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RAAF Flight Screening Program (Merged)

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RAAF Flight Screening Program (Merged)

Old 27th Dec 2010, 08:57
  #1661 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Victoria
Age: 58
Posts: 984
Nope. That's the point.
Captain Sand Dune is offline  
Old 7th Jan 2011, 11:32
  #1662 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Melbourne
Age: 30
Posts: 59
Hello all,

Posting after a break, to update my situation and make a few requests. My application has moved backwards since assessment day. I cleared assessment day, and was later told that my file was sent off to the PSA, or rather I found out that it had been sent off. Now, like some of you already know I am only a Permanent Resident and a few of you have pointed out to me that its possible to complete the FSP without a citizenship. In my case however, I was told that I wouldn’t have my file being looked at by the PSA until I had received my citizenship. My file was apparently sent off after a week or so since the assessment day to the PSA, and was held there for about 3 weeks before this was communicated to me [The file would have been sent sometime around August last year to the PSA and I am eligible for a citizenship only on the 8th of March 2011, therefore losing about 6/12 months of the 12 month validity of my scores at the PSA]. I was also offered to have my file recalled from the PSA to be resent after I received my citizenship, from which point my 12 month validity period would restart. I was at a dilemma on whether or not to proceed with the option, but decided to trust my case coordinators advice to have the file recalled, and am grateful that she mentioned that such an option exists. However, my concern is that I never received a confirmation letter from the PSA that my file had been received though it should have been there over three weeks before I decided to have it recalled. This has me doubting if my file was sent off at all in the first place. I hope that things are just the way I was informed they were, and not a complete mess at DFR.

In any case, I have managed to save some green, close to two and half thousand dollars in the hope of being able to obtain some sort of flying experience within the next two months, the record of which I could then attach to my file while it is going to be resent to give it more weight. I was hoping to get some feedback from the very helpful community here on how to go about this, within a strict budget. My internet searches and general enquiries have come up with very vague and expensive results.

Best Regards
Septerra
septerra is offline  
Old 7th Jan 2011, 20:46
  #1663 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Melbourne
Age: 29
Posts: 13
Septerra,

They take a little while to send out letters from psa. I still haven't got mine and they've had my file for almost a month. Granted that was over Christmas, but I was told to expect it later in Jan.

For flying, I did mine for $220 an hour at Tristar Aviation in Moorabbin. There are a lot of schools next door to each other in Moorabbin so it might pay to wander in and ask for their price.

Good luck with everything!
Caity1835 is offline  
Old 8th Jan 2011, 11:54
  #1664 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Australia
Posts: 7
Septerra,

Take your $2000 and go gliding. Why, because it pure stick and rudder, gives you great judgement, wind awareness and it is cheap. $2000 will get you heaps of airtime. Evan better would be motor gliding. Still cheap and less time waiting for a launch.

If I wish I had gliding time prior to joining 7 years ago. Two of my course mates did and they performed very well.

Think wind
VNE405 is offline  
Old 10th Jan 2011, 20:45
  #1665 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: SAUDI
Posts: 216
Sep/Caity,

why not ring PSA?
finestkind is offline  
Old 11th Jan 2011, 00:04
  #1666 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Australia
Posts: 3
Hi guys,

Long time reader of the forums though never posted. Just wanted to bring a few things up I've noticed and I don't want anyone to take offence or otherwise to them.

First up, from what I can make out, DFR is a joke. Some of you have been lucky to get into flight selection rather rapidly but spare a though for those of us who were cleared and have spent over 7 months waiting (and still waiting) to go down to Tamworth due to incompetence. My case manager basically kept putting off her applicants processing for several months so that someone else could pick up the slack when she went on mpaid maternity leave. I personally chased up my paperwork every week for 2 months with the same response. "It's on my desk, sorry I haven't sent it, I'll do it now." I heard that phrase parroted back to me every week for over 2 months. Then she went on maternity leave and my paperwork was still not sent.

Anyways, another point I wanted to raise, and please don't take offence to this Wag, but, how is it that a 40 year old man with high cholesterol and as such is a high risk for heart disease and stroke, and by inference, leads a more or less unhealthy lifestyle, been cleared for PSA. Now I realise 43 is the cut off age, but, 40 is really pushing it. Assuming he gets a clearance to be a pilot, by the time he's finished training he's extremely close to 50 years of age.

Has anyone else noticed the recruitment drives recently, as well as pilot becoming a priority job again? I personally have several contacts and have been talking to several MPs about this and all have said the same thing. Defence is trying to force people out, not get them in, though you wouldn't know it with all the money being spent on recruitment drives. If A Current Affairs is anything to go by, there are over 400 different types of jobs in the Defence force that need filling which from my understanding is BS. Defence does not have the money nor the resources to keep up with the amount of people wanting to join due to GFC.

