RAAF Flight Screening Programme
Join Date: Mar 2018
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So the round of offers for OSB have started to go out. I just received one for the 14th-18th week in May. It appears that we only pick one day so perhaps the OSB is shorter now? Does anyone have any information on this?
Thanks
Thanks
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Washington DC
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Hi guys,
Long term lurker, not sure if it's appropriate to post here. 25, work in management consulting in the US.
I have a undergraduate degree in Economics/Finance.
I'm an Australian Citizen, who moved over after undergraduate studies to Washington DC for work. I think ever since I was 16 I always had a desire to pursue a career in the RAAF however I wasn't confident I would be successful and hence went with the safe option. However after 1-2 years of work I still look back and keep thinking what-if. Job is great in terms of pay/benefits but I keep thinking nearly every weekend or fortnight I should've just gone for broke when I was younger and apply. Is it too late now? I have attempted a few times to apply but have withdrawn my application beforehand.
I'm not sure what this says about my personality of if i'd even be a good fit. Or am I even too old, I've also noticed my vision which use to be better than 20-20 at 18 has now started to suffer a bit at long distance, from doing too much excel modelling and powerpoint in front of a computer.
Long term lurker, not sure if it's appropriate to post here. 25, work in management consulting in the US.
I have a undergraduate degree in Economics/Finance.
I'm an Australian Citizen, who moved over after undergraduate studies to Washington DC for work. I think ever since I was 16 I always had a desire to pursue a career in the RAAF however I wasn't confident I would be successful and hence went with the safe option. However after 1-2 years of work I still look back and keep thinking what-if. Job is great in terms of pay/benefits but I keep thinking nearly every weekend or fortnight I should've just gone for broke when I was younger and apply. Is it too late now? I have attempted a few times to apply but have withdrawn my application beforehand.
I'm not sure what this says about my personality of if i'd even be a good fit. Or am I even too old, I've also noticed my vision which use to be better than 20-20 at 18 has now started to suffer a bit at long distance, from doing too much excel modelling and powerpoint in front of a computer.
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Australia
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Hi all,
Just wondering what the general waiting time is between finishing your assessment day and being offered a spot at ASP? I assume it’s not too much of a wait as the program is only two days now..?
Regards.
Just wondering what the general waiting time is between finishing your assessment day and being offered a spot at ASP? I assume it’s not too much of a wait as the program is only two days now..?
Regards.
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Perth
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Jaxom and whoever else wants to read,
I am also a long time lurker, first time poster, and let me start by saying, yes Jaxom, you posting here is appropriate!
I started to become motivated to make comment recently seeing some pretty bad advise getting thrown around by somebody who seems to ‘know it all’, and not take the hint from people in the actual know when it is time to take the humble and helpful road, vice the big nothing road. But ultimately I couldn’t be bothered, as the system has a way of sorting those people out eventually. However your post has inspired me to comment after a long time of watching from the back of the bus.
Your story sounds very similar to mine if I went back 10+ years, but skip forward and I have had and am still having a very successful career as a RAAF pilot.
I was the same age as you are now when I joined, I even read this thread back then too! And like you I was unsure as to whether I was good enough or who they wanted. I was scared of failure, as I tried to get in when I was 17 at school and failed all of the pilot aptitude testing miserably! I had the psychologist tell me to my face I was not smart enough and should consider another career.... I was destroyed, and thought it would never happen and I was too scared to go back for the longest time. But like you I kept coming back to wanting to do it, but I just couldn’t muster up the courage to apply.... till one day I just took the leap and the rest is history.
So how do you ask did I turn it around? Simple.... I worked my arse off!
17 year old me had read a couple of recruiting pamphlets, and I knew I always wanted to do it, and because I wanted it so bad I deserved it right? Wrong. So I just turned up, completely unprepared, and the result unsurprisingly was a big fat fail.
Skip to 25 year old me, who didn’t want a repeat of my experience at 17, because to be quite honest at the time it was life shattering, So I decided to prepare as best I could. I did all sorts of things, from Prep courses for maths, aptitude testing courses, visited several bases, spoke to actual pilots, lived and breathed it and worked my butt off.
So a bit of advice regarding some of the stuff I have read on here lately....
Now we could sit here and debate whether ASP is harder or easier than FSP, what traits they are testing for, what scores mean what and etc etc.....
But the reality is that none of that is useful to any of you, and the so called info regarding ASP scores etc you have all read in this thread is at best guesswork, and again not useful to you.
What is relevant to all of you is that ASP exists, there is nothing you can do about that, and you need to pass it to progress.
Sharing the gouge(good info) is one of the first lessons we teach you at the schools, and that’s what this thread should be about. I have seen comments from people not willing to divulge any gouge as to what is involved in the testing, telling you you can’t prepare you either have it or you don’t... make no mistake about it, this person is wrong and what we call a gouge hoarder, out there for himself, not to help out. That’s not how we operate in the aircrew world.
I am a QFI at one of the schools at the moment, and I have seen all kinds come through over the last few years, and I have seen all kinds not make it as well.
I can tell you that myself and all of my aircrew brethren would rather train a weaker candidate, with a good attitude that has to work their ass off to keep up, than the natural with a superior attitude who is not a team player. The later puts a bad taste in our mouths, and we will often weed them out, because frankly they don’t belong in the RAAF.
So why do I say all of this.... I say it for those of you out there that read some of the overly cocky comments on here from some of the recruiting warriors amongst you (you have all met one I am sure) and think maybe I am not as good as that guy/girl. Make no mistake, the false bravado is designed to put off the competition, and usually their puffed up story of how well they are doing is greatly exaggerated.
Now I am not going to lie, I know next to nothing about ASP and I cannot help you with that, that’s what sharing the gouge and all you lot are for! But I do know what product we are looking for, and I know who makes it through training as I see them and teach them everyday. Some of my proudest moments instructing have been seeing some of my struggling students get wings at the end from sheer will, determination and grit. Nobody, and I mean nobody gets through Pilots course by themselves.
