Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II
Perhaps the bomb bay had air and ground crews luggage and tools for moving to another base? The bomb aimer would be the most unpopular member of the crew if he fiddled with his switches!
mmitch.
mmitch.
Danny,
An interesting choice of car to transport you safely into the uncertain world of civilian life. Given that your beloved Peugeot 504 avec Coupleur Jaeger could not be replaced in kind, your move to a rival manufacturer (albeit still French) displays an open mindedness not always present in decisions concerning vehicle purchase.
Wikki is very positive in its description of the Renault 16, including this fulsome endorsement attributed to a certain Mr Stirling Moss:-
Renault 16 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
and here it is in all its glory:-
An interesting choice of car to transport you safely into the uncertain world of civilian life. Given that your beloved Peugeot 504 avec Coupleur Jaeger could not be replaced in kind, your move to a rival manufacturer (albeit still French) displays an open mindedness not always present in decisions concerning vehicle purchase.
Wikki is very positive in its description of the Renault 16, including this fulsome endorsement attributed to a certain Mr Stirling Moss:-
"There is no doubt that the Renault 16 is the most intelligently engineered automobile I have ever encountered and I think that each British motorcar manufacturer would do well to purchase one just to see how it is put together"
and here it is in all its glory:-
Didn't half roll on corners though, but VERY comfortable seats. Brilliant concept - Wikipedia mentions the Maxi as a "successor to the principles of the R16, but Maxi did not come close, and THAT gear change!
still see R16s (and R4s, 2CVs, Citroen DSs, etc) on the road in France
still see R16s (and R4s, 2CVs, Citroen DSs, etc) on the road in France
Last edited by Wander00; 20th Sep 2014 at 13:32. Reason: Forgot "close bracket"!)
Somebody was telling me a story about the manufacture of those. During the assembly on a moving production line two operatives had eight seconds to connect all the electrics in the engine compartment. There were each on a swinging stool either side and they would whirl in, connect everything and then whirl out. There then would be a pause before the next car came along.
Every thirty minutes two others would come along and take over.
Why they didn't arrange it so that they moved along with the line defeats me.
Every thirty minutes two others would come along and take over.
Why they didn't arrange it so that they moved along with the line defeats me.
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Ta, ever so !
thing,
You are far too kind, Sir ! This has been my enjoyable hobby these past two years: if it has also given interest and pleasure to you and others, I am grateful for that and accept it as a bonus, (always conscious of the fact that I "stand on the shoulders of Giants !") - cliff, regle, Fred and all the other pioneers of this incomparable Thread.
Thank you again, God bless, Danny.
PS: You wouldn't have bought or rented your property from one Anthony Aloysius Hancock, by any chance ? D.
You are far too kind, Sir ! This has been my enjoyable hobby these past two years: if it has also given interest and pleasure to you and others, I am grateful for that and accept it as a bonus, (always conscious of the fact that I "stand on the shoulders of Giants !") - cliff, regle, Fred and all the other pioneers of this incomparable Thread.
Thank you again, God bless, Danny.
PS: You wouldn't have bought or rented your property from one Anthony Aloysius Hancock, by any chance ? D.
Wandered00
"Wikipedia mentions the Maxi as a "successor to the principles of the R16, but Maxi did not come close, and THAT gear change!"
Some Maxi's had gearbox problems, but not ours. One feature I appreciated was the "Overdrive 5th Gear" a feature that wasn't to become common until later, this made the car brilliantly quiet (and economical) when cruising the Autobahns. Plus the back seat folded down to make a double bed - kids loved it!
My BFG registered Maxi c. 1973 near the San Bernardino pass in Switzerland on the way to Italy.
"Wikipedia mentions the Maxi as a "successor to the principles of the R16, but Maxi did not come close, and THAT gear change!"
Some Maxi's had gearbox problems, but not ours. One feature I appreciated was the "Overdrive 5th Gear" a feature that wasn't to become common until later, this made the car brilliantly quiet (and economical) when cruising the Autobahns. Plus the back seat folded down to make a double bed - kids loved it!
My BFG registered Maxi c. 1973 near the San Bernardino pass in Switzerland on the way to Italy.
