Des Brown - Armed Forces Covenant

[Max Shutterspeed]

The reality:

It really is the little things
That mean the most of all...
The "we’ll look after the boys as best we can" things
That may seem very small
The "you’ll feel valued for what you do” things
That make your cares much lighter,
The "there can be some F for Fun" things
That make your outlook brighter...

The "never mind the trouble" things,
The "yes, I understand,"
The interest and encouragement
In everything you've planned
It really is the little things,
The friendly word or smile,
That add such happiness to military life
And make it not seem such a pile.

Chin up, Wotta.

Might not mean much, but everyone I can think of in civvie is behind you, though it might not seem like it....

regarding Brown / UK future / solution...

Apart from a revolution and leaving the Eu (Norway seems to be doing just fine), New Zealand is looking good right now....

Max

[VinRouge]

Yep and unlike us, they are in a budgetary surplus, meaning the global recession thats about to hit will have a far less of an effect... Beautiful place, wonderful people. If it wasnt for family, I would be over there like a flash!

Interested to see though that as a pilot with a degree, I didnt have enough points to emmigrate automatically. My OH did though!

She was rather smug about that

[pr00ne]

VinRouge,

Sod off there and do us all a favour then!

You can take your self fulfilling recession nonsense with you, they'd like that!

[VinRouge]

Proone, you must be gutted now that your Scottish Dark overlord is increasingly looking like the Last Labour PM for probably the next 50 years!

[Brakes...beer]

Where is this Military Covenant set out anyway? I never heard of it when I was in. Wasn't it some concept dreamt up by Blair trying to spin his way out of underfunding the Armed Forces?

VinRouge,

Every generation has to learn the folly of voting Labour; then they vote Tory for the rest of their lives. We'll be here again in the 2030s.

[BEagle]

Having seen the part-time SoS for Jockistan mumbling robotically on TV following NuLabor's latest arse-kicking at the hands of the SNP, I can't honestly see this abysmal government lasting much longer.....

Thankfully.

[Chicken Leg]

Beagle

I've found myself agreeing with less and less of what you post on here recently, but on this one, I sooooooooooooo hope you're right!



Afterthought!
Actually, let's keep the clown for a little while yet; he's the best weapon the Tories have. You can bet that Cameron doesn't want him replaced before the next election in 2010. They used to say that Thatcher was very lucky with her opponents (they were generally incompentant): Callaghan, Foot, Scargill and that ginger windbag. Mabe big Dave is enjoying the same luck?

[pr00ne]

VinRouge,

Gutted? Not at all my friend. This Govt has come to the end of it's time. Rank incompetence, a startling lack of anyone with any real panazz and a total lack of 'big ideas' will condemm them to the fate that they deserve at the next General election.

As there is absolutely NO difference between Labour and the David (Tony Blair) Cameron Tory party I only hope that a change has SOME effect but I am not holding my breath.............................

Not entirely sure about 50 years though. Remember how bad things got after 18 years?

[Chicken Leg]

pr00ne

Not entirely sure about 50 yers though. Remember how bad things got after 18 years?

You're still doing it! Do you really thing that the Tory Government after 18 years was worse than this rabble after 11?

I don't understand your continued loyalty to this lot. They won three consecutive elections because they out toried the Tory's. In other words, Blair was a Tory in disguise! You accuse Big Dave of being a Blair clone, when it would have been more accurate to describe Blair as a clone of Cameron. At least he admits to being a Conservative.

Now that Blair has gone, we can see Noo Labour reverting to Old Labour and look at the mess it's caused.

Message to pr00ne: It's a filthy world out there and socialism doesn't work. Nobody owes anybody else a living and the sooner we can resign socialism to the history books as a romantic idea that just doesn't work in reality, the better.

[pr00ne]

Chicken Leg,

What? Socialism? Since WHEN have we had a socialist Government in this country? Not a trace of one since 1997 for starters!

I have NO loyalty to this "lot" I can assure you but yes, I DO think that it was worse after 18 yrs of Tory misrule, corruption and ruination of society than the past 11 years of incompetence, cronyism, spin and 'Govt' by advisor.

As for your message to pr00ne, yep as an international Barrister working mainly in London and New York I think I have a pretty good idea of the nature of the world. Socialism was consigned to the history books by James Callaghan in 1976 and has not been seen in the UK since.

[NP20]

Power to the People!

I agree with Proone on this one. Being a child of the 'I'm alright Jack' Thatcher era, where there was no such thing as society and greed was good, I believe that the cuts in education, health and social welfare spending during this time, along with the race to the bottom in cutting tax rates so that the rich could get richer, has had a substantial role to play in the proliferation of feral youth running amock. Whole swathes of the UK were devastated by the policies of the Tories, while they sold off the family silver.

