PVR = Half Flying Pay!!!!!!!
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Why pick on aircrew, simply because they have greater earning potential?
it was only the aircrew that did the fighting in the RAF
As for moosemaster. If you are going for NCA-related work, you might have a point. If not, you are deluded. Your 'peers' on the ground would have far more extensive man management, project management and other general middle management experience than most any NCA. All IMHO of course.
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As for moosemaster. If you are going for NCA-related work, you might have a point. If not, you are deluded. Your 'peers' on the ground would have far more extensive man management, project management and other general middle management experience than most any NCA. All IMHO of course.
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The skills/qualities I am talking about are the ability to work as part of a team when needed, but also take charge when required. The ability to follow instruction, but also show initiative. The ability to think outside the box, to see the big picture but also see the small picture from someone elses viewpoint. The ability to organise oneself. (NOT AN EXHAUSTIVE LIST)
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I would expect a groundcrew SNCO to have them as well, as would the employers "in the know" who I mentioned before.
Mr C, I was merely using the previously stated example of groundcrew Cpl/Sgt as a reference. In the eyes of a normal employer, man-management and project management can be taught, easily. The ability to think outside the box cannot. Self motivation cannot be taught. Self discipline can be taught, but why bother when applicant A has already proved they have it. That just erodes profit margins. The thing is perception. An aircrew mate is percieved to have more of these skills than a groundcrew mate. You and I know that may not be the case, but the perception among the majority of employers remains.
I think everyone will admit that more money is put into training aircrew than is put into training groundcrew, even in the "soft skills" environment and I am not entering into that.
My point is that aircrew mates, by the nature of the roles they fulfill, display the qualities that certain employers want, but do not want to invest in, or do not have the time to nurture.
For the record I was offered 4 positions whilst on resettlement.
All 4 were aviation related, but only two were NCA related.
3 of the 4 paid more than the RAF. (Granted the 2 NCA related ones were the lowest paid
)
Not one required my PRINCE2 qualification, nor any level of man-management skills at all other than interacting with others of different levels, which I would expect in all service personnel from LAC up to CAS, regardless of trade.
Earning potential is where one looks for it. If one looks in all the usual places, one finds the usual things. Think outside the box!
Mr C, I was merely using the previously stated example of groundcrew Cpl/Sgt as a reference. In the eyes of a normal employer, man-management and project management can be taught, easily. The ability to think outside the box cannot. Self motivation cannot be taught. Self discipline can be taught, but why bother when applicant A has already proved they have it. That just erodes profit margins. The thing is perception. An aircrew mate is percieved to have more of these skills than a groundcrew mate. You and I know that may not be the case, but the perception among the majority of employers remains.
I think everyone will admit that more money is put into training aircrew than is put into training groundcrew, even in the "soft skills" environment and I am not entering into that.
My point is that aircrew mates, by the nature of the roles they fulfill, display the qualities that certain employers want, but do not want to invest in, or do not have the time to nurture.
For the record I was offered 4 positions whilst on resettlement.
All 4 were aviation related, but only two were NCA related.
3 of the 4 paid more than the RAF. (Granted the 2 NCA related ones were the lowest paid
)Not one required my PRINCE2 qualification, nor any level of man-management skills at all other than interacting with others of different levels, which I would expect in all service personnel from LAC up to CAS, regardless of trade.
Earning potential is where one looks for it. If one looks in all the usual places, one finds the usual things. Think outside the box!
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Re-reading the post it sounds as if I am dissing groundcrew.
I am not.
Knowing both sides of the fence as I do, I reckon it should be possible for all service leavers to increase their earnings.
I was merely stating that it might easier for an aircrew mate to do so by changing direction, whereas a groundcrew mate may be able to increase earnings while remaining within the same field.
Nothing more, nothing less.
I am not.
Knowing both sides of the fence as I do, I reckon it should be possible for all service leavers to increase their earnings.
I was merely stating that it might easier for an aircrew mate to do so by changing direction, whereas a groundcrew mate may be able to increase earnings while remaining within the same field.
Nothing more, nothing less.
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Number-Cruncher
Look at this lot above:
Now tell me that you'll miss it . . .
As for what the Publications say - they are written by some of the most slippery invertebrates on the planet and will say anything they want even if it changes what was previously written.