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Bomb Bays.
mmitch,
The bomb bay was useful for all sorts of things (the long members of Danny's air-transportable charpoy for example), and the (inadvertent) squashing of one unfortunate Major's uniform case (compassionate lift (Chittagong to Calcutta). But as our erks were loading it with engine runnihg (so 2000 lb/sq.in in the system) and were pushing it in with sticks (for fear of what that could do to an arm), it was hard luck when the jaws closed with it trapped between them. (Should've insured his kit, anyway).
(Oh, and carrying 2x500lb bombs from time to time).
Danny.
The bomb bay was useful for all sorts of things (the long members of Danny's air-transportable charpoy for example), and the (inadvertent) squashing of one unfortunate Major's uniform case (compassionate lift (Chittagong to Calcutta). But as our erks were loading it with engine runnihg (so 2000 lb/sq.in in the system) and were pushing it in with sticks (for fear of what that could do to an arm), it was hard luck when the jaws closed with it trapped between them. (Should've insured his kit, anyway).
(Oh, and carrying 2x500lb bombs from time to time).
Danny.
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Renault 16 TL ('72)
Wander00,
Went round all right, though. All the French cars of that era did the same. Nice soft suspension (torsion bars all round). Not like present car (can feel matchstick on road if I go over it).
Never drove a Maxi, but my daughter had an 1100 at one time. Quelle horreur ! Gearstick like stick of liquorice ! Hopped about like a pogo-stick (car, that is). She got a Micra after it, nice little car.
Ŕ votre santé, Monsieur, Danny.
Went round all right, though. All the French cars of that era did the same. Nice soft suspension (torsion bars all round). Not like present car (can feel matchstick on road if I go over it).
Never drove a Maxi, but my daughter had an 1100 at one time. Quelle horreur ! Gearstick like stick of liquorice ! Hopped about like a pogo-stick (car, that is). She got a Micra after it, nice little car.
Ŕ votre santé, Monsieur, Danny.
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Renault 16 TL auto ('72).
Chugalug,
Sadly, a 504 auto (@ Ł2000) was too pricey (UK prices now !) for me. Looked briefly at an almost-new one (year old) @ Ł1500. Rust was forming at the bottom of the sills !
I remember Moss's review of the 16. IIRC, he also said (of the seats): "I defy anyone to be uncomfortable in this car". Another critic wrote of the 16 auto: "A small Rolls-Royce for half the price".
It was (AFAIK) the first hatchback (and the best I've known). The engineering concept was brilliant. Pity I got a lundi-morning or a vendredi-afternoon car from Billancourt. I suppose they said: "We should've chucked it in the Seine, really. But it's going to Perfide Albion isn't it ? Magnifique, ça ! Bonne Chance, Rosbif !"
So I got Boneparte's Revenge. I'll say no more (it is not nice to see grown men weep). Lovely photo, "Rogue" car.
Cheers, Danny
Sadly, a 504 auto (@ Ł2000) was too pricey (UK prices now !) for me. Looked briefly at an almost-new one (year old) @ Ł1500. Rust was forming at the bottom of the sills !
I remember Moss's review of the 16. IIRC, he also said (of the seats): "I defy anyone to be uncomfortable in this car". Another critic wrote of the 16 auto: "A small Rolls-Royce for half the price".
It was (AFAIK) the first hatchback (and the best I've known). The engineering concept was brilliant. Pity I got a lundi-morning or a vendredi-afternoon car from Billancourt. I suppose they said: "We should've chucked it in the Seine, really. But it's going to Perfide Albion isn't it ? Magnifique, ça ! Bonne Chance, Rosbif !"
So I got Boneparte's Revenge. I'll say no more (it is not nice to see grown men weep). Lovely photo, "Rogue" car.
Cheers, Danny
Danny in belated response to your question re the Spey and noise in the 70s. It didn't power the noisiest subsonic aircraft at that time but it probably caused the most disruption although not with the BAC 1-11 but with the three in the Trident 1.
Whilst the 1-11 had a better climb rate than the Trident with all engines operating it was the lack of understanding of perceived decibels, minimum Noise Routings and flying procedures that caused the most disruption.