Sorry this is a little jumbled guys, I needed a place to rant on my disatisfaction as to the recruiting process. 18 months in the recruitment process, despite my qualifications, life experience, multi-lingual abilities and professional athletic achievements leaves me with a sour taste in my mouth when kids straight out of school and old men are taking less than 4 months to go from You session to flight selection.

There is a lot of other stuff I'd like to bring up but right now I just can't be bothered. I'm extremely disappointed in the state of our defence force recruitment process and it is starting to make me second guess my wishes to join the Australian defence force.
djwarchild is offline  
Old 11th Jan 2011, 00:13
  #1667 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Australia, NSW, Lismore
Age: 26
Posts: 36
Septerra, definately go gliding. Its all attitude flying and builds good lookouts and stick-rudder coordination. All it takes is a few hours and you'd be in a really good place for FSP.

Been so busy over the past few months but its was all worth it, got an offer for Navy Pilot. If you've got any questions about anything feel free to message me.
AlexanderB is offline  
Old 11th Jan 2011, 10:30
  #1668 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: SAUDI
Posts: 216
djwarchild,

I know people are concerned about rocking the boat and having their file put at the bottom of the tray but it looks as if you have nothing to lose by asking some pointed questions of the recruiting centre. Remember its your tax money (or parents) that the goverment is throwing at the civilian organisation that is running recruiting. If you have no joy there approach PSA or your local member (they love to get noticed).

Given the amount of info on this site everyone should be aware that if there are no issues it should take no more than six months to have your dossier sent to PSA. 18 months is ridiculous. You need an answer as to why.

Regarding the ADF not wanting people due to lack of money, maybe so but why would that change your desire to get in. They will always need new blood until we stop having an ADF. Given the developments happening in our region I don't see this happening.
finestkind is offline  
Old 11th Jan 2011, 11:27
  #1669 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 123
Hi guys,

First up, from what I can make out, DFR is a joke. Some of you have been lucky to get into flight selection rather rapidly but spare a though for those of us who were cleared and have spent over 7 months waiting (and still waiting) to go down to Tamworth due to incompetence. My case manager basically kept putting off her applicants processing for several months so that someone else could pick up the slack when she went on mpaid maternity leave. I personally chased up my paperwork every week for 2 months with the same response. "It's on my desk, sorry I haven't sent it, I'll do it now." I heard that phrase parroted back to me every week for over 2 months. Then she went on maternity leave and my paperwork was still not sent.
Maybe you should have asked to speak to her supervisor, or sent an email with boss CC'd in, or a letter with same(i.e. create a paper trail).

Anyways, another point I wanted to raise, and please don't take offence to this Wag, but, how is it that a 40 year old man with high cholesterol and as such is a high risk for heart disease and stroke, and by inference, leads a more or less unhealthy lifestyle, been cleared for PSA. Now I realise 43 is the cut off age, but, 40 is really pushing it. Assuming he gets a clearance to be a pilot, by the time he's finished training he's extremely close to 50 years of age.
Not your problem to worry about brother, why don't you just worry about the factors you can control. IF you get in, that is probably the lesson you want to learn first.

Has anyone else noticed the recruitment drives recently, as well as pilot becoming a priority job again? I personally have several contacts and have been talking to several MPs about this and all have said the same thing. Defence is trying to force people out, not get them in, though you wouldn't know it with all the money being spent on recruitment drives. If A Current Affairs is anything to go by, there are over 400 different types of jobs in the Defence force that need filling which from my understanding is BS. Defence does not have the money nor the resources to keep up with the amount of people wanting to join due to GFC.
Not your problem to worry about brother.

Sorry this is a little jumbled guys, I needed a place to rant on my disatisfaction as to the recruiting process. 18 months in the recruitment process, despite my qualifications, life experience, multi-lingual abilities and professional athletic achievements leaves me with a sour taste in my mouth when kids straight out of school and old men are taking less than 4 months to go from You session to flight selection.


There is a lot of other stuff I'd like to bring up but right now I just can't be bothered. I'm extremely disappointed in the state of our defence force recruitment process and it is starting to make me second guess my wishes to join the Australian defence force.
I'm sure the people currently serving cant wait to work with you.
flighthappens is offline  
Old 12th Jan 2011, 04:27
  #1670 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Australia
Age: 28
Posts: 33
Hi
Is anyone on here starting the IOC at East Sale in early march?