I SO don't miss that side of the military. That said it was still the greatest flying and bunch of blokes I've ever worked with. Tactical low level and AAR - mustard! In fairness though, nobody but the ex-wife wanted me dead!
Fly safe.
Now tell me that you'll miss it . . .
As for what the Publications say - they are written by some of the most slippery invertebrates on the planet and will say anything they want even if it changes what was previously written.
I SO don't miss that side of the military. That said it was still the greatest flying and bunch of blokes I've ever worked with. Tactical low level and AAR - mustard! In fairness though, nobody but the ex-wife wanted me dead!
Fly safe.
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moosemaster - your post is just generally insulting to the incredibly resourceful, capable and vastly broad-skilled backbone of the ground Trades I have had the pleasure to work with. I take it you have never worked with Caterers, Suppliers, MTDs, Adminers etc.
I don't know whether you equate 'proving it' to being NCA over NCO. I also don't know whether you equate the incredibly tightly regulated world of aircraft operations to the far less rigid and creative world of ground Trades, but the latitude, breadth of thought and downright low cunning I've had the pleasure of witnessing over the years are beyond reproach. These people perform minor miracles on a daily basis until it becomes the accepted norm. You evidently have no concept of the breadth of knowledge and experience needed to be a good NCO.
You do know that, away from aircraft, we don't get an OCU when we change jobs don't you?
man-management and project management can be taught, easily. The ability to think outside the box cannot. Self motivation cannot be taught. Self discipline can be taught, but why bother when applicant A has already proved they have it.
You do know that, away from aircraft, we don't get an OCU when we change jobs don't you?
It was not only post cold war
During the early days of World War Two, 33 Sqn achieved impressive victories over the Italian fighters but by March 1941, 33 Sqn found itself fighting the Luftwaffe in Greece. By May 1941, the Allies had pushed back to Crete and it was there that 33 Squadron's ground crew distinguished themselves in battle. Alongside Australian, New Zealand and Greek troops, 33 Sqn fought to repel thousands of German paratroopers around the airfield at Maleme. After ten days, the surviving ground crew were evacuated to Egypt where they rejoined the Squadron.
Should that last line read "They rejoined the aircrew that ran away, and didn't fight"?
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oh dear,
another thread which has degenerated into a sad slanging match.
how on earth do you infer that from my comment? 
I certainly do not think or assume that anyone else wants to fly and, frankly, I don't care! There are many posters on here who so obviously have deep-seated resentment just waiting to bubble to the surface, I cant imagine why they bother to look at pprune at all.
another thread which has degenerated into a sad slanging match.
Quote:
Why pick on aircrew, simply because they have greater earning potential?
There it is again - the ego that also believes we all want to fly!
Why pick on aircrew, simply because they have greater earning potential?
There it is again - the ego that also believes we all want to fly!
I certainly do not think or assume that anyone else wants to fly and, frankly, I don't care! There are many posters on here who so obviously have deep-seated resentment just waiting to bubble to the surface, I cant imagine why they bother to look at pprune at all.
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Tester07 - this 'greater earning potential' is my sticking point. There are many other people who have gone on to do very well - financially too if that flicks your switch. I'm just trying to get across that pilots are not the highest paid people in the world and military pilots don't always make a smooth transition. Why worry about your FP - you're obviously off to earn squillions more anyway.
BTW - you are the one feeling picked on right now. Bless. Hugs for all.
BTW - you are the one feeling picked on right now. Bless. Hugs for all.
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There are many other people who have gone on to do very well
That is not what we are talking about at all.
We are talking about flying pay (or we are supposed to be.....) and whether or not it is fair that it gets cut when you PVR.
As usual the anti-aircrew posse come out of the woodwork and hijack the thread with '0oh you aircrew think you are so special'. It is not about that at all.
As you say I am out of it now earning my squillions, and fortunately I didnt have to PVR, but a considerable amount of the salary I earned for all of those years and paid tax on was non-pensionable........and that was not right.
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Moosemaster said: .. qualified aircrew have already displayed the qualities which many employers seek, rather than groundcrew who, although they may possess the skills, have not necessarily displayed or used them in a work environment, nor has the service provided them the training in order to "hone" such skills.