So my advice would be this....
Be humble and help each other.
Share the gouge, give yourselves the best chance to find a way to prepare for the testing.
Ignore the naysayers, there is always a way to prepare for everything, you just need to find it!
Whilst you are in competition for a spot, run your own race, don’t worry about anybody else and how they may be doing. Remember other people need to pass too for you to have course mates! Start the teamwork now.
Finally, anonymous forums are one thing, but go and call a base and ask to be put through to a squadron, and ask to speak to a pilot. I have been on the other end of the line many times over the years and it always impresses. Get the advice from the horses mouth, rather than the recruiting warriors.
Finally, Good luck to everybody, and to Jaxon, you owe it to yourself to have a shot mate, don’t die wondering!
SHT
I am also a long time lurker, first time poster, and let me start by saying, yes Jaxom, you posting here is appropriate!
I started to become motivated to make comment recently seeing some pretty bad advise getting thrown around by somebody who seems to ‘know it all’, and not take the hint from people in the actual know when it is time to take the humble and helpful road, vice the big nothing road. But ultimately I couldn’t be bothered, as the system has a way of sorting those people out eventually. However your post has inspired me to comment after a long time of watching from the back of the bus.
Your story sounds very similar to mine if I went back 10+ years, but skip forward and I have had and am still having a very successful career as a RAAF pilot.
I was the same age as you are now when I joined, I even read this thread back then too! And like you I was unsure as to whether I was good enough or who they wanted. I was scared of failure, as I tried to get in when I was 17 at school and failed all of the pilot aptitude testing miserably! I had the psychologist tell me to my face I was not smart enough and should consider another career.... I was destroyed, and thought it would never happen and I was too scared to go back for the longest time. But like you I kept coming back to wanting to do it, but I just couldn’t muster up the courage to apply.... till one day I just took the leap and the rest is history.
So how do you ask did I turn it around? Simple.... I worked my arse off!
17 year old me had read a couple of recruiting pamphlets, and I knew I always wanted to do it, and because I wanted it so bad I deserved it right? Wrong. So I just turned up, completely unprepared, and the result unsurprisingly was a big fat fail.
Skip to 25 year old me, who didn’t want a repeat of my experience at 17, because to be quite honest at the time it was life shattering, So I decided to prepare as best I could. I did all sorts of things, from Prep courses for maths, aptitude testing courses, visited several bases, spoke to actual pilots, lived and breathed it and worked my butt off.
So a bit of advice regarding some of the stuff I have read on here lately....
Now we could sit here and debate whether ASP is harder or easier than FSP, what traits they are testing for, what scores mean what and etc etc.....
But the reality is that none of that is useful to any of you, and the so called info regarding ASP scores etc you have all read in this thread is at best guesswork, and again not useful to you.
What is relevant to all of you is that ASP exists, there is nothing you can do about that, and you need to pass it to progress.
Sharing the gouge(good info) is one of the first lessons we teach you at the schools, and that’s what this thread should be about. I have seen comments from people not willing to divulge any gouge as to what is involved in the testing, telling you you can’t prepare you either have it or you don’t... make no mistake about it, this person is wrong and what we call a gouge hoarder, out there for himself, not to help out. That’s not how we operate in the aircrew world.
I am a QFI at one of the schools at the moment, and I have seen all kinds come through over the last few years, and I have seen all kinds not make it as well.
I can tell you that myself and all of my aircrew brethren would rather train a weaker candidate, with a good attitude that has to work their ass off to keep up, than the natural with a superior attitude who is not a team player. The later puts a bad taste in our mouths, and we will often weed them out, because frankly they don’t belong in the RAAF.
So why do I say all of this.... I say it for those of you out there that read some of the overly cocky comments on here from some of the recruiting warriors amongst you (you have all met one I am sure) and think maybe I am not as good as that guy/girl. Make no mistake, the false bravado is designed to put off the competition, and usually their puffed up story of how well they are doing is greatly exaggerated.
Now I am not going to lie, I know next to nothing about ASP and I cannot help you with that, that’s what sharing the gouge and all you lot are for! But I do know what product we are looking for, and I know who makes it through training as I see them and teach them everyday. Some of my proudest moments instructing have been seeing some of my struggling students get wings at the end from sheer will, determination and grit. Nobody, and I mean nobody gets through Pilots course by themselves.
So my advice would be this....
Be humble and help each other.
Share the gouge, give yourselves the best chance to find a way to prepare for the testing.
Ignore the naysayers, there is always a way to prepare for everything, you just need to find it!
Whilst you are in competition for a spot, run your own race, don’t worry about anybody else and how they may be doing. Remember other people need to pass too for you to have course mates! Start the teamwork now.
Finally, anonymous forums are one thing, but go and call a base and ask to be put through to a squadron, and ask to speak to a pilot. I have been on the other end of the line many times over the years and it always impresses. Get the advice from the horses mouth, rather than the recruiting warriors.
Finally, Good luck to everybody, and to Jaxon, you owe it to yourself to have a shot mate, don’t die wondering!
SHT
Join Date: Apr 2018
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Thanks SHT, I actually grew up in Perth! I'll give it a shot calling a few of the bases, if not i have 3 weeks of Holiday (sigh USA) which I could use head back home and do some intense "networking" haha.. Time is short.Would love to have a chat if your free sometime as-well if your cool with that.
Jax
Jax
What a great post SHT. The best info so far on this thread.
Jaxom and whoever else wants to read,
I am also a long time lurker, first time poster, and let me start by saying, yes Jaxom, you posting here is appropriate!
I started to become motivated to make comment recently seeing some pretty bad advise getting thrown around by somebody who seems to ‘know it all’, and not take the hint from people in the actual know when it is time to take the humble and helpful road, vice the big nothing road. But ultimately I couldn’t be bothered, as the system has a way of sorting those people out eventually. However your post has inspired me to comment after a long time of watching from the back of the bus.
Your story sounds very similar to mine if I went back 10+ years, but skip forward and I have had and am still having a very successful career as a RAAF pilot.