The last Tory Govt were worse than this current lot, and while no political party are whiter than white when it comes to courting donors and dishing out honours, who was the clown that thought that Jeffrey Archer deserved a peerage? The current score between the current labour and the previous Tory ministers being sent to jail is Tory 2 - Labour 0 (as yet anyway).

Vin Rouge - do you honestly think that we wouldn't be fighting wars on 2 fronts had the Tories been in power in 2001? Do you really think that they wouldn't, rightly or wrongly, have been first in the queue to support the US? And as for Liam Fox 'quite liking us', FFS he is a opposition politician, who can promise us all sorts so long as he doesn't have to deliver.

I'm not too sure what the definition of socialism is, but if it means paying higher taxes to provide sound national health, education and social welfare systems as in Scandinavian countries, then count me in. They also seem to do quite well in exporting manufactured goods (Nokia, Volvo, Saab, Erikkson etc).

Anyway, I'm off to polish my rose tinted specs (the ones with Trotsky frames of course).

[TheInquisitor]

What she actually said was along the lines of "WE are society", ie a response to all those blaming 'society' for all their own personal failings in life - in other words, "Get out there and take responsibility for your own actions and destiny". Wise words indeed.

Whilst we're on the subject of Feral youth, it was NOT Conservative policies that that caused this phenomenon. Rather, it was (and still is) the constant bleating of 'progressive' thinkers (almost exclusively on the Left) gradually eroding both the will and the rights of parents to discipline their children. Conservative policies gave those working-class kid who wanted, and were able, the chance to make a go of it. The 'assisted places' scheme for private education did more for bright, but poor kids than any policy instigated by this shower. The Conservatives also introduced the right-to-buy, giving the working classes a stake in where they live by allowing them to buy their council houses and free themselves from state dependence. The Tories have, in fact, done MORE to lift people out of poverty than any Labour government ever has. And let's face it, why the hell WOULD Labour allow people to break free from state dependence and find wealth? Their core vote relies on having the working classes depend on them!

SO why all the complaints? Ah right, both those schemes, like most Conservative policies, relied on people getting off their arses and earning their crust, rather than waiting in the dole queue with the begging bowl out. What, force the working classes to....WORK? Truly outrageous!

As for:

Whole swathes of the UK were devastated by the policies of the Tories, while they sold off the family silver.

Say again, over? What family silver? Perhaps you are referring to the vast, monolithic (and eternally loss-making) national industries, who for decades had been in the grip of union power, forced to hire 3 men to do 1 man's work, and all heavily subsidised by the taxpayer. Well guess what, the taxpayer's pocket is not bottomless, and with inefficient and uncompetitive nationalised industries, the nation's wealth as a whole will always suffer - and it did. Eventually the money redistributed by Labour to their heartlands to buy votes started to dry up - and THAT is where everybody's jobs went, jobs that should not have existed in the first place.

Instead of getting off their backsides and doing something about it, the working classes did what they had been trained to do by Labour and the unions for decades - go striking and begging, believing that they had an inaliable right for the state to provide them with a living, a situation which put the final nail in the coffin for our former big industries.

Thatcher, on the other hand, created a situation whereby those that were both able and willing, could make money for themselves (and, oddly enough, feed it back into the economy - there's nothing wealth people like more than spending their hard-earned money). As a direct result, we went from being the 'sick man of Europe' to the world's 4th largest economy.

Don't believe the 'old' left stories about Thatcher 'devastating huge swathes of the UK' - that kind of spin is straight out of the handbook of the Militant Tendency. Alot of these places were well and truly in the toilet LONG before Thatcher took office. I should know, I grew up in one, and still consider myself to be 'working class' to this day - except my emphasis is on the 'working', not the 'class', and I do not believe in any way that the state, or anyone else for that matter, owes me a living. When, and only when, the final vestiges of Trotskyism and failed socialist policies are eradicated from British politics, will we see a better future (for those who are willing to work for it!)

[NP20]

Sorry, but this is way off thred...

TI,

I have no problem with your assertion that people have to get off their backsides and work, indeed my edited note said as much. However, I do believe that there should be a safety net for those in society who do not have the ability to provide for themselves, i.e. the sick and the old. I also believe that the highest education standards should be available to all children, not just those lucky enough to be granted an 'assisted place' scheme. Therefore, provide decent funding to schools, not starve them of it, as was the case in the 80s with the 'rolling back' of the state; the same applies to NHS funding. Labour governments have of course made decisions that were detrimental to the working class, arguably the attempted abolition of the grammar school system and the introduction of comprehensive schools (though the intention was to provide a higher level of education to all). But they also introduced the Open University.