That is such a bizarre and random thing to say.
Tester said: but a considerable amount of the salary I earned for all of those years and paid tax on was non-pensionable........and that was not right.
! You may not like it, but its perfectly legal.
Moosie again: In the eyes of a normal employer, man-management and project management can be taught, easily. The ability to think outside the box cannot. Self motivation cannot be taught. Self discipline can be taught, but why bother when applicant A has already proved they have it. That just erodes profit margins.
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The point I was trying to make was that other trades and in particular groundcrew trades could well be offered some sort of retention incentive like Aircrew, this might (doubt it) stop some of the rush to the exit gates like Aircrew flying pay is meant to do for the flying types.
The reason the service might benefit from this is that groundies at the moment are in huge demand outside in civvy street and in many cases they can double their wages for half the crap! keeping experienced men with those kinds of offers is always going to be a tough ask.
Pilots aside (who need to do their hours first anyway) Aircrew aren't IMHO nearly as employable as a good experienced groundie, what are they going to do? Mr Jobcenter man I used to be a loadie what can you offer me? I used to track submarines can you get me a job? etc etc most of these people will have to take a change of direction as there simply aren't many direct equivalents in civvy street.
Yes they might have good skills in management, self motivation, self discilpline etc etc, so will all the good Snco's Nco's Jt's and many experienced Sac's.
The thing that most impresses potential employers is experience, and that is something that you can't teach at cranwell, something that you won't get along with your brevet!
Moose I may concede you a small point on the possible perception that Aircrew have better skills, but I would still wager experienced groundies leaving will have better chances of employment than many non pilot aircrew.
And for precisely that reason the powers that be should consider some sort of incentive/retention scheme for Groundcrew before it is too late, oh yes and they had better make it a good one too for it to work.
The reason the service might benefit from this is that groundies at the moment are in huge demand outside in civvy street and in many cases they can double their wages for half the crap! keeping experienced men with those kinds of offers is always going to be a tough ask.
Pilots aside (who need to do their hours first anyway) Aircrew aren't IMHO nearly as employable as a good experienced groundie, what are they going to do? Mr Jobcenter man I used to be a loadie what can you offer me? I used to track submarines can you get me a job? etc etc most of these people will have to take a change of direction as there simply aren't many direct equivalents in civvy street.
Yes they might have good skills in management, self motivation, self discilpline etc etc, so will all the good Snco's Nco's Jt's and many experienced Sac's.
The thing that most impresses potential employers is experience, and that is something that you can't teach at cranwell, something that you won't get along with your brevet!
Moose I may concede you a small point on the possible perception that Aircrew have better skills, but I would still wager experienced groundies leaving will have better chances of employment than many non pilot aircrew.
And for precisely that reason the powers that be should consider some sort of incentive/retention scheme for Groundcrew before it is too late, oh yes and they had better make it a good one too for it to work.
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Flying pay compensates slower promotion prospects
I personally see flying pay as a reward for being very capable but prejudiced for slower promotion.
For instance, an admin sec officer will get 3 tours under his/her shiny belt before a fast jet pilot reaches the front line. This, combined with the fact that aircrew are a more competitive and capable group, makes promotion to senior rank in the same timescale very unlikely. So flying pay compensates a little for this.
I know that this is not the official purpose of flying pay but that's the way it is. Aircrew flt lts, on the same pay as a blunty sqn ldr, will not consider a sqn ldr blunty to have any rank kudos whatsover as he/she would respect in an aircrew sqn ldr. I don't mean to offend...it's just a fact.
For instance, an admin sec officer will get 3 tours under his/her shiny belt before a fast jet pilot reaches the front line. This, combined with the fact that aircrew are a more competitive and capable group, makes promotion to senior rank in the same timescale very unlikely. So flying pay compensates a little for this.
I know that this is not the official purpose of flying pay but that's the way it is. Aircrew flt lts, on the same pay as a blunty sqn ldr, will not consider a sqn ldr blunty to have any rank kudos whatsover as he/she would respect in an aircrew sqn ldr. I don't mean to offend...it's just a fact.
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Would that be the same way that a Real Sgt Views a "plastic" NCA Sgt???