I was the same age as you are now when I joined, I even read this thread back then too! And like you I was unsure as to whether I was good enough or who they wanted. I was scared of failure, as I tried to get in when I was 17 at school and failed all of the pilot aptitude testing miserably! I had the psychologist tell me to my face I was not smart enough and should consider another career.... I was destroyed, and thought it would never happen and I was too scared to go back for the longest time. But like you I kept coming back to wanting to do it, but I just couldn’t muster up the courage to apply.... till one day I just took the leap and the rest is history.
So how do you ask did I turn it around? Simple.... I worked my arse off!
17 year old me had read a couple of recruiting pamphlets, and I knew I always wanted to do it, and because I wanted it so bad I deserved it right? Wrong. So I just turned up, completely unprepared, and the result unsurprisingly was a big fat fail.
Skip to 25 year old me, who didn’t want a repeat of my experience at 17, because to be quite honest at the time it was life shattering, So I decided to prepare as best I could. I did all sorts of things, from Prep courses for maths, aptitude testing courses, visited several bases, spoke to actual pilots, lived and breathed it and worked my butt off.
So a bit of advice regarding some of the stuff I have read on here lately....
Now we could sit here and debate whether ASP is harder or easier than FSP, what traits they are testing for, what scores mean what and etc etc.....
But the reality is that none of that is useful to any of you, and the so called info regarding ASP scores etc you have all read in this thread is at best guesswork, and again not useful to you.
What is relevant to all of you is that ASP exists, there is nothing you can do about that, and you need to pass it to progress.
Sharing the gouge(good info) is one of the first lessons we teach you at the schools, and that’s what this thread should be about. I have seen comments from people not willing to divulge any gouge as to what is involved in the testing, telling you you can’t prepare you either have it or you don’t... make no mistake about it, this person is wrong and what we call a gouge hoarder, out there for himself, not to help out. That’s not how we operate in the aircrew world.
I am a QFI at one of the schools at the moment, and I have seen all kinds come through over the last few years, and I have seen all kinds not make it as well.
I can tell you that myself and all of my aircrew brethren would rather train a weaker candidate, with a good attitude that has to work their ass off to keep up, than the natural with a superior attitude who is not a team player. The later puts a bad taste in our mouths, and we will often weed them out, because frankly they don’t belong in the RAAF.
So why do I say all of this.... I say it for those of you out there that read some of the overly cocky comments on here from some of the recruiting warriors amongst you (you have all met one I am sure) and think maybe I am not as good as that guy/girl. Make no mistake, the false bravado is designed to put off the competition, and usually their puffed up story of how well they are doing is greatly exaggerated.
Now I am not going to lie, I know next to nothing about ASP and I cannot help you with that, that’s what sharing the gouge and all you lot are for! But I do know what product we are looking for, and I know who makes it through training as I see them and teach them everyday. Some of my proudest moments instructing have been seeing some of my struggling students get wings at the end from sheer will, determination and grit. Nobody, and I mean nobody gets through Pilots course by themselves.
So my advice would be this....
Be humble and help each other.
Share the gouge, give yourselves the best chance to find a way to prepare for the testing.
Ignore the naysayers, there is always a way to prepare for everything, you just need to find it!
Whilst you are in competition for a spot, run your own race, don’t worry about anybody else and how they may be doing. Remember other people need to pass too for you to have course mates! Start the teamwork now.
Finally, anonymous forums are one thing, but go and call a base and ask to be put through to a squadron, and ask to speak to a pilot. I have been on the other end of the line many times over the years and it always impresses. Get the advice from the horses mouth, rather than the recruiting warriors.
Finally, Good luck to everybody, and to Jaxon, you owe it to yourself to have a shot mate, don’t die wondering!
SHT
I am also a long time lurker, first time poster, and let me start by saying, yes Jaxom, you posting here is appropriate!
I started to become motivated to make comment recently seeing some pretty bad advise getting thrown around by somebody who seems to ‘know it all’, and not take the hint from people in the actual know when it is time to take the humble and helpful road, vice the big nothing road. But ultimately I couldn’t be bothered, as the system has a way of sorting those people out eventually. However your post has inspired me to comment after a long time of watching from the back of the bus.
Your story sounds very similar to mine if I went back 10+ years, but skip forward and I have had and am still having a very successful career as a RAAF pilot.
I was the same age as you are now when I joined, I even read this thread back then too! And like you I was unsure as to whether I was good enough or who they wanted. I was scared of failure, as I tried to get in when I was 17 at school and failed all of the pilot aptitude testing miserably! I had the psychologist tell me to my face I was not smart enough and should consider another career.... I was destroyed, and thought it would never happen and I was too scared to go back for the longest time. But like you I kept coming back to wanting to do it, but I just couldn’t muster up the courage to apply.... till one day I just took the leap and the rest is history.
So how do you ask did I turn it around? Simple.... I worked my arse off!
17 year old me had read a couple of recruiting pamphlets, and I knew I always wanted to do it, and because I wanted it so bad I deserved it right? Wrong. So I just turned up, completely unprepared, and the result unsurprisingly was a big fat fail.
Skip to 25 year old me, who didn’t want a repeat of my experience at 17, because to be quite honest at the time it was life shattering, So I decided to prepare as best I could. I did all sorts of things, from Prep courses for maths, aptitude testing courses, visited several bases, spoke to actual pilots, lived and breathed it and worked my butt off.
So a bit of advice regarding some of the stuff I have read on here lately....
Now we could sit here and debate whether ASP is harder or easier than FSP, what traits they are testing for, what scores mean what and etc etc.....
But the reality is that none of that is useful to any of you, and the so called info regarding ASP scores etc you have all read in this thread is at best guesswork, and again not useful to you.
What is relevant to all of you is that ASP exists, there is nothing you can do about that, and you need to pass it to progress.
