On e thing is for sure, I will be doing my licenses very soon to give myself options.
Addressing this might go a little way towards retention, but the FRI is only for those who staying anyway, as Brit Bus Driver stated, you are paid 75K plus 11K a year to leave so why stay when the prospect is more and more out of areas (with the potential of 9 or 12 month posts beckoning!)
I am at the cross roads right now and still am not sure what to do, I have done nothing but fly for the last 15 years and am now in a great staff job (yes they do exist) but am not sure what is available in the civ market for RW pilots these days. On e thing is for sure, I will be doing my licenses very soon to give myself options.
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Ancient Aviator,
You were not serving in the hierarchy of the Army Air Corps were you? Although conceptually and from an ethos perspective I could not agree more with you. However, the reality is that if you say, 'go' to people whom have dedicated many years fighting (and yes we can use this term now without being accused of being over dramatic) for Queen & Country then 'go' we will.
I have loyalty, I have esprit de corps, I have a strong military ethos, I love my job, I still love the flying (although we are regulating ourselves out of doing it!), and I do not mind the odd desk job.
But how do I look Mrs MM4 and the little MM4's in the eye when they see friends and colleagues earning more than me and having a more stable lifestyle. Sports days, nativity plays etc etc.
I do not think that you fully understand the implications and consequences of your words when you use the passionate language that you do. We are short of experienced operators on the frontline and also short of experienced staff officers to deliver informed and experienced staff work.
You saying, 'go' will result in them going - the 'pull' from the civilian market is very strong despite all of the talk of a recession. Add to that the comfortable cushion of the Forces pension and it is all too easy to 'go'. Bear in mind that the average divorce costs significantly more than any FRI and has unquantifiable emotional costs.
And when these people 'go' to free up some air for you to breathe, then those left have to double their workload, and I even know of one person running 4 desks after they could not be filled. Ultimately, his wife gave him the 'yellow card' and he left, leaving you with even more air to breathe.
So for the sake of a paltry 100k (which is nothing when you compare it to bailing out Northern Rock a second time for 3bn) then if we can retain or incentivise people to endure and work through the current 'stretched' conditions, then I am all for it.
Now you are probably saying that I am bias, because I am about to get my FRI. Nope, I already have mine a number of years ago and it did the job. I was just about to leave with a family that had enough. It has managed to soften to the blow and the hardship for them. Has anything changed, no - I still deploy just as regularly and I have a desk to look forward to next.
But Ancient Aviator they now recognise that the skiing holiday, the reduction in the mortgage payments and the small things like a proper designer dress for the wife have 'bought' them onboard for the rest of my career.
Is it right - I do not know. Did it work - yes. Would anything else have worked - less time away, but that just isn't going to happen for us rotary types. Has it got me for life now - yes. Is my family happy and more accepting of the situation - yes.
If you want my personal opinion, I think that the FRI does work and is at the right amount. Yes there are those that were going to stay anyway, but there is a greater percentage that are either weighing up their options now or will always be looking at the back page of Flight International or the Flight Global web site. The FRI stops that, at least for 5 years, which as discussed above (and certainly in my case) has stopped me looking outside. Come on, the grass does look greener on the outside, and everyone I have spoken to says that it is greener.
The other option is to increase the pay in line with the civilian sector, and it will not take much of review by the AFPRB to discover that the pay and conditions of many of our civilian counterparts are much better off financially and with quality of life.
Sorry, AA I think you may wish to review your retention iniative beyond just saying, 'go' otherwise you may find yourself very quickly at critical mass when everyone does 'go' at a crucial time in a conflict that is desperately requiring aircrew to play their part, both in the air and in the numerous command and staff positions.
You were not serving in the hierarchy of the Army Air Corps were you? Although conceptually and from an ethos perspective I could not agree more with you. However, the reality is that if you say, 'go' to people whom have dedicated many years fighting (and yes we can use this term now without being accused of being over dramatic) for Queen & Country then 'go' we will.
I have loyalty, I have esprit de corps, I have a strong military ethos, I love my job, I still love the flying (although we are regulating ourselves out of doing it!), and I do not mind the odd desk job.
