ASTOR
Hmm... Promised FL 510 and M0.9?
Whereas it's now FL400 and M0.75 according to the RAF website. And no 'dozen fat businessmen and their golf clubs' - just 1 mission controller and 2 image analysts.
It is supposed to be capable of 9 hour mission times. I'll bet the poor sods in the back would really look forward to an AAR capability to extend that loiter time....
Whereas it's now FL400 and M0.75 according to the RAF website. And no 'dozen fat businessmen and their golf clubs' - just 1 mission controller and 2 image analysts.
It is supposed to be capable of 9 hour mission times. I'll bet the poor sods in the back would really look forward to an AAR capability to extend that loiter time....
Two comments...
WEBF - reference the newspaper article. How do you know the SeaKings refered to were 'baggers', or are there no non SAR/Junglie SeaKings left in the FAA inventory?
Secondly, reference weight on ASTOR (and since this is a RUMOUR network) I heard from someone who flys out of Waddo (but not on ASTOR) that when it came to the 'privacy' element of the toilet, the curtain vs door discussion that ensued was all about the weight saving a curtain offered.......
WEBF - reference the newspaper article. How do you know the SeaKings refered to were 'baggers', or are there no non SAR/Junglie SeaKings left in the FAA inventory?
Secondly, reference weight on ASTOR (and since this is a RUMOUR network) I heard from someone who flys out of Waddo (but not on ASTOR) that when it came to the 'privacy' element of the toilet, the curtain vs door discussion that ensued was all about the weight saving a curtain offered.......
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Interesting that this thread is full of not only the usual people who spout uninformed ****e on many subjects, but also some who, whilst I usually disagree with their opinions on things, I would normally consider to be well informed but are equally spouting ****e.
FL400
FL400
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FL400, that's what RAF - Sentinel R1 says on the tin..
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Ooops, Tourist may have a point about FL400 being sh1te.
Read what the same site says about the max altitude of the Future Tanker
RAF - Future Strategic Tanker Aircraft
Read what the same site says about the max altitude of the Future Tanker
RAF - Future Strategic Tanker Aircraft
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Beagle.
Not my finest effort as far as sentence construction I grant you.
Taxi.
You make my point perfectly. If your knowledge on the subject is garnererd from the MOD websites, you really have no knowledge to base your arguments on.
Incidentally, I'm no radar geek, but surely discussing some of this stuff is a bit beadwindow?
Not my finest effort as far as sentence construction I grant you.
Taxi.
You make my point perfectly. If your knowledge on the subject is garnererd from the MOD websites, you really have no knowledge to base your arguments on.
Incidentally, I'm no radar geek, but surely discussing some of this stuff is a bit beadwindow?
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Bow Inn,
We must have flown together! I too remember those visits, and many of the individuals involved with early ASTOR studies were indeed from the wrong background. Crusty old Royal Artillery majors and too many Canberra men and some of their decisions were subsequently proved to be poor.
Meanwhile, I would suggest that the RAF website is absolutely the last place you would want to quote performance figures from unless you're an Air Cadet!
In short, after a troubled gestation, ASTOR is looking very good!
Regards,
MM
We must have flown together! I too remember those visits, and many of the individuals involved with early ASTOR studies were indeed from the wrong background. Crusty old Royal Artillery majors and too many Canberra men and some of their decisions were subsequently proved to be poor.
Meanwhile, I would suggest that the RAF website is absolutely the last place you would want to quote performance figures from unless you're an Air Cadet!
In short, after a troubled gestation, ASTOR is looking very good!
Regards,
MM
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Hello Magic Mushroom
Hello MM,
Many hours in endless circles I'm sure with the odd glass of red at the end of the day. Straight lines for me these days I'm afraid and it just isn't the same. Waypoints to check and ATC to talk to. Don't get me started.
I'm sure the aircraft will come right in the end and I admit to having no knowledge of the ASTOR machine as it is today. Just remember those early days talking with the people entrusted with such a massive project. I felt they were very much out of their depth. Still a nice aeroplane though.
Has the RAF kept the Bombardier procedures or have they tried to turn it into a Nimrod or E3D? The bun fighting in the early years of AWACS was quite something. I remember a Boeing rep politely explaining how out of all the 707's they had ever sold (approx 1,010), we were the only customer who insisted on powering down the whole electrical system before a refuel. He was told that "that's how we did it on the Shack" and that's the way it was going to be. Or the man from CFM, confused by the way we would talk to the engines to get them started.
"Starting No.3....Valve open... positive rotation.... 25%...fuel...ignition.....50%....valve closed......good start......." Just get on with it!!
Mr. DG once told me that when he got into his car in the morning, he didn't need such a checklist. Just turned the key and drove off. And he doesn't remember accidentally driving through the garage door by mistake. "Garage Door...Check OPEN". Food for thought. Is it me, or am I starting to ramble?
Anyway........ Navigators saying that FE's shouldn't read checklists etc. What a great deal of willy waving and for what? Happy days though and looking back, did it really matter? Are they still recruiting?
Best wishes to you MM and I'm sure we'll meet again soon.
BI
Many hours in endless circles I'm sure with the odd glass of red at the end of the day. Straight lines for me these days I'm afraid and it just isn't the same. Waypoints to check and ATC to talk to. Don't get me started.