Sharing the gouge(good info) is one of the first lessons we teach you at the schools, and that’s what this thread should be about. I have seen comments from people not willing to divulge any gouge as to what is involved in the testing, telling you you can’t prepare you either have it or you don’t... make no mistake about it, this person is wrong and what we call a gouge hoarder, out there for himself, not to help out. That’s not how we operate in the aircrew world.
I am a QFI at one of the schools at the moment, and I have seen all kinds come through over the last few years, and I have seen all kinds not make it as well.
I can tell you that myself and all of my aircrew brethren would rather train a weaker candidate, with a good attitude that has to work their ass off to keep up, than the natural with a superior attitude who is not a team player. The later puts a bad taste in our mouths, and we will often weed them out, because frankly they don’t belong in the RAAF.
So why do I say all of this.... I say it for those of you out there that read some of the overly cocky comments on here from some of the recruiting warriors amongst you (you have all met one I am sure) and think maybe I am not as good as that guy/girl. Make no mistake, the false bravado is designed to put off the competition, and usually their puffed up story of how well they are doing is greatly exaggerated.
Now I am not going to lie, I know next to nothing about ASP and I cannot help you with that, that’s what sharing the gouge and all you lot are for! But I do know what product we are looking for, and I know who makes it through training as I see them and teach them everyday. Some of my proudest moments instructing have been seeing some of my struggling students get wings at the end from sheer will, determination and grit. Nobody, and I mean nobody gets through Pilots course by themselves.
So my advice would be this....
Be humble and help each other.
Share the gouge, give yourselves the best chance to find a way to prepare for the testing.
Ignore the naysayers, there is always a way to prepare for everything, you just need to find it!
Whilst you are in competition for a spot, run your own race, don’t worry about anybody else and how they may be doing. Remember other people need to pass too for you to have course mates! Start the teamwork now.
Finally, anonymous forums are one thing, but go and call a base and ask to be put through to a squadron, and ask to speak to a pilot. I have been on the other end of the line many times over the years and it always impresses. Get the advice from the horses mouth, rather than the recruiting warriors.
Finally, Good luck to everybody, and to Jaxon, you owe it to yourself to have a shot mate, don’t die wondering!
SHT
I would also add: don’t be the guy/gal that says “I wish I prepped/studied more”. Whether that’s at the end of screening/ XFTS/ aircraft type conversion.
You get 1 chance. Much of how it plays out, is in your hands. Make it count.
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In the interest of discussion and because some of that was directed at me I'll bite.
Before you go accusing me of hoarding wood-turning tools let me preface all of this by saying I have already helped numerous people who've messaged me here on pprune, facebook, reddit etc asking anything from ASP preparation tips and maths help to what to wear.
I have a background tutoring and teaching at University. My approach to helping people has always been transactional. That is, I'm more than happy to help, point someone in the right direction and answer questions if they, the student or whoever, has actually made an attempt to help themselves first. I would often get questions which essentially boiled down to "please immediately provide an answer to this overly broad and nuanced problem I have". Those were the people I did not help. If however someone came to me saying; "here's the problem I have, I think these are the issues I need to address, I've identified these avenues as possible solutions, can you help me?" I would be more than happy to jump in and give them everything I had to offer.
I've been getting the same sorts of questions about the ASP. There are those who just want a nudge in the right direction to keep conducting their own research or those who think I should detail all 20 tests, what each contains and decent strategies for approaching all of them. Would you help both of those people?
You don't have to go back very far in this thread at all to see all manner of questions shot down by the very same BFTS/2FTS instructors preaching about teamwork and helping your mates. Instead it was: "Read this thread, do your research, you'll never become an Officer in the RAAF if you can't solve these problems on your own." So, in the same vein, it has been alluded to already that the ASP involves the very same battery of tests that the RAF uses. The term "RAF CBAT" should be all you need to find every possible bit of information about what will be on and how to prepare for the ASP.
Obviously when you are in the RAAF and on pilots course helping your course mates out is the name of the game. This was already the spirit of things on my ASP so you needn't despair for us too much yet. I'm interested to hear where you and others draw the line between helping/supporting and cheating/fairness. People are told not to detail the inner workings of an OSB to other candidates as it undermines the selection process so why doesn't that apply in this case?
As far as what I suggested previously as preparation. I said some of the testing "feels like you either have it or you don't". This seems to be the consensus not just from me but from those who've recently completed the ASP and from the thousands of posts from those who've attempted it in the UK and Canada. On the second night of my ASP I stayed up giving a few candidates from the next course info about all the tests they would be doing the following afternoon and how I approached them. I warned them that it likely wouldn’t help a whole lot and after doing them they agreed that it didn't provide much help outside of a slight confidence boost and an easier night’s sleep. So you can say that it's wrong all you want but to quote one of your ilk from a previous page "you haven’t done it, don’t pretend you know more than the people who have." (sweeping statements fly both ways)
The only perfect preparation for the ASP would be to program your own copy of the tests but doing that you'd risk the postie delivering something addressed to you with a UK MoD letterhead. Even then, those crafty psychologists that be have created tests with very high test-retest reliability so they would be arguing that you can’t prepare at all. If you don't want to take an interest if how testing like this is designed and scored that's fine but there could be a reality that maybe it can't be prepared for as much as you'd like it to.
All that being said and despite how overtly defensive it might read, thank you for your insight, I and others will most certainly take it on board. Hopefully we can continue to discuss it without the hostility that pprune is known for.
Before you go accusing me of hoarding wood-turning tools let me preface all of this by saying I have already helped numerous people who've messaged me here on pprune, facebook, reddit etc asking anything from ASP preparation tips and maths help to what to wear.
I have a background tutoring and teaching at University. My approach to helping people has always been transactional. That is, I'm more than happy to help, point someone in the right direction and answer questions if they, the student or whoever, has actually made an attempt to help themselves first. I would often get questions which essentially boiled down to "please immediately provide an answer to this overly broad and nuanced problem I have". Those were the people I did not help. If however someone came to me saying; "here's the problem I have, I think these are the issues I need to address, I've identified these avenues as possible solutions, can you help me?" I would be more than happy to jump in and give them everything I had to offer.
