Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II
Danny, that accident has always worried me, though not because of autopilots but rather because of Air France, BEA (the French Air Accident Investigator), and DGAC (the French CAA) practice. When the article says:-
It implies that this was down to Air France to counter. It was not, it was down to DGAC. It was a fundamental airworthiness problem that should have been resolved urgently (even your Vengeance would have been compromised if the pitot head or static vent was partially blocked and thus giving spurious airspeed readings!). It was not. This is not the first Air France accident that has blamed the pilots when the basic cause was lack of airworthiness (eg the A320 at Mulhouse in June 1988).
I don't know where this article got its facts from, but the general trend to concentrate on the two pilots rather than the Air Regulator is par for the course for BEA.
Modern aircraft are certainly complicated, whether in autopilot or not. I remember my first experiences of a glass cockpit were a real challenge. However, nothing really changes, you still have to be ahead of what is happening or you will merely follow it to its inevitable conclusion.
I notice that Bonin, the PF, is stated as having acquired almost 3000 hours on modern FBW (Airbus?) aircraft. I would hardly call that minimal. If he behaved in the erratic way stated, having taken control when the autopilot dropped out, I would suggest that is a comment on Air France pilot training whose product he was. Similarly a company, that merely keeps another pilot (Robert) just in flying practice so he can sit in an office rather than the RHS learning his trade to assume the LHS, has rather missed the point of running an airline.
Sorry for this off-piste rant, but airworthiness is a bit of a thing with me, as some here might have noticed!
The clogging of that particular probe design was a known issue on certain Airbus models, and though it occurred only under rare high-altitude conditions and had never led to an accident, it was considered to be serious enough that Air France had decided to replace the probes with ones of an improved design
I don't know where this article got its facts from, but the general trend to concentrate on the two pilots rather than the Air Regulator is par for the course for BEA.
Modern aircraft are certainly complicated, whether in autopilot or not. I remember my first experiences of a glass cockpit were a real challenge. However, nothing really changes, you still have to be ahead of what is happening or you will merely follow it to its inevitable conclusion.
I notice that Bonin, the PF, is stated as having acquired almost 3000 hours on modern FBW (Airbus?) aircraft. I would hardly call that minimal. If he behaved in the erratic way stated, having taken control when the autopilot dropped out, I would suggest that is a comment on Air France pilot training whose product he was. Similarly a company, that merely keeps another pilot (Robert) just in flying practice so he can sit in an office rather than the RHS learning his trade to assume the LHS, has rather missed the point of running an airline.
Sorry for this off-piste rant, but airworthiness is a bit of a thing with me, as some here might have noticed!
Last edited by Chugalug2; 10th Jan 2016 at 07:58.
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Thank you, Chugalug. Aside from what went on in the flight deck on that ill-fated flight, that's very valid observation. 
Danny, re the Vengeance and the differing wing angles of incidence between the A31 and the A35:
You have said that you hadn't personally flown the A35 version, but did you hear whether the revised AoI
required any significant adjustment to takeoff and landing techniques in that aircraft?
.
Danny, re the Vengeance and the differing wing angles of incidence between the A31 and the A35:
You have said that you hadn't personally flown the A35 version, but did you hear whether the revised AoI
required any significant adjustment to takeoff and landing techniques in that aircraft?
.
Last edited by Stanwell; 10th Jan 2016 at 08:51.
When I was young
The final post no. 23 from the memoirs of Tempest pilot Flt Lt Jack Stafford, DFC, RNZAF
The final post no. 23 from the memoirs of Tempest pilot Flt Lt Jack Stafford, DFC, RNZAF
NOW I am an old man, and I love to spend time at the beach. The sun is a delight on my ancient bones. I go into the surf and revel in the delicate taste of the salt. I am invigorated by the crash of the waves and I forget I am old. I leave the water contented, lying on the sands while through my sunglasses I look at the beautiful New Zealand sky.