I'm sure the aircraft will come right in the end and I admit to having no knowledge of the ASTOR machine as it is today. Just remember those early days talking with the people entrusted with such a massive project. I felt they were very much out of their depth. Still a nice aeroplane though.
Has the RAF kept the Bombardier procedures or have they tried to turn it into a Nimrod or E3D? The bun fighting in the early years of AWACS was quite something. I remember a Boeing rep politely explaining how out of all the 707's they had ever sold (approx 1,010), we were the only customer who insisted on powering down the whole electrical system before a refuel. He was told that "that's how we did it on the Shack" and that's the way it was going to be. Or the man from CFM, confused by the way we would talk to the engines to get them started.
"Starting No.3....Valve open... positive rotation.... 25%...fuel...ignition.....50%....valve closed......good start......." Just get on with it!!
Mr. DG once told me that when he got into his car in the morning, he didn't need such a checklist. Just turned the key and drove off. And he doesn't remember accidentally driving through the garage door by mistake. "Garage Door...Check OPEN". Food for thought. Is it me, or am I starting to ramble?
Anyway........ Navigators saying that FE's shouldn't read checklists etc. What a great deal of willy waving and for what? Happy days though and looking back, did it really matter? Are they still recruiting?
Best wishes to you MM and I'm sure we'll meet again soon.
BI
Last edited by Bow Inn; 14th Jul 2008 at 05:13.
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Magic Mushroom said,
Sorry...that's only partially correct. The useful range of a radar is limited by a number of things, RF horizon being only one. Indeed if you get your calculator out you will see the additional horizon between say FL350 and something quite a bit higher is not that much. What the extra altitude gives you is a more significant grazing angle. Now that is important! 
Placing it on an aircraft such as the GX ensures it has a much improved operating ceiling in comparison to an airliner sized asset. That in itself offers advantages in radar/comms horizon and potentially stand off range.
Biggus
Sorry for the delay in replying. I'm just lazy. The article talked about Sea Kings from RFA Argus. Argus is being used as a base for the ASACS guys.
The point I was making was that their contribution, like most of the naval contribution to current operations, seldom makes headlines.
Sorry for the delay in replying. I'm just lazy. The article talked about Sea Kings from RFA Argus. Argus is being used as a base for the ASACS guys.
The point I was making was that their contribution, like most of the naval contribution to current operations, seldom makes headlines.
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I heard the boys on the ASTOR OES talking about it in the same terms as the Nimrod AEW. I heard it said that they cut the length of the cockpit escape rope to save weight and that they were considering imposing a crew upper weight limit, however that was a couple of years ago. Like the MRA4 it'll probably get canned in the spending review, if they ever finish the review.
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SKASaC and the Torpy-do
My colleagues and I must advise MagicM that should he mention on the higher floors of the MoD that the SKASaC really could be seen as a complimentary capability to ASTOR: available now, excellent and un-sung track record, fighter controllers etc, his boss - or boss's boss - might be subject to the latest and devastating ISTAR weapon in the light blue armoury. It can be launched through a telephone and has a reaction time faster than any device the UK can afford.
So never mind ASTOR as a bird with a triple chin, a neanderthal forehead, its need for compact aircrew (are gurkhas light enough?) and a fascinating disregard for communicating with the ground, it is bound to succeed. It has the Torpy-do.
So never mind ASTOR as a bird with a triple chin, a neanderthal forehead, its need for compact aircrew (are gurkhas light enough?) and a fascinating disregard for communicating with the ground, it is bound to succeed. It has the Torpy-do.
Champagne anyone...?
My colleagues and I must advise MagicM that should he mention on the higher floors of the MoD that the SKASaC really could be seen as a complimentary capability to ASTOR: available now, excellent and un-sung track record, fighter controllers etc, his boss - or boss's boss - might be subject to the latest and devastating ISTAR weapon in the light blue armoury. It can be launched through a telephone and has a reaction time faster than any device the UK can afford.
So never mind ASTOR as a bird with a triple chin, a neanderthal forehead, its need for compact aircrew (are gurkhas light enough?) and a fascinating disregard for communicating with the ground, it is bound to succeed. It has the Torpy-do.
So never mind ASTOR as a bird with a triple chin, a neanderthal forehead, its need for compact aircrew (are gurkhas light enough?) and a fascinating disregard for communicating with the ground, it is bound to succeed. It has the Torpy-do.
Go on, someone translate this train-of-thought babble....
Ok....
I think it runs something like this:
"Should MM mention that the SK7 is a complementary capability to those soon(ish) to be offered by ASTOR, the Chief of the Air Staff will be terribly displeased with him.
This is because CAS has a bit of a 'sad' towards the RN, having single-handedly been responsible for the demise of Heron flight, and this suggests that he will defend ASTOR, a completely incapable airframe, over the much superior SK7"
Which doesn't quite accord with what CAS had to say about SK7 when I last heard him mention it, but that was some months ago.
I think it runs something like this:
"Should MM mention that the SK7 is a complementary capability to those soon(ish) to be offered by ASTOR, the Chief of the Air Staff will be terribly displeased with him.
This is because CAS has a bit of a 'sad' towards the RN, having single-handedly been responsible for the demise of Heron flight, and this suggests that he will defend ASTOR, a completely incapable airframe, over the much superior SK7"
Which doesn't quite accord with what CAS had to say about SK7 when I last heard him mention it, but that was some months ago.