I've been getting the same sorts of questions about the ASP. There are those who just want a nudge in the right direction to keep conducting their own research or those who think I should detail all 20 tests, what each contains and decent strategies for approaching all of them. Would you help both of those people?
You don't have to go back very far in this thread at all to see all manner of questions shot down by the very same BFTS/2FTS instructors preaching about teamwork and helping your mates. Instead it was: "Read this thread, do your research, you'll never become an Officer in the RAAF if you can't solve these problems on your own." So, in the same vein, it has been alluded to already that the ASP involves the very same battery of tests that the RAF uses. The term "RAF CBAT" should be all you need to find every possible bit of information about what will be on and how to prepare for the ASP.
Obviously when you are in the RAAF and on pilots course helping your course mates out is the name of the game. This was already the spirit of things on my ASP so you needn't despair for us too much yet. I'm interested to hear where you and others draw the line between helping/supporting and cheating/fairness. People are told not to detail the inner workings of an OSB to other candidates as it undermines the selection process so why doesn't that apply in this case?
As far as what I suggested previously as preparation. I said some of the testing "feels like you either have it or you don't". This seems to be the consensus not just from me but from those who've recently completed the ASP and from the thousands of posts from those who've attempted it in the UK and Canada. On the second night of my ASP I stayed up giving a few candidates from the next course info about all the tests they would be doing the following afternoon and how I approached them. I warned them that it likely wouldn’t help a whole lot and after doing them they agreed that it didn't provide much help outside of a slight confidence boost and an easier night’s sleep. So you can say that it's wrong all you want but to quote one of your ilk from a previous page "you haven’t done it, don’t pretend you know more than the people who have." (sweeping statements fly both ways)
The only perfect preparation for the ASP would be to program your own copy of the tests but doing that you'd risk the postie delivering something addressed to you with a UK MoD letterhead. Even then, those crafty psychologists that be have created tests with very high test-retest reliability so they would be arguing that you can’t prepare at all. If you don't want to take an interest if how testing like this is designed and scored that's fine but there could be a reality that maybe it can't be prepared for as much as you'd like it to.
All that being said and despite how overtly defensive it might read, thank you for your insight, I and others will most certainly take it on board. Hopefully we can continue to discuss it without the hostility that pprune is known for.
Last edited by tayra; 23rd Apr 2018 at 09:20.
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Ok, so I seem to have struck a chord with a couple of you, which believe it or not is a good thing!
I spent a bit of time prior to replying here, as it’s easy to have an emotional and defensive response, which let’s face it is fairly natural, but often it will skew the message trying to be sent. So instead I have thought hard about how to make my points in a constructive way for all who read, and hopefully I will hit the mark....
Firstly a little background as to what I am about to say.
I obviously know a lot of RAAF pilots, I have been around the traps for a while, and I can tell you there are good ones, not so good ones, nice ones and not so nice ones, a mixed bag really. But whilst we all have our differences, fundamentally we are all very similar people, with very similar values. You could put this down to recruiting and the psych assessment if you like, and I would attribute part of this to that, but I would attribute the majority to our shared experience of a combination of basic training and pilots course. Usually even the most cocky amongst us are humbled very quickly on course, as it is easily the hardest thing you will have ever done and everybody struggles at some point. It is a very humbling experience, and excellent character building!
Like I said we all think in a very similar way, we all have the same pride (think slight superiority complex) due to what we have undertaken and achieved. Now because we all think the same, one of the things I can tell you is that none of us outside of PSA, and probably within, have much faith in the fact that a test designed by psychs can be more effective than
putting somebody on pilots course for 2 weeks (FSP) and seeing what actual flying/ learning aptitude they have. At FSP if you were an absolute weapon, and got a good wrap from your QFI, the OSB was almost a formality. Now I am not trying to start a discussion on the merits of FSP vs ASP, nor diminish anybody’s Achievements of passing ASP here, as from what I understand it is very hard with a high failure rate, I am merely building towards a point.
Now this is all just my opinion, but I know it is shared by many of my peers and I see no real reason why it would differ in the eyes of the people on your board, shy of towing the party line.
The point I have been building to, is that the OSB has always been a big part of the process, but I believe now more than ever it will be a much bigger discriminator than in the past, as every FSP candidate automatically sat a board, whereas it doesn’t sound that way for ASP. They also had a report and recommendation from an actual QFI vs just a test score. What this means for you guys out there, is you need to be well prepared and check your egos at the door as your job just got a little harder as they don’t know as much about you and your personality before you walk into that very scary door.
Now this brings me to the ultimate goal of this post, you are going to be assessed by people like me, with the same experience base, and the same expectations. We would be looking for the same things. I would like you all to think about the following 3 things:
Perception is reality. We only get to see you for a short amount of time, especially now with the introduction of ASP.
Respect is hard earned and easily lost.
Good bloke factor. Apologies to any ladies reading this, it applies to you too I just don’t really know how to word that. This will go a long long way in your favour.
Ultimately what the OSB are asking themselves throughout your interview, is would I want to be on Squadron with this person? If the answer is yes, you will get recommended.
Now back to having struck a chord....
On course we will often do a thing called buddy debriefing, where you will bring a buddy into your debrief and he listens to all your debrief points, warts and all, then you theirs. The aim of this not to embarrass, but to hopefully learn from others mistakes and triumphs, which may prevent you making the same mistake.
Now make no mistake about it, 80% of a debrief will focus on where you went wrong, the route cause and how to fix it. So students need to learn to accept constructive criticism very early on, and take what’s said in the debrief for the learning opportunity it is or they won’t last long. The biggest barrier to success is a student who believes they know more than the instructor, doesn’t accept their mistakes, and instead makes excuses. They won’t see through their own defensiveness and take the lessons on board, and in turn they won’t learn and improve. I have seen many a student like this suspended from course. Their own ego is their undoing.