Cheers

Nick
NicKM91 is offline  
Old 12th Jan 2011, 20:28
  #1671 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Sydney
Age: 41
Posts: 5
Djwarchild, yep I completely understand your frustration. It's taken me 18 mths to get to FSP and I'm already in the defence force! However if you really want it bad enough, once at FSP these hurdles are a good indicator for your commitment and motivation for wanting the job. With every negative there is a positive. I am sorry DFR has been a rubbish process for you but even when you are in, if you want something done properly you'll have to do it yourself. Good luck mate, stick with it and hopefully you'll get there soon.
GSXRMCK is offline  
Old 13th Jan 2011, 01:03
  #1672 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Sydney
Posts: 22
Originally Posted by NicKM91
Hi
Is anyone on here starting the IOC at East Sale in early march?

Cheers

Nick
Yup. 7 weeks of freedom left.
Polymer Fox is offline  
Old 14th Jan 2011, 21:04
  #1673 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Australia
Age: 28
Posts: 33
Hey, check your pm's
NicKM91 is offline  
Old 15th Jan 2011, 14:32
  #1674 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 28
First up, from what I can make out, DFR is a joke. Some of you have been lucky to get into flight selection rather rapidly but spare a though for those of us who were cleared and have spent over 7 months waiting (and still waiting) to go down to Tamworth due to incompetence. My case manager basically kept putting off her applicants processing for several months so that someone else could pick up the slack when she went on mpaid maternity leave. I personally chased up my paperwork every week for 2 months with the same response. "It's on my desk, sorry I haven't sent it, I'll do it now." I heard that phrase parroted back to me every week for over 2 months. Then she went on maternity leave and my paperwork was still not sent.
Welcome to the ADF ! Be mindful that you're not only making application for selection as an ADF Pilot, but also a Commissioned Officer. You should have demonstrated some leadership potential and followed this matter up with the case manager's supervisor or your local member of parliament.

Now I realise 43 is the cut off age, but, 40 is really pushing it. Assuming he gets a clearance to be a pilot, by the time he's finished training he's extremely close to 50 years of age.
Forty (40) is 'really pushing it' huh ? Is that a professional opinion ? What's your basis for this comment ?
Some of the higher scoring student pilot graduates' from both BFTS and 2FTS have included students' in the 37-45 year old age bracket. A number of PLT and ACO students' on my IOC were in their very late 30's. All of them had more tenacity, common sense, dedication, commitment & leadership ability than most of the whinging "Gen-Y's" on course - without exception !!

Defence is trying to force people out, not get them in, though you wouldn't know it with all the money being spent on recruitment drives. If A Current Affairs is anything to go by, there are over 400 different types of jobs in the Defence force that need filling which from my understanding is BS. Defence does not have the money nor the resources to keep up with the amount of people wanting to join due to GFC.
Are you sure about all of this ? Sounds like drivel to me.

... 18 months in the recruitment process, despite my qualifications, life experience, multi-lingual abilities and professional athletic achievements leaves me with a sour taste in my mouth when kids straight out of school and old men are taking less than 4 months to go from You session to flight selection.
Why should "professional athletic achievements" give you some 'edge' or priority in the recruiting process ? Means nothing mate - trust me ! OSB may discuss these "achievements" with you briefly during the interview, but that's about it. Multi-lingual abilities have no bearing either. Great if you're applying to become an INTELO, but otherwise - it's just a 'nice thing to have' ... much in the same vain as being able to play a piano or guitar in the Mess !

ADF selection of "kids straight out of school" is a fact of life. It's no secret: "kids" are easier to mould into the ADF psyche, than say older applicants' who possess significant life experience/s. "Kids" also apparently learn at a faster rate. The peak learning age is allegedly around 25-27 (if you believe the 'dumb bell' theory that is ! I don't.).

Based upon your previous comments, I assume your definition of "old men" encompasses those in the 40 plus demographic ? If that's the case, I can assure you that 40 is NOT old ! The ADF has some very encouraging statistics, which show excellent results in military flying training from these "old men". These guys get through on their own merit, aptitude, abilities and attitude - just like everyone else !

There is a lot of other stuff I'd like to bring up but right now I just can't be bothered. I'm extremely disappointed in the state of our defence force recruitment process and it is starting to make me second guess my wishes to join the Australian defence force.
Sorry, I couldn't locate a 'dummy spit' smily icon !