I see the fluffy little white clouds hanging motionless. High in the air, at the level of those comforting clouds, small specks wheel and drop with effortless ease, playing, lifting, dropping, always in total control, the movements of their wings imperceptible. These are the seabirds, travellers of the oceans. Independently they conduct their lives, independently they die when their time is over.
I watch them, I admire them, and I say to myself: Once, in a glider, I did that. When I was young.
I see the fluffy little white clouds hanging motionless. High in the air, at the level of those comforting clouds, small specks wheel and drop with effortless ease, playing, lifting, dropping, always in total control, the movements of their wings imperceptible. These are the seabirds, travellers of the oceans. Independently they conduct their lives, independently they die when their time is over.
I watch them, I admire them, and I say to myself: Once, in a glider, I did that. When I was young.
Last edited by Geriaviator; 12th Jan 2016 at 07:21.
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A.31 - A.35 ?
Stanwell (your #8087),
Never having flown one, but I'd be fairly confident that the 4° AoI would make a poor aircraft a little better. For a start, it would "sit" properly in the cruise, and not go round "dragging its #rse" as it did, and final approach would not need to be in a three-point attitude, but apart from that landing and taxying would be normal, and the visibility round the nose no worse than (say) a Spitfire.
The 64-dollar question was "how would it dive ?" Re-trimming nose-heavy as you accelerated in the dive would be an extra job you could well do without, and on pull-out a load of nose-down trim was what you didn't need when you were "greyed out" and in no position do much about it.
As I've said before, it would make it a better aircraft, but a worse dive bomber.
Danny.
Never having flown one, but I'd be fairly confident that the 4° AoI would make a poor aircraft a little better. For a start, it would "sit" properly in the cruise, and not go round "dragging its #rse" as it did, and final approach would not need to be in a three-point attitude, but apart from that landing and taxying would be normal, and the visibility round the nose no worse than (say) a Spitfire.
The 64-dollar question was "how would it dive ?" Re-trimming nose-heavy as you accelerated in the dive would be an extra job you could well do without, and on pull-out a load of nose-down trim was what you didn't need when you were "greyed out" and in no position do much about it.
As I've said before, it would make it a better aircraft, but a worse dive bomber.
Danny.
Last edited by Danny42C; 11th Jan 2016 at 04:03. Reason: Error
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Flight Lieutenant "Jack" Stafford DFC RNZAF, (decd).
Geriaviator (your #8088),
What a wonderful end to a gripping memoir ! I didn't know that Jack had left us so recently. Requiescat in Pace.
And thank you for letting us all read his writings - as I've said: "The man was a poet".
Danny.
What a wonderful end to a gripping memoir ! I didn't know that Jack had left us so recently. Requiescat in Pace.
And thank you for letting us all read his writings - as I've said: "The man was a poet".
Danny.
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OK, thanks Danny.
Geriaviator. That was very, very good and much appreciated. Thanks for your time and trouble.
.
Geriaviator. That was very, very good and much appreciated. Thanks for your time and trouble.
.
Last edited by Stanwell; 10th Jan 2016 at 20:10.
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AF447.
Chugalug (your #8086),
I must agree that "blame the pilots" has always been a useful way of deflecting attention from the more fundamental failings of the designers and regulatory authorities, and many recent accidents have underlined that fact. But it will be ever so, human nature being what it is.
What shocked me about the story was the extent to which "pilotage" (as we knew it) seems to have been almost squeezed out of commercial airliner operation. I suppose that I am an old dodo, and the improvement in fatality rates proves that the new ways are better than the old, but even so, something has been lost.
As far as I can see, "Normal Law" means that the Airbus is flying you: you are no more than a systems manager - and when something does go wrong, you revert to "Alternate Law" and you're presented with the task of actually flying the aeroplane - but you've long since forgotten how to do it !
Better to leave it at that, as now we really are "off Thread" (but food for thought).
Cheers, Danny.