The reality is as a student you don’t know what you don’t know. You need to trust in your QFI, they want to see you pass, if for nothing else than failing you is way to much hard work 😉
Now to Tayra and Hans, please consider this post your buddy debrief. You have both done some great work on here in helping others, and it sounds like more behind the scenes, I congratulate you on that and encourage you to keep it up, goes towards that good bloke factor(again sorry ladies)!
However from what I have seen you both also have had tendency’s to at times be the student with the barrier mentioned above, in that I have read some interactions with a combination of knowing better and with me excuse making and blaming others.
Now it is difficult to sometimes ascertain tone through writing, which can potentially skew what you are trying to say, I understand that, and I am only going off what I have read. In person you guys may be 180 out, but it would be remiss of me not to address this. Some of what you have written has bugged some fellow Aircrew and if I am being honest myself. Now remember as I said earlier we all think the same way. My concern is that if I have seen it here, it could come out in group activities at the OSB, which is basically being assessed by us.
As I said earlier respect is hard earned and easily lost, please remember that on here next time before biting back at somebody else. If they make an overly negative comment, take the high road and ignore it. Please don’t diminish all the good work you guys have done on this thread!
Not just to you two guys, but to everybody, read through the above again and take a critical look at yourselves and make an honest assessment. Does he make a valid point? Could I have handled that better? How could I react next time etc... The key to improvement is accepting that you can make mistakes, assess them and try to find a way from letting them re-occur.
So in finishing, please don’t take the debrief as a dig, but as a debrief is supposed to be taken. You can rest assured that you have both helped a lot of people out there, both intentionally and unintentionally.
I am on here as I am trying to help, and I would honestly like be nothing more than to see a post from you guys telling us all you will be starting some time soon.
Cheers
SHT
I spent a bit of time prior to replying here, as it’s easy to have an emotional and defensive response, which let’s face it is fairly natural, but often it will skew the message trying to be sent. So instead I have thought hard about how to make my points in a constructive way for all who read, and hopefully I will hit the mark....
Firstly a little background as to what I am about to say.
I obviously know a lot of RAAF pilots, I have been around the traps for a while, and I can tell you there are good ones, not so good ones, nice ones and not so nice ones, a mixed bag really. But whilst we all have our differences, fundamentally we are all very similar people, with very similar values. You could put this down to recruiting and the psych assessment if you like, and I would attribute part of this to that, but I would attribute the majority to our shared experience of a combination of basic training and pilots course. Usually even the most cocky amongst us are humbled very quickly on course, as it is easily the hardest thing you will have ever done and everybody struggles at some point. It is a very humbling experience, and excellent character building!
Like I said we all think in a very similar way, we all have the same pride (think slight superiority complex) due to what we have undertaken and achieved. Now because we all think the same, one of the things I can tell you is that none of us outside of PSA, and probably within, have much faith in the fact that a test designed by psychs can be more effective than
putting somebody on pilots course for 2 weeks (FSP) and seeing what actual flying/ learning aptitude they have. At FSP if you were an absolute weapon, and got a good wrap from your QFI, the OSB was almost a formality. Now I am not trying to start a discussion on the merits of FSP vs ASP, nor diminish anybody’s Achievements of passing ASP here, as from what I understand it is very hard with a high failure rate, I am merely building towards a point.
Now this is all just my opinion, but I know it is shared by many of my peers and I see no real reason why it would differ in the eyes of the people on your board, shy of towing the party line.
The point I have been building to, is that the OSB has always been a big part of the process, but I believe now more than ever it will be a much bigger discriminator than in the past, as every FSP candidate automatically sat a board, whereas it doesn’t sound that way for ASP. They also had a report and recommendation from an actual QFI vs just a test score. What this means for you guys out there, is you need to be well prepared and check your egos at the door as your job just got a little harder as they don’t know as much about you and your personality before you walk into that very scary door.
Now this brings me to the ultimate goal of this post, you are going to be assessed by people like me, with the same experience base, and the same expectations. We would be looking for the same things. I would like you all to think about the following 3 things:
Perception is reality. We only get to see you for a short amount of time, especially now with the introduction of ASP.
Respect is hard earned and easily lost.
Good bloke factor. Apologies to any ladies reading this, it applies to you too I just don’t really know how to word that. This will go a long long way in your favour.
Ultimately what the OSB are asking themselves throughout your interview, is would I want to be on Squadron with this person? If the answer is yes, you will get recommended.
Now back to having struck a chord....
On course we will often do a thing called buddy debriefing, where you will bring a buddy into your debrief and he listens to all your debrief points, warts and all, then you theirs. The aim of this not to embarrass, but to hopefully learn from others mistakes and triumphs, which may prevent you making the same mistake.
Now make no mistake about it, 80% of a debrief will focus on where you went wrong, the route cause and how to fix it. So students need to learn to accept constructive criticism very early on, and take what’s said in the debrief for the learning opportunity it is or they won’t last long. The biggest barrier to success is a student who believes they know more than the instructor, doesn’t accept their mistakes, and instead makes excuses. They won’t see through their own defensiveness and take the lessons on board, and in turn they won’t learn and improve. I have seen many a student like this suspended from course. Their own ego is their undoing.
The reality is as a student you don’t know what you don’t know. You need to trust in your QFI, they want to see you pass, if for nothing else than failing you is way to much hard work 😉
Now to Tayra and Hans, please consider this post your buddy debrief. You have both done some great work on here in helping others, and it sounds like more behind the scenes, I congratulate you on that and encourage you to keep it up, goes towards that good bloke factor(again sorry ladies)!
However from what I have seen you both also have had tendency’s to at times be the student with the barrier mentioned above, in that I have read some interactions with a combination of knowing better and with me excuse making and blaming others.
Now it is difficult to sometimes ascertain tone through writing, which can potentially skew what you are trying to say, I understand that, and I am only going off what I have read. In person you guys may be 180 out, but it would be remiss of me not to address this. Some of what you have written has bugged some fellow Aircrew and if I am being honest myself. Now remember as I said earlier we all think the same way. My concern is that if I have seen it here, it could come out in group activities at the OSB, which is basically being assessed by us.