It you're adopting this attitude now, how do you expect to cope with the rigours associated with Officer training and military flying training ?
I understand you're justifiably disappointed with the ADF recruiting process; however, you really need to take a long hard look at whether the ADF is right for you ? Based on some of your 'attitudes,' I feel you may struggle - particularly during the Officer training phases.
Aussie_Aviator is offline  
Old 15th Jan 2011, 19:40
  #1675 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Victoria
Age: 58
Posts: 984
I'm extremely disappointed in the state of our defence force recruitment process and it is starting to make me second guess my wishes to join the Australian defence force.
Defence recruiting was civilianized some years ago. Speaks for itself.
Why should "professional athletic achievements" give you some 'edge' or priority in the recruiting process ? Means nothing mate - trust me !
Correct. Athletic performance has almost no relation to the ability to learn in the air.
Forty (40) is 'really pushing it' huh ? Is that a professional opinion ? What's your basis for this comment ?
Yes.
Yes.
17 years of military flying instruction. What's yours?
Some of the higher scoring student pilot graduates' from both BFTS and 2FTS have included students' in the 37-45 year old age bracket. A number of PLT and ACO students' on my IOC were in their very late 30's. All of them had more tenacity, common sense, dedication, commitment & leadership ability than most of the whinging "Gen-Y's" on course - without exception !!
The older guys certainly do demonstrate tenacity, and they generally accept criticism in a much more mature fashion then their "Gen Y' counterparts. However in my experience the older guys have difficulty learning at the required rate. Put simply it's really a case of "old dogs - new tricks". Don't get me wrong; I really enjoy flying with the older blokes, but in my experience they do not learn as quickly as the young guys. Additionally they come with baggage which can make their management quite a handful.
Some of the higher scoring student pilot graduates' from both BFTS and 2FTS have included students' in the 37-45 year old age bracket.
Yes, those that pass.
ADF selection of "kids straight out of school" is a fact of life. It's no secret: "kids" are easier to mould into the ADF psyche, than say older applicants' who possess significant life experience/s. "Kids" also apparently learn at a faster rate. The peak learning age is allegedly around 25-27 (if you believe the 'dumb bell' theory that is ! I don't.).
I do. In my opinion the ideal candidate is single and 20 - 25. Of course in this politically correct age we are required to accept a much wider range of demographic. Consequently we waste much time, money and effort proving what was common knowledge in "the old days".
Captain Sand Dune is offline  
Old 15th Jan 2011, 22:49
  #1676 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Australia
Posts: 7
You must learn very quickly to 'hurry up and wait'.

Remember to trim or die!
VNE405 is offline  
Old 15th Jan 2011, 22:52
  #1677 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Tamworth
Posts: 88
In my humble opinion, Everybody's different. Regardless of age, If you want it bad enough and are truly dedicated to the task of putting in the hard work, dedication and "blood,sweat and tears", you can get it. I know, I know, sounds like a cliche, but it's a cliche simply because it's true.

I'm 32 now and know personally that when I was 20, I didn't have enough of those above attributes to pass something like ADF pilot's course. I feel now is the best time for me to accept the challenge. But as I said, that's me, eveybody's different. This maybe the complete opposite case for some 20 year olds or some 40 year olds.

I had a great run in the selection process until after successful FSP where things started to unravel before my eyes but I'm still here and want this even more despite the disappointments. The Hunger grows.

I believe that if you're letting a few setbacks and/or frustrations along the way make you think twice, you don't really want it enough. And that goes for all things in life.

Chris

Last edited by cj0203; 16th Jan 2011 at 06:37.
cj0203 is offline  
Old 17th Jan 2011, 00:21
  #1678 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 28
Defence recruiting was civilianized some years ago. Speaks for itself.
True. Inefficiences associated with 'civilianising' many defence support services is readily apparent. Recruiting is no different. I'm sure we've all heard numerous 'horror stories'. At the end of the day, there are those who persist with the 'process' and those that don't. Good luck to those that do

17 years of military flying instruction. What's yours?
Impressive and appreciated. The foundation of your opinions are accepted, valued and certainly not challenged. I'm sure there are many prospective aircrew applicants' on this site who can learn much from your experience and position within military aviation. Clearly, I do not have an instructional background. My opinions are based on personal experience, from let's say - the 'receiving end'

The older guys certainly do demonstrate tenacity, and they generally accept criticism in a much more mature fashion then their "Gen Y' counterparts. However in my experience the older guys have difficulty learning at the required rate. Put simply it's really a case of "old dogs - new tricks". Don't get me wrong; I really enjoy flying with the older blokes, but in my experience they do not learn as quickly as the young guys. Additionally they come with baggage which can make their management quite a handful.
Agreed. And I'm in no position to question your years of instructional experience or observations relating to rates of learning amongst all student age demographics. However, from a personal perspective - I know that I am actually learning at a far greater rate - at my current age (41), than say, when I was 25. I don't understand why as this is contrary to most accepted psychological/physiological studies and doesn't conform to the 'bell curve theory'. I know I would not have passed CSE as a 19-24 year old.