I must agree that "blame the pilots" has always been a useful way of deflecting attention from the more fundamental failings of the designers and regulatory authorities, and many recent accidents have underlined that fact. But it will be ever so, human nature being what it is.
What shocked me about the story was the extent to which "pilotage" (as we knew it) seems to have been almost squeezed out of commercial airliner operation. I suppose that I am an old dodo, and the improvement in fatality rates proves that the new ways are better than the old, but even so, something has been lost.
As far as I can see, "Normal Law" means that the Airbus is flying you: you are no more than a systems manager - and when something does go wrong, you revert to "Alternate Law" and you're presented with the task of actually flying the aeroplane - but you've long since forgotten how to do it !
Better to leave it at that, as now we really are "off Thread" (but food for thought).
Cheers, Danny.
Geriaviator, thank you for your excellent posts from Jack Stafford's memoirs. He may have had the job of busting anything and everything that moved on the ground, but he was obviously a man of sensitivity. The gliders seemed to bring about an epiphany for him. The serene simplicity and quiet consorting with nature must have been in stark contrast with the noisy and aggressive business that was his recent employ. As you say, Peace at Last!
Danny, agreed that discussing modern aircraft management has no place here, but that is the point I'm afraid. Modern airliners are managed rather than flown and there is some worry that they do not require, nor even encourage, much in the way of manual handling, a lot of which is done in the simulators instead. The more proactive operators seek to address the issue, but others do not...
Danny, agreed that discussing modern aircraft management has no place here, but that is the point I'm afraid. Modern airliners are managed rather than flown and there is some worry that they do not require, nor even encourage, much in the way of manual handling, a lot of which is done in the simulators instead. The more proactive operators seek to address the issue, but others do not...
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AF447
Chugalug,
Seems Great Minds Think Alike ! Look what's come in on:
at 0209 today (from Sawbones62).
Danny.
Seems Great Minds Think Alike ! Look what's come in on:
...PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page Report: US Government not ensuring pilot skills are sharp..
Reload this Page Report: US Government not ensuring pilot skills are sharp..
Danny.
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Old Comrades
I enjoyed this short attachment at St. Athan. I was invited to fly with a Squadron Leader pilot in the new Mosquito aircraft while at St. Athan, and found it quite marvellous. It would afterwards supersede the Beaufighter to some extent, and although built largely of plywood, it had good firepower and was incredibly fast, due of course to its low weight.
One slight mishap in a Beaufighter at St. Athan was almost a very serious crash. Coming in to land one day, after the usual test flight lasting a little over an hour, I was just above the landing field and about to touch down, when the port wing (the left side) dropped violently, and I thought we were about to cartwheel. I corrected mightily with the right rudder, throwing open the throttle of the port engine to make the wing pick up. I thought momentarily about going round again, but decided to land straight ahead, as we regained a normal attitude. I touched down successfully, although a little roughly, and we taxied back to the hangar with a very shaken Sergeant technician in the back seat.
It was just as well I hadn't gone round again! We found that the left wing tip had been damaged, because it had actually touched the grass field when the wing dropped. We also discovered something much more serious. The pitot head (a tube device that measures airspeed by means of the airflow) was stuffed with grass and earth. I had been very close to disaster with the dropped wing, and if I had attempted to fly off and go round again, I would have had little idea of my speed for the next landing attempt.
The trouble found, was due to a blockage in the fuel flow. Fuel for the engines had been drained from the right wing's outer tank, without any being drawn from the left wing. The result was an overloaded left wing, which consequently dropped as soon as we reached stalling speed for the landing.
One day I had the opportunity to take up a Tiger Moth for some sort of test. I picked the appropriate spot in the sky not too far away to practise aerobatics, made my way back to the airfield, and finding myself with too mch altitude, I side-slipped into the approach and made a nice landing. Back at the Flight Office I met an Air Transport Auxiliary male who rudely said, “You can’t side-slip a Tiger Moth into a landing”. He was the first male ATA member I had met; all the others were lovely young women, I’m pleased to say. “Mate” I said to him, “if I didn’t side-slip, what would you call it?”