As I said earlier respect is hard earned and easily lost, please remember that on here next time before biting back at somebody else. If they make an overly negative comment, take the high road and ignore it. Please don’t diminish all the good work you guys have done on this thread!
Not just to you two guys, but to everybody, read through the above again and take a critical look at yourselves and make an honest assessment. Does he make a valid point? Could I have handled that better? How could I react next time etc... The key to improvement is accepting that you can make mistakes, assess them and try to find a way from letting them re-occur.
So in finishing, please don’t take the debrief as a dig, but as a debrief is supposed to be taken. You can rest assured that you have both helped a lot of people out there, both intentionally and unintentionally.
I am on here as I am trying to help, and I would honestly like be nothing more than to see a post from you guys telling us all you will be starting some time soon.
Cheers
SHT
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Hey guys, sorry just a quick addition of a story that might help to add a little context to where I am coming from....
A little while ago we had a student that was pretty solid with flying, but he was very difficult in debriefs. He was quite sure of himself and more often than not would become very defensive with the QFI’s points, and displayed a few of the tendencies that I previously mentioned. He very quickly got a bad rep amongst us and people didn’t really want to fly with the guy. So my boss came to me and asked me to talk to him and sort it out.
Now I can tell you it was expecting a very difficult and awkward conversation, and this is pretty much word for word what I said....
“Dude your flying is solid, but in the debriefs most QFI’s think you are a bit of a dick”
Sounds harsh, but I am a rip the band aid off when it comes to bad news kind of guy. Now that’s how it started, and I obviously elaborated with some pretty specific examples.....
So what was the reaction on the other side of the conversation..... he was completely mortified! He had no idea that he was perceived that way, and he was especially embarrassed that the QFI body had that view of him.
The good news here was his reaction, he clearly wasn’t intending to come across that way and had not realised how he was being perceived.
The result was he changed the way he operated, people became happy to fly with him and he ultimately got better. He actually thanked me for having that conversation when he got his wings.
I guess take what you want from that story, but hopefully there is a lesson there that everybody can benefit from.
Perception is often reality.
SHT
A little while ago we had a student that was pretty solid with flying, but he was very difficult in debriefs. He was quite sure of himself and more often than not would become very defensive with the QFI’s points, and displayed a few of the tendencies that I previously mentioned. He very quickly got a bad rep amongst us and people didn’t really want to fly with the guy. So my boss came to me and asked me to talk to him and sort it out.
Now I can tell you it was expecting a very difficult and awkward conversation, and this is pretty much word for word what I said....
“Dude your flying is solid, but in the debriefs most QFI’s think you are a bit of a dick”
Sounds harsh, but I am a rip the band aid off when it comes to bad news kind of guy. Now that’s how it started, and I obviously elaborated with some pretty specific examples.....
So what was the reaction on the other side of the conversation..... he was completely mortified! He had no idea that he was perceived that way, and he was especially embarrassed that the QFI body had that view of him.
The good news here was his reaction, he clearly wasn’t intending to come across that way and had not realised how he was being perceived.
The result was he changed the way he operated, people became happy to fly with him and he ultimately got better. He actually thanked me for having that conversation when he got his wings.
I guess take what you want from that story, but hopefully there is a lesson there that everybody can benefit from.
Perception is often reality.
SHT
Join Date: Apr 2018
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It is nonsense like that which unfortunately cheapens your argument. Aside from that, however, some good points, decently presented.
Folks like yourself and Tayra have been immeasurably helpful in passing on info regarding ASP and the wider recruitment process. However that doesn't exempt you from reproach. All that carry on about whether someone should apply themselves equally to both Mission and Pilot testing at ASP a couple pages back was unnecessary, and clearly left a sour taste in a lot of users mouths. Now that doesn't particularly excuse some of the thinly veiled sledges thrown around since, but there is a fairly clear cause and effect that goes on.
Something to bear in mind is that these are potentially your future colleagues and superiors you're interacting with here, it could be beneficial to try and not look like a prick before you're even through the door (that stands for everyone). Whether they're in the wrong or not, getting into a shouting match through the medium of an "anonymous" online forum is not the appropriate course of action.
Perhaps a clean slate couldn't hurt though. And seeing as good as all of this thread is now outdated, an ASP specific one would make life easy for future candidates.
Farq.
Folks like yourself and Tayra have been immeasurably helpful in passing on info regarding ASP and the wider recruitment process. However that doesn't exempt you from reproach. All that carry on about whether someone should apply themselves equally to both Mission and Pilot testing at ASP a couple pages back was unnecessary, and clearly left a sour taste in a lot of users mouths. Now that doesn't particularly excuse some of the thinly veiled sledges thrown around since, but there is a fairly clear cause and effect that goes on.
Something to bear in mind is that these are potentially your future colleagues and superiors you're interacting with here, it could be beneficial to try and not look like a prick before you're even through the door (that stands for everyone). Whether they're in the wrong or not, getting into a shouting match through the medium of an "anonymous" online forum is not the appropriate course of action.
Perhaps a clean slate couldn't hurt though. And seeing as good as all of this thread is now outdated, an ASP specific one would make life easy for future candidates.
Farq.
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HI all,
Just passing on some info I have received.
It seems both Air Force and Navy OSB invites are going/gone out (Good luck to everyone!). The dates are; 14th-18th May for Air Force, 21st-25th May for Navy.
All the best.
Just passing on some info I have received.
It seems both Air Force and Navy OSB invites are going/gone out (Good luck to everyone!). The dates are; 14th-18th May for Air Force, 21st-25th May for Navy.
All the best.
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From my research and what I could squeeze out of those who are close to the new selection and training systems down in Sale; the ASP is not as good a predictor of success on pilots course up until wings level (it is, just not to a huge degree of statistical significance) as it is a predictor of successful completion of an operational conversion. Even though it is still a huge waste of money for someone to scrub out at BFTS or 2FTS it's relatively small compared to losing someone in their final weeks at 2OCU. At least with the new air academy it's very simple (or is intended to be) for someone to slot straight into another role should they fail early on.