A number of my friends' who have undertaken PLT CSE as older age students', have found the CSE no more or less challenging than their younger peers and indeed, have at times - struggled with certain parts of the syllabus - much to the same degree as their younger CSE members. Though, all have adapted to and ultimately, enjoyed the unique training methodology.
They too, have all agreed that their rates of learning do not appear to have deteriorated with age.

I agree too, that there are some older students who bring with them, "baggage" - which is only to be expected if they are married and have a family. To that end, I know of two guys who have DOR'd because of family issues. It's a real shame, but that's life !

Consequently we waste much time, money and effort proving what was common knowledge in "the old days".
Clearly, you're in the best position to form such an opinion and one must accept your assessment of this situation.

It will be interesting to view future recruitment trends of 'older' applicants for all aircrew positions and their success/failure rate statistics whilst on course.

The underlying basis of my comments is based on the opinion that I don't believe 'djwarchild' has the professional expertise or qualifications to give a credible assessment of the training risks associated with the recruitment of older applicants on PLT CSE. This is clearly the domain of OSB and those whose charter it is to make such 'risk assessments' and possible subsequent offers for TRG.
Nor do I believe DFR are prioritising or favouring "kids" out of school or older applicant's, over his application alone. On the surface, it seems he has struck an element of "inefficiency" in the system and that is regrettable. However, there are methods by which one can attempt to remedy the situation. Spitting the dummy and chucking a tantrum on a public forum site are clearly not effective methods of redress ! Just my opinion.
Aussie_Aviator is offline  
Old 17th Jan 2011, 01:24
  #1679 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Victoria
Age: 58
Posts: 984
Spitting the dummy and chucking a tantrum on a public forum site are clearly not effective methods of redress !
Yeah, but it's funny.
Not as painful as chucking tantrums via redress of grievance either.
Captain Sand Dune is offline  
Old 17th Jan 2011, 02:04
  #1680 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 312
As ex NCO aircrew C130 Loadmaster, I would like to share some results from me observing pilots who have graduated from flying school, but who have a long way to go before they can consider their learning curve has come up on line.

The ADF does not care whether you are an ace pilot or one who is working hard to learn They are looking for attitude and a desire to learn.

Many would be pilots fail because they have not learnt that at least in the Air Force they are looking for leaders first and I suspect that many fail because of lack of this ability and the desire to lead.

Some of the tantrums I have seen on this forum show a lack of maturity, and lack of being able to work through problems to enable missions to be completed. Did you ever stop to think that the reason, even though you may have passed through the first stage, that your application, is that the Air Force is suspects some short coming and is doing this, so you can prove by your actions whether you have it or not.

Someone who is good at problem solving may in actual fact , shine above someone who can fly well, but cannot show leadership and maturity Your methods of over coming what you see as short comings in the system, could make or break what other wise could have been a good application.

Remember well that just because you want it, the government is under no obligation to give you a job and if it does it is on their terms and not yours.

Good pilots are a plenty, and unless you want to spend your career as a senior FLTLT, then you will need to change.

I remember well a very junior pilot coming the bounce with a senior flight engineer, in front of the CO. I watched the W/O conduct himself with great dignity until the time it was for take off.

Out said the CO sit on the bunk. ENG hope in the right seat. ENG did the take off and hand flew the air plane to Laverton, with the CO taking control only on finals.

We had a flight deck debriefing where the CO did the talking and he said. Right now you are not very much use to us, you put the flaps up and down and the same with the gear, and we let you talk on the radio. If you are lucky you will make the grade but you have much to learn. I have been in the Air Force for 25 years and I still do not know as much as the W/O does.

The W/O was one of the simulator instructors and actually had more simulator hours as a pilot than the new co pilot.

The lesson is to use the power of reason and be flexable enough to try another tack if things are not going the way that the like.

For all you know this lass could be doing what she is told, with a bunch of selectors looking over he shoulders for your reaction, and you are sitting there like a a school boy spitting the dummy. You need to change direction or the system will catch you out, think about how I have this problem how am I going to overcome this problem as my efforts right now are good good enough.

I wish you all the best and hope that maybe I have opened your eyes on how to overcome the problem. Show maturity and leadership and you will quickly move up the line.

All the best Col
herkman is offline  

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