When I returned to 219 Squadron with a healthy total of Beaufighter hours to my credit, I was put on night patrols. This was not an exciting routine, and consisted of "stooging" backwards and forwards along the coast line, between radar marker beacons, waiting for intruder aircraft to arrive from across the Channel. Preparation for this was made by sitting around from mid-afternooon until dark wearing strong sun-glasses to ensure night vision remained the best.
As soon as "bandits" were spotted by Ground Control - usually when hey were quite a long distance away, rookie pilots like me were recalled to Base, and an experienced pilot (e.g. Squadron Leader Wight-Boycott) was hastily "scrambled" and vectored to the enemy aircraft. I didn't have to endure the boring patrols too long, however. I hadn't been back on the squadron more than three or four weeks, when the news came that Bob Hessey and Iwere posted overseas, to the Middle East along with another 14 two-men crews from Church Fenton OTU, all of whom had been so expensively trained for the night fighter duties.
One slight mishap in a Beaufighter at St. Athan was almost a very serious crash. Coming in to land one day, after the usual test flight lasting a little over an hour, I was just above the landing field and about to touch down, when the port wing (the left side) dropped violently, and I thought we were about to cartwheel. I corrected mightily with the right rudder, throwing open the throttle of the port engine to make the wing pick up. I thought momentarily about going round again, but decided to land straight ahead, as we regained a normal attitude. I touched down successfully, although a little roughly, and we taxied back to the hangar with a very shaken Sergeant technician in the back seat.
It was just as well I hadn't gone round again! We found that the left wing tip had been damaged, because it had actually touched the grass field when the wing dropped. We also discovered something much more serious. The pitot head (a tube device that measures airspeed by means of the airflow) was stuffed with grass and earth. I had been very close to disaster with the dropped wing, and if I had attempted to fly off and go round again, I would have had little idea of my speed for the next landing attempt.
The trouble found, was due to a blockage in the fuel flow. Fuel for the engines had been drained from the right wing's outer tank, without any being drawn from the left wing. The result was an overloaded left wing, which consequently dropped as soon as we reached stalling speed for the landing.
One day I had the opportunity to take up a Tiger Moth for some sort of test. I picked the appropriate spot in the sky not too far away to practise aerobatics, made my way back to the airfield, and finding myself with too mch altitude, I side-slipped into the approach and made a nice landing. Back at the Flight Office I met an Air Transport Auxiliary male who rudely said, “You can’t side-slip a Tiger Moth into a landing”. He was the first male ATA member I had met; all the others were lovely young women, I’m pleased to say. “Mate” I said to him, “if I didn’t side-slip, what would you call it?”
When I returned to 219 Squadron with a healthy total of Beaufighter hours to my credit, I was put on night patrols. This was not an exciting routine, and consisted of "stooging" backwards and forwards along the coast line, between radar marker beacons, waiting for intruder aircraft to arrive from across the Channel. Preparation for this was made by sitting around from mid-afternooon until dark wearing strong sun-glasses to ensure night vision remained the best.
As soon as "bandits" were spotted by Ground Control - usually when hey were quite a long distance away, rookie pilots like me were recalled to Base, and an experienced pilot (e.g. Squadron Leader Wight-Boycott) was hastily "scrambled" and vectored to the enemy aircraft. I didn't have to endure the boring patrols too long, however. I hadn't been back on the squadron more than three or four weeks, when the news came that Bob Hessey and Iwere posted overseas, to the Middle East along with another 14 two-men crews from Church Fenton OTU, all of whom had been so expensively trained for the night fighter duties.