But how do I look Mrs MM4 and the little MM4's in the eye when they see friends and colleagues earning more than me and having a more stable lifestyle. Sports days, nativity plays etc etc.
I do not think that you fully understand the implications and consequences of your words when you use the passionate language that you do. We are short of experienced operators on the frontline and also short of experienced staff officers to deliver informed and experienced staff work.
You saying, 'go' will result in them going - the 'pull' from the civilian market is very strong despite all of the talk of a recession. Add to that the comfortable cushion of the Forces pension and it is all too easy to 'go'. Bear in mind that the average divorce costs significantly more than any FRI and has unquantifiable emotional costs.
And when these people 'go' to free up some air for you to breathe, then those left have to double their workload, and I even know of one person running 4 desks after they could not be filled. Ultimately, his wife gave him the 'yellow card' and he left, leaving you with even more air to breathe.
So for the sake of a paltry 100k (which is nothing when you compare it to bailing out Northern Rock a second time for 3bn) then if we can retain or incentivise people to endure and work through the current 'stretched' conditions, then I am all for it.
Now you are probably saying that I am bias, because I am about to get my FRI. Nope, I already have mine a number of years ago and it did the job. I was just about to leave with a family that had enough. It has managed to soften to the blow and the hardship for them. Has anything changed, no - I still deploy just as regularly and I have a desk to look forward to next.
But Ancient Aviator they now recognise that the skiing holiday, the reduction in the mortgage payments and the small things like a proper designer dress for the wife have 'bought' them onboard for the rest of my career.
Is it right - I do not know. Did it work - yes. Would anything else have worked - less time away, but that just isn't going to happen for us rotary types. Has it got me for life now - yes. Is my family happy and more accepting of the situation - yes.
If you want my personal opinion, I think that the FRI does work and is at the right amount. Yes there are those that were going to stay anyway, but there is a greater percentage that are either weighing up their options now or will always be looking at the back page of Flight International or the Flight Global web site. The FRI stops that, at least for 5 years, which as discussed above (and certainly in my case) has stopped me looking outside. Come on, the grass does look greener on the outside, and everyone I have spoken to says that it is greener.
The other option is to increase the pay in line with the civilian sector, and it will not take much of review by the AFPRB to discover that the pay and conditions of many of our civilian counterparts are much better off financially and with quality of life.
Sorry, AA I think you may wish to review your retention iniative beyond just saying, 'go' otherwise you may find yourself very quickly at critical mass when everyone does 'go' at a crucial time in a conflict that is desperately requiring aircrew to play their part, both in the air and in the numerous command and staff positions.
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Any thoughts on an FRI for aircrew making their 6yr return of sevice? Experince is hurting in the end of 2nd-3rd tour aviators. With the current Op tempo I can see the door opening and that tranche of the next generation taking the PVR hit for a better lifestyle.
It is not only the SO2/SO1's that are looking at their options!
SIA
It is not only the SO2/SO1's that are looking at their options!
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Good post MaroonMan4, I think you summed up the situation pretty well there.
There is no doubt in my mind that FRI is divisive and takes away from the overall esprit de corps of the Service. It may well work in some cases, but as a 3rd tourist ME captain it's not more money I really want, it's quality of life for me and my family.
The continued erosion of investment in the Services and the reduction of all the 'perks' of Service life is, I would suggest, the biggest push and coupled with the pull from outside there shouldn't be any surprise as to the situation we now find ourselves in. I'd far rather see the FRI budget was added to an increase in the defence budget such that the Services became more work hard/play hard than just work hard.
There is no doubt in my mind that FRI is divisive and takes away from the overall esprit de corps of the Service. It may well work in some cases, but as a 3rd tourist ME captain it's not more money I really want, it's quality of life for me and my family.
The continued erosion of investment in the Services and the reduction of all the 'perks' of Service life is, I would suggest, the biggest push and coupled with the pull from outside there shouldn't be any surprise as to the situation we now find ourselves in. I'd far rather see the FRI budget was added to an increase in the defence budget such that the Services became more work hard/play hard than just work hard.