Whilst we're on the subject of Feral youth, it was NOT Conservative policies that that caused this phenomenon. Rather, it was (and still is) the constant bleating of 'progressive' thinkers (almost exclusively on the Left) gradually eroding both the will and the rights of parents to discipline their children.

I'm afraid that this is a matter of opinion and I have to disagree with you here. I’m not sure what you mean by ‘…eroding the will and the rights of parents to discipline their children’, but laws stopping the violent abuse of a child surely have to be a good thing. I’m sorry, but there is more to it than that and the neglect of large swathes of society is in my opinion more of a contributory factor. What else are these 'progressive thinkers' responsible for? Safe working conditions in factories? Equality of opportunity? The widespread wearing of Birkenstock sandals?

The nationalised industries were in need of attention, and certain union leaders had forgotten who they were representing, putting their egos before the members who ultimately paid their wages. But I believe that the wholesale selling off of all of these industries, which did help fund tax cuts (as did selling all the MQs), was the wrong course of action. Giving the 'workers' (& I realize that I'm asking for trouble using that word) a stake in the profitability of their companies would have been a better way of improving productivity (a good example being Tower Colliery). And by workers, I don't just mean management buyout as in First Great Western, who are neither First nor Great.

I’m not too clear on definitions of the different political traditions of thought so I’m not sure what these final vestiges of Trotksyism are that we need to get rid of before Britain can become Great once more? The dismantling of the welfare state, wholesale privatization of the NHS, so it becomes more in line with the US model? Hand these over to the market? Capitalism has arguably been responsible for the huge leaps and bounds that mankind has made over the last couple of centuries, but the State does have a role to play to ensure that those at the bottom are provided for and given an opportunity to progress. Left to its own devices capitalism can cause havoc, such as with the current credit crisis in the US. However, as I said in my earlier post the Scandinavians seem to have struck a good compromise.

Personally I’m glad we have a free at the point of entry health service, and think that a little redistribution of wealth to provide the highest possible standards of education to all benefits all; better that than a society where the working class go without. BTW it wasn’t the Tory party who encouraged the education of the working classes, or who set up the NHS. I know I wear rose tinted specs, but I firmly believe that the way to a better future does not lay with an individualistic society, and say again that those that can work, should be made to work.

Alot of these places were well and truly in the toilet LONG before Thatcher took office. I should know, I grew up in one, and still consider myself to be 'working class' to this day

If we're not careful, this could turn into a Pythonesque 'I'm more working class than you' sketch. Though just for the record, we had an outside toilet when I were a lad...

[BEagle]

Though just for the record, we had an outside toilet when I were a lad...

So did we. It was called a swimming pool.

Nationalised industries were legendary for incompetence and layers of worthless management. The only error of Thatcher's concept was that transfer to private ownership did not include a mandatory requirement to reinvest in the industry. Thus shareholders pocketed the profits and let the infrastructure decay - just look at the railway system, for example....

[SirPercyWare-Armitag]

Apart from the fact that this is the most hard-left government that this country has ever had.
The biggest trick New Labour played and won, was to hide hard left policies behind a centralist veneer, exemplified by Blair and Campbell's PR campaign.

High taxes, break-up of the UK, high borrowing, high spending, increased bureaucracy, restrictions on civil liberties, the planned breakup of England into regional assemblies, Human Rights acts, the victimisation of Middle England - all hallmarks of the hard left.

The Tories may have cut defence spending but the fundamental difference is that the Tories didn't increase commitments.

[Riskman]

To whoever wheeled out the old chestnut about Labour introducing the OU; that was the one thing, in the last 40 years, that they ever did that was good. Now go to http://www.open.ac.uk and read the report on HE funding.

Labour giveth and Labour taketh away.....

[NURSE]

I love this chestnut of the privatisation of the NHS being a conservitive thing. Take a little look at some of the new NHS treatment centres and who actually runs them alot are private companines!!
The NHS could actually do with some buissness thinking to remove the layers of useless beauracrats. And the money saved could actually be invested in healthcare. Instead whet do we hear more rights for patients and of course no balancing responsibilities.
The NHS today is a very far cry from what was first envisaged as this country needs to have a serious debate on what should/shouldn't be provided on the NHS.
As to the military/civilian covenant this country needs now to start holding its end of the bargin woth Proper facilities for service men/women/famalies fast tracking through NHS and where possible Military facilities provided for care and after care.

[VinRouge]

Correct. Together with wanton waste in the education sector. I went to a school that had paint peeling off the walls, taught in portakabins with oldschool blackboards, yet everyone in our class got at least 8 GCSEs.