I have been Frank’s neighbour for the last 30 years. At 93 he is nearly 20 years older than me and his busy life puts me to shame. Expressions like “salt of the earth” or “they don’t make them like that any more” come readily to mind when you meet this gentle, ”down to earth” character . After our last chat he presented me with a jar of “award winning” marmalade which he had made. This is in spite of suffering several bouts of cancer treatment which have left him walking with a stick. Until now he has always been reluctant to talk about his war experiences for reasons which will become apparent to those who will labour through my attempt to share his story. He probably carried out only about 10 missions against the enemy and he has calculated that he only spent a total of 48 minutes exposed to enemy action. Nothing compared with navigators in Bomber Command.
However, as the original purpose of this great thread was to highlight the various wartime training schemes for the two winged aircrew, I thought it might be interesting to record rarer details of one of those trained to keep some of them on the straight and narrow, at least in the air.
If anyone is still has the will to live after the first part of the story I can go on to share his short operational life and then some of his experiences as a guest of our enemies.
Frank was born in the North East in 1921. His grandfather was a miner but his father ran a family building company and, at 18, Frank was planning with little enthusiasm to train as a surveyor as part of the business. His main source of excitement was riding his 500cc BSA Sloper motorcycle which, Frank says, was one of the first motorbikes to have a twist grip throttle. As soon as war intervened he saw a chance to do something more interesting and immediately applied to join the RAF as aircrew. With the huge influx of recruits his entry was delayed until February 1940 when he was accepted for aircrew training. He then had to give his motorbike to his brother to sell while he reported to RAF Cardington where he was kitted out with his uniform. He had never seen boots before and initially he laced them up a bit too tightly. Three days later he was sent to a boarding house in Morecambe for 3 weeks of drill along the sea front where he soon learned why his boots were too tight.
Further basic training was performed at RAF Upwood before he was sent to Prestwick for pilot training in Tiger Moths. All this training was carried out by civilian instructors employed by Scottish Aviation and his initial flying training went very well. He managed the flying quite well, thoroughly enjoyed it, and went solo after about 6 hours. After this first solo flight, his euphoria was short lived as he entered the crew room to discover a notice which informed him, and one or two others, that they were being sent to the other side of the airfield to be trained as navigators. Along with his friend George Sproates (see Post7851) their initial reaction to this was that they felt “stitched up” or “sold down the river” and they were very angry. They felt like deliberately failing the course until they realised that it meant that they would probably end up with a worse job and, once he got started, he actually found it quite interesting.
He soon learned that his navigation training was designed to fast track navigators for two seat aircraft like the Mosquito and Beaufighter and was to cover daylight flying only. Apart from ground school, Scottish Aviation used the only existing Fokker XXXVI (G AFZR) as a flying class room. This unique, four engine aircraft was drafted into the RAF from Scottish Aviation and was used as a flying classroom until it was damaged during take off in May 1941, after Frank had moved on.
They also used Ansons but, for radio training, he was posted to Yatesbury where he flew in Rapides equipped with radios “from 1918” and which were so difficult to use they “would have confused Marconi”. Fortunately, he was later given a 48 hour course on new radios which were much easier to use.
After completing his training Frank, now a Sergeant with an Observer brevet and paid a handsome 12s 6p a day , was posted to Chivenor to join 272 Sqdn.
However, as the original purpose of this great thread was to highlight the various wartime training schemes for the two winged aircrew, I thought it might be interesting to record rarer details of one of those trained to keep some of them on the straight and narrow, at least in the air.
If anyone is still has the will to live after the first part of the story I can go on to share his short operational life and then some of his experiences as a guest of our enemies.
Frank was born in the North East in 1921. His grandfather was a miner but his father ran a family building company and, at 18, Frank was planning with little enthusiasm to train as a surveyor as part of the business. His main source of excitement was riding his 500cc BSA Sloper motorcycle which, Frank says, was one of the first motorbikes to have a twist grip throttle. As soon as war intervened he saw a chance to do something more interesting and immediately applied to join the RAF as aircrew. With the huge influx of recruits his entry was delayed until February 1940 when he was accepted for aircrew training. He then had to give his motorbike to his brother to sell while he reported to RAF Cardington where he was kitted out with his uniform. He had never seen boots before and initially he laced them up a bit too tightly. Three days later he was sent to a boarding house in Morecambe for 3 weeks of drill along the sea front where he soon learned why his boots were too tight.