Some examples I'm aware of people who completed 2FTS:
* "failed" during OCU, ended up as a QFI at Pearce at 79 Sqdn
* "failed" during training at 76 Sqdn and had a long (and successful) career in a variety of RAAF squadrons before joining the airlines
* "failed" after 2FTS during training on a non-fast jet type. Never flew operationally
* a couple who only ever flew one operational tour ... possibly just weren't cut out for the type of flying expected of them.
These 'failures' are relative - most would seem to be good pilots perhaps not suited to the demands of flying required by the RAAF
On a more optimistic note, I know of many more that were successful all the way through and served multiple operational tours.
From my observations, 2FTS means you have your "L" plates ... you'll then do a type conversion, possibly an operational conversion, and then (for non-fast jets) start on the process of training for your captainancy - and then might switch types and start the process again. It seems you never stop learning in the RAAF
regards
layman
* "failed" during OCU, ended up as a QFI at Pearce at 79 Sqdn
* "failed" during training at 76 Sqdn and had a long (and successful) career in a variety of RAAF squadrons before joining the airlines
* "failed" after 2FTS during training on a non-fast jet type. Never flew operationally
* a couple who only ever flew one operational tour ... possibly just weren't cut out for the type of flying expected of them.
These 'failures' are relative - most would seem to be good pilots perhaps not suited to the demands of flying required by the RAAF
On a more optimistic note, I know of many more that were successful all the way through and served multiple operational tours.
From my observations, 2FTS means you have your "L" plates ... you'll then do a type conversion, possibly an operational conversion, and then (for non-fast jets) start on the process of training for your captainancy - and then might switch types and start the process again. It seems you never stop learning in the RAAF
regards
layman
Would they be kept on as a pilot still within the RAAF, just sent off onto a conversion course for a different, non-fast jet airframe (i.e. C17/P8/tanker/C27 etc)?
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Thanks for the quick responses guys! It is fantastic to hear direct from past and present RAAF pilots themselves as to the ins and outs of these sorts of things.
All three of you have confirmed what I had hoped was the case; that after getting your wings yet subsequently not quite meeting the grade for a particular airframe conversion, you are still a pilot who the RAAF is committed to finding a role that you can fulfill and that you won't be out on the street looking for a new job.
Couple further question; given now it appears fast jet training will ultimately intend to be streaming graduates out into either Super Hornets, Growlers or JSF; would this be determined largely due to slots in squadrons that are available, or would a bunch of other factors go into determining which of the three airframes the RAAF decides is for you?
Growlers for instance seem really interesting in what they do, yet with 12 (now 11) Growlers, compared to 24 Rhinos and an incoming 72 JSFs, would this make a Growler slot probably the most competitive of the bunch to get in?
And would the focus on the RAAF be more to train up new pilots onto JSFs, and source Growler pilots from existing Rhino pilots who perhaps can convert relatively quickly across to the Growler platform?
Again, I have no idea how it is going to work with the three fast jet platforms, and if the RAAF will go all out and have three conversion courses running at all times for new pilots, or try to save $$$ and try to do what I mentioned above; i.e. sourcing Growler crews from existing Rhino/ex-Hornet single seat pilots, and given the numbers split between the three fast jet platforms, instead focusing a LOT more on training up new pilots for the 72 JSFs coming rather than the existing 24 Super Hornets?
All three of you have confirmed what I had hoped was the case; that after getting your wings yet subsequently not quite meeting the grade for a particular airframe conversion, you are still a pilot who the RAAF is committed to finding a role that you can fulfill and that you won't be out on the street looking for a new job.
Couple further question; given now it appears fast jet training will ultimately intend to be streaming graduates out into either Super Hornets, Growlers or JSF; would this be determined largely due to slots in squadrons that are available, or would a bunch of other factors go into determining which of the three airframes the RAAF decides is for you?
Growlers for instance seem really interesting in what they do, yet with 12 (now 11) Growlers, compared to 24 Rhinos and an incoming 72 JSFs, would this make a Growler slot probably the most competitive of the bunch to get in?
And would the focus on the RAAF be more to train up new pilots onto JSFs, and source Growler pilots from existing Rhino pilots who perhaps can convert relatively quickly across to the Growler platform?
Again, I have no idea how it is going to work with the three fast jet platforms, and if the RAAF will go all out and have three conversion courses running at all times for new pilots, or try to save $$$ and try to do what I mentioned above; i.e. sourcing Growler crews from existing Rhino/ex-Hornet single seat pilots, and given the numbers split between the three fast jet platforms, instead focusing a LOT more on training up new pilots for the 72 JSFs coming rather than the existing 24 Super Hornets?
I don't know what the current way of doing things is but in the past, the guys who performed the best on Intro Fighter Course (76SQN) went to the single seat, the Classic Hornet, the others the Pig.
That's not to say the Pig pilots were worse pilots, but just they way it generally worked out.
I guess the thinking is that the Nav will help do some of the duties...
That's not to say the Pig pilots were worse pilots, but just they way it generally worked out.
I guess the thinking is that the Nav will help do some of the duties...
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I don't know what the current way of doing things is but in the past, the guys who performed the best on Intro Fighter Course (76SQN) went to the single seat, the Classic Hornet, the others the Pig.
That's not to say the Pig pilots were worse pilots, but just they way it generally worked out.
I guess the thinking is that the Nav will help do some of the duties...
That's not to say the Pig pilots were worse pilots, but just they way it generally worked out.
I guess the thinking is that the Nav will help do some of the duties...
Certainly makes it interesting with the three fast jets now, especially given how something like the Growler is quite unique in the RAAF now. Curious to see what sort of pilot they'd be thinking would be more suited for an EW role in the Growler as opposed to a more traditional strike role in a Rhino or JSF. And then again, who'd be better in a single seat strike fighter role (JSF) as opposed to a multi crew (Rhino).
Last edited by 13Beast; 3rd May 2018 at 02:48. Reason: typo