Why oh why did Labour insist on blowing all the cash on new "centres for excellence"? why not increase salaries for those working at the coal face, increase teacher numbers to get class sizes down.

As for facile comments on protecting children from abuse, I am sorry, I went to a school that had corporal punishment, and for those on the receiving end, it was the best thing for them. No backchat and certainly no control issues. The problem I have with socialists is it always supports the supposed underdog. Well, why should one little chav disrupt the education of the whole class just because he came from a bad home and is an attention seeking little get?

As for selling the countries silver, Brown went one better, selling off our gold at a historic low. What concerns me is the enormous expansion of debt that has to be repaid. What did we get in return? A feelgood factor for 11 years that is certainly going to take a lot longer to repay. State debt, including the NR fiasco and PFI stands around 45% GDP. Thats the worst in the western world, together with our personal debt. Its all going to get very messy unfortunately thanks to the ineptness of Brown, Blair and his cronies. NP20 you comment on the credit crisis. We are going to be worse hit in the long run thanks to Labour policies than the Americans. Our Per-capita debt is worse. Not something to be proud of in a credit crunch.

NP20, in this day and age, there is NO excuse to be unemployed, the law protects all individuals, whether aged, disabled or bone idle to equality and discrimination protection at work. Yet Labour still holds the same numner of unemployed on the handouts register as they did when they came to power. They just shifted them from the unemployment list to the incapacity benefits list. People should not have the choice. either work, or dont get money. If you are lazy, thats not middle britains problem, its your problem. The money saved should be given to the lowest paid in income tax breaks or to up the lower threshold. They shouldnt have to support the idle either, especialy as they are the closest to the breadline. Benefits to school leavers that have never paid a penny in NI or done a days work should be paid in food stamps and vouchers for clothing at ASDA/Primark. I am sick of seeing chavs pile out of DSS cigarette hanging out of mouth in the latest designer clobber.

Edit:

I didnt think Browns government could stoop any lower, then I read this:

Nimrod families may get 'close to £1m' compensation - Telegraph

However, the payout comes with a condition preventing the families from seeking any further legal redress.

Disgraceful.

[NP20]

Okay, this is getting boring now, but I have said 3 times (2 quoted, 1 alluded to) that those that can work should work - see below:

I have no problem with your assertion that people have to get off their backsides and work, indeed my edited note said as much.

and say again that those that can work, should be made to work.

What do you want from me, 100 lines that read 'those that can work, should work'?

However, your assertion that there is no excuse to be out of work is just too sweeping, almost Littlejohn like, as is your line on corporal punishment. There are those out there who cannot work, such as those that are too ill. Those with mental illness for example, dumped on the street during our Dear Maggie's Care in the Community programme; or are they just LMF? Lets just be thankful that we are well enough to work, and hope that we never find ourselves in that position.

Of course this Government has made bad decisions, and the treatment of injured/deceased servicemen, and their families has at time been a disgrace, but I don't believe that things would have been different had we been under a Tory administration, who would have taken us to both Afghanistan and Iraq. That said I still maintain that they are not as bad as the last lot. That there has been waste in the public sector is lamentable, but the commitment to public services is certainly higher than during the Tory years, and the fact is there are more people in work, and more children above the poverty line than under the Tories. And what is wrong with looking out for the underdog? Should we just hand over to big business so that they can screw the rest of us?

The US has huge financial problems, and I am certainly no economist, but a quick trip around Google tells me that US public debt currently stands at about 60% and the UK 43% (source - CIA World Factbook 2007) and the US has the dubious honour of being number 1 in the table of nations with the biggest current account deficit (Source - www.economist.com). I'm not sure what this tells us, especially as the US has a greater ability to pull itself out of trouble than we do, but I just thought that I would also like to throw some figures around. That said 88.2% of statistics are made up on the spot (Source -Vic Reeves), and that 'He (VR) uses statistics as a drunken man uses lampposts - for support rather than for illumination'. ~Andrew Lang

I am sick of seeing chavs pile out of DSS cigarette hanging out of mouth in the latest designer clobber.

That made me laugh. Spend much time outside the DSS do you? (Come on, give us a smile...)

Anyway, we'll have to agree to disagree (that is 'me' with the majority of 'you'), so that you can get back to reading the Daily Mail.

This is my last on this subject - and that is a promise.

PS. I was right about the decent into the Pythonesque:

I went to a school that had paint peeling off the walls, taught in portakabins with oldschool blackboards,

[Blunderbuss]

In joining this forum, I really wasn't expecting to find Labour apologists among the posters.