Further basic training was performed at RAF Upwood before he was sent to Prestwick for pilot training in Tiger Moths. All this training was carried out by civilian instructors employed by Scottish Aviation and his initial flying training went very well. He managed the flying quite well, thoroughly enjoyed it, and went solo after about 6 hours. After this first solo flight, his euphoria was short lived as he entered the crew room to discover a notice which informed him, and one or two others, that they were being sent to the other side of the airfield to be trained as navigators. Along with his friend George Sproates (see Post7851) their initial reaction to this was that they felt “stitched up” or “sold down the river” and they were very angry. They felt like deliberately failing the course until they realised that it meant that they would probably end up with a worse job and, once he got started, he actually found it quite interesting.
He soon learned that his navigation training was designed to fast track navigators for two seat aircraft like the Mosquito and Beaufighter and was to cover daylight flying only. Apart from ground school, Scottish Aviation used the only existing Fokker XXXVI (G AFZR) as a flying class room. This unique, four engine aircraft was drafted into the RAF from Scottish Aviation and was used as a flying classroom until it was damaged during take off in May 1941, after Frank had moved on.
They also used Ansons but, for radio training, he was posted to Yatesbury where he flew in Rapides equipped with radios “from 1918” and which were so difficult to use they “would have confused Marconi”. Fortunately, he was later given a 48 hour course on new radios which were much easier to use.
After completing his training Frank, now a Sergeant with an Observer brevet and paid a handsome 12s 6p a day , was posted to Chivenor to join 272 Sqdn.
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TWo items on BBC2 may be worth a look-up on iplayer:
Tonight (12th): "Celebrity Antiques Road Trip" [1900], had an early part on the Queen Victoria Hospital, East Grinstead, Sir Archibald McIndoe and the "Guinea Pigs" (and we know all about these, don't we !)
And (not relevant, but very strange) see "Immortal Egypt" [2100, 11th, lasts 59.02 min]. At 07.15 min onward, see if you see what I think I see !
Danny.
Tonight (12th): "Celebrity Antiques Road Trip" [1900], had an early part on the Queen Victoria Hospital, East Grinstead, Sir Archibald McIndoe and the "Guinea Pigs" (and we know all about these, don't we !)
And (not relevant, but very strange) see "Immortal Egypt" [2100, 11th, lasts 59.02 min]. At 07.15 min onward, see if you see what I think I see !
Danny.
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Pulse1 (your #8093),
Most certainly we have. This is what this Thread is all about ! More, More, please.
Danny.
...If anyone is still has the will to live after the first part of the story I can go on to share his short operational life and then some of his experiences as a guest of our enemies...
Danny.
Last edited by Danny42C; 12th Jan 2016 at 20:59. Reason: Error
My father completed a tour as a nav with 106 in '42, & never really talked about it. After my parents died, I came across this picture (dad on grass in white shirt) with my mother's writing on the reverse. Certainly gave me pause for thought.
Thank you all for sharing your memories.
Thank you all for sharing your memories.
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Walter (your #8092),
Must have been tough to still be on the aeroplane ! (Reminds me of the tiny Welsh Folk Dancer girl found swinging on the pitot head of our static display Spitfire at our BoB "At Home" Day at Valley in '50).
That was a bit hard ! (IMHO). How are the chaps going to learn unless you let them "have a go"? By all means bring on the ace, but let walter and his mates have a crack first ! Otherwise, what was the point of having them on patrol at all ?
Keep the stories coming !,
Cheers, Danny.
...The pitot head (a tube device that measures airspeed by means of the airflow) was stuffed with grass and earth...