Crazy monkey you are a crazy man! just because someone elses system might be quicker at promotion than yours doesn't make yours any more worthwhile I am afraid
Just a fact? only in your head and the egotistical planet you live on.
Crazy monkey you are a crazy man! just because someone elses system might be quicker at promotion than yours doesn't make yours any more worthwhile I am afraid
Just a fact? only in your head and the egotistical planet you live on.
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number-cruncher,
Same boat as you mate but 21 years under my belt, loosing a bit more than 3 quid a day!!
Hoped this thread would be full of ways of getting that money back but sadly it's another reflection of where we are as a service, reduced to infighting, backstabbing, petty mud slinging and pointless willy waggling. I don't give two hoots if I am superior or inferior to anyone else out there or if someone gets more or less than me, I just want to be respected and valued for the role I play in the, once great, Royal Air Force. It seems that because few of us feel that way we have developed a bully culture where putting others down makes us feel better about ourselves. Subsequently, now, we look for personal attacks in all that is said and think the worst.
Perhaps it IS time to go and watch the service self destruct from outside. If it makes someone feel superior by taking half my flying pay then so be it, I will make it up soon enough. I just hope it goes towards some useful kit for everyone left in dangerous places. (I would hate someone to fall off a perfectly good chair in Whitehall and injure themselves when my flying pay could have bought them a shiney new one.)
Yep..... time to go
Not bitter.......... just twisted
Same boat as you mate but 21 years under my belt, loosing a bit more than 3 quid a day!!
Hoped this thread would be full of ways of getting that money back but sadly it's another reflection of where we are as a service, reduced to infighting, backstabbing, petty mud slinging and pointless willy waggling. I don't give two hoots if I am superior or inferior to anyone else out there or if someone gets more or less than me, I just want to be respected and valued for the role I play in the, once great, Royal Air Force. It seems that because few of us feel that way we have developed a bully culture where putting others down makes us feel better about ourselves. Subsequently, now, we look for personal attacks in all that is said and think the worst.
Perhaps it IS time to go and watch the service self destruct from outside. If it makes someone feel superior by taking half my flying pay then so be it, I will make it up soon enough. I just hope it goes towards some useful kit for everyone left in dangerous places. (I would hate someone to fall off a perfectly good chair in Whitehall and injure themselves when my flying pay could have bought them a shiney new one.)
Yep..... time to go
Not bitter.......... just twisted
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I guess I'm just saying.......
"Why do we feel the need to have a pop at anyone and everyone?"
Banter.......bring it on, but some of these guys actually take it seriously.
If all aircrew are t*ssers, groundcrew w*nkers, shineys plebs and everyone else not worth a mention then where are all the good guys I joined up with?
We can all take the p*ss out of each other but it seems we have forgotten when to stop.
Please don't think I have gone soft on movers after my tree hugging tonight........I still hate them more than route queens, fast jet pukes and snowdrops..........
Sorry guys, told you.....twisted!!
time for bed
"Why do we feel the need to have a pop at anyone and everyone?"
Banter.......bring it on, but some of these guys actually take it seriously.
If all aircrew are t*ssers, groundcrew w*nkers, shineys plebs and everyone else not worth a mention then where are all the good guys I joined up with?
We can all take the p*ss out of each other but it seems we have forgotten when to stop.
Please don't think I have gone soft on movers after my tree hugging tonight........I still hate them more than route queens, fast jet pukes and snowdrops..........
Sorry guys, told you.....twisted!!
time for bed
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Mad Eng has hit the nail firmly on its head,
there's no need to have a pop at anyone else - it's a sign of insecurity. You think somebody else is getting some sort of unfair advantage? Fair enough, change trade and gain the advantage for yourself.
Many will exit with highly rated skills - 'being able to make a (sensible) decision quickly, without a committee' for example, 'willing to accept responsibility' is another.
Dave
(PVR exit class of 2000!)
there's no need to have a pop at anyone else - it's a sign of insecurity. You think somebody else is getting some sort of unfair advantage? Fair enough, change trade and gain the advantage for yourself.
Many will exit with highly rated skills - 'being able to make a (sensible) decision quickly, without a committee' for example, 'willing to accept responsibility' is another.
Dave
(PVR exit class of 2000!)