...As soon as "bandits" were spotted by Ground Control - usually when they were quite a long distance away, rookie pilots like me were recalled to Base, and an experienced pilot (e.g. Squadron Leader Wight-Boycott) was hastily "scrambled" and vectored to the enemy aircraft...
Keep the stories coming !,
Cheers, Danny.
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A grave Injustice.
pulse1 (your #8093),
That would make him "Above Average" in my book, but:
That was cruel ! There ought to be a law against that sort of thing ! Not decrying Navigators in any way (some of my best friends have been Navigators !), but to let him go so far as to complete, successfully, that vital first step, and then dash his hopes of a twin wing - that really was going too far.
I think he would have kept his "Flying #rse'ole" up through thick 'n thin, and spurned the later "N" badge. His 12/6 (and you could do quite well on that in 1940 and '41 - with all paid it was "beer money", and by the time I came along it would have gone up to 13/6.
Pulse, thank you for showing me something I'd never seen or heard of before. The (one and only) Fokker XXXVI looks very useful (pity it didn't have a retractable u/c - but then neither had the DH "Dominie", and that was pressed into service as a Nav instructional aircraft). And it looks as if it would have fitted in more baby Navs even than the later Varsity.
You've got Frank firing on all cylinders now - keep him at it !
Cheers, Danny.
... He managed the flying quite well, thoroughly enjoyed it, and went solo after about 6 hours...
...After this first solo flight, his euphoria was short lived as he entered the crew room to discover a notice which informed him, and one or two others, that they were being sent to the other side of the airfield to be trained as navigators...
...After completing his training Frank, now a Sergeant with an Observer brevet and paid a handsome 12s 6p a day , was posted to Chivenor to join 272 Sqdn...
Pulse, thank you for showing me something I'd never seen or heard of before. The (one and only) Fokker XXXVI looks very useful (pity it didn't have a retractable u/c - but then neither had the DH "Dominie", and that was pressed into service as a Nav instructional aircraft). And it looks as if it would have fitted in more baby Navs even than the later Varsity.
You've got Frank firing on all cylinders now - keep him at it !
Cheers, Danny.
Apart from ground school, Scottish Aviation used the only existing Fokker XXXVI (G AFZR) as a flying class room. This unique, four engine aircraft was drafted into the RAF from Scottish Aviation and was used as a flying classroom until it was damaged during take off in May 1941, after Frank had moved on.
Pulse 1 and Danny, and Frank of course, may care to have a look at http://www.pprune.org/aviation-histo...pe-please.html if you have not already seen it.
Jack
Pulse 1 and Danny, and Frank of course, may care to have a look at http://www.pprune.org/aviation-histo...pe-please.html if you have not already seen it.
Jack
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And then there was one.....
Tim00,
An evocative photograph. But surely March is a bit chilly in these latitudes for shirt-sleeve order ? The "752" is a bit puzzling - presumably a reference number on the back of the print.
Five together (one a nav). Could they have been a Wellington crew ? (but then it is difficult to account for the varying dates of death - perhaps this relates to an earlier crew which had survived a tour, but then were dispersed and died on second tours in different crews.
There is a Thread waiting to be started about this phenomenon, and I may start it one day. I take it, for that reason, your dad has left nothing in writing which you could add to our magnificent archive here ?
Thank you for letting us see it,
Danny42C
An evocative photograph. But surely March is a bit chilly in these latitudes for shirt-sleeve order ? The "752" is a bit puzzling - presumably a reference number on the back of the print.
Five together (one a nav). Could they have been a Wellington crew ? (but then it is difficult to account for the varying dates of death - perhaps this relates to an earlier crew which had survived a tour, but then were dispersed and died on second tours in different crews.
... & never really talked about it...
Thank you for letting us see it,
Danny42C
Some trainee directional consultants learning the black art of their craft in a Fokker XVIII:
But had any of them any idea of their actual position?
But had any of them any idea of their actual position?