I fortunately didn't fly the original Trident 1C which was quickly re-engined because it couldn't get airborne at MTOW from Heathrow on a summer's day. The re-engined one was hardly any better, was aptly named the "Gripper" as in "Ground Gripper" and was rumoured to get airborne because of the curvature of the earth.
The NAR at LHR were avoiding the built up areas but paid no attention to the environmental noise levels.
I lived on the edge of the Slough and Maidenhead built up areas, on the Burnham/Taplow boundary..... Open spaces and just where a heavy Trident 1 would be setting climb power on a Daventry departure. The windows would shake, waves were set up in wine glasses and conversation was impossible.
It was the only aircraft that disturbed us as BEA management had a dangerous and ridiculous flying procedure.
At beginning of roll we started stop watches...and between 65 and 90 seconds we retracted trailing edge flaps and pulled back the levers to 70% thrust.
With the result that we staggered along on the back side of the drag curve spreading slightly less DBs far and wide.
At 3000ft we set climb power...around Crawfords biscuit factory on the Maidenhead road and just down the road from my semi. We then flew nearly level, at 225 knots retracted the droop and accelerated to climb speed.
If we had left the flaps at TO, set climb power, routed along the M4/A4, over Slough and it's industrial estates then less people would have been exposed to the noise nuisance and a Trident would have probably never been parked in a field at Staines!
Whilst the 1-11 had a better climb rate than the Trident with all engines operating it was the lack of understanding of perceived decibels, minimum Noise Routings and flying procedures that caused the most disruption.
I fortunately didn't fly the original Trident 1C which was quickly re-engined because it couldn't get airborne at MTOW from Heathrow on a summer's day. The re-engined one was hardly any better, was aptly named the "Gripper" as in "Ground Gripper" and was rumoured to get airborne because of the curvature of the earth.
The NAR at LHR were avoiding the built up areas but paid no attention to the environmental noise levels.
I lived on the edge of the Slough and Maidenhead built up areas, on the Burnham/Taplow boundary..... Open spaces and just where a heavy Trident 1 would be setting climb power on a Daventry departure. The windows would shake, waves were set up in wine glasses and conversation was impossible.
It was the only aircraft that disturbed us as BEA management had a dangerous and ridiculous flying procedure.
At beginning of roll we started stop watches...and between 65 and 90 seconds we retracted trailing edge flaps and pulled back the levers to 70% thrust.
With the result that we staggered along on the back side of the drag curve spreading slightly less DBs far and wide.
At 3000ft we set climb power...around Crawfords biscuit factory on the Maidenhead road and just down the road from my semi. We then flew nearly level, at 225 knots retracted the droop and accelerated to climb speed.
If we had left the flaps at TO, set climb power, routed along the M4/A4, over Slough and it's industrial estates then less people would have been exposed to the noise nuisance and a Trident would have probably never been parked in a field at Staines!
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Noisy Tridents...
I grew up in Kew, under the Heathrow approach. We lived at just that point on the approach where the Tridents would lower the undercarriage...and the autothrottle would compensate for the added drag...and we got the benefit of the added noise! My neighbour and school chum went off to Hamble and thence to BEA and Tridents....a few years later I was at Linton on Ouse and JPs.
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a lundi-morning or a vendredi-afternoon car from Billancourt
For using the curvature of the Earth to assist a take off you can't beat the old TU 154. They've all gone now but in the Nineties there were a lot flying the routes in China. The only time I flew in one, apart from the almost Victorian décor, was half the overhead locker fronts were missing; something I was used to as it was the same on YAK 40s, no spares.
At Wenzhou our patch was close to the single runway turning area. A 154's undercarriage mainwheels were three wheels in tandem and the screeching and howling from the tyres as they turned it coupled with the visible twisting of the undercarriage bogies was some thing to be experienced.
Noise abatement? forget it; Clean Air Act? forget it; there would be a cloud of decibels and smoke trundling down the runway and when you thought disaster was certain the wings would claw sufficient lift to get it off the ground. Immediate altitude was obtained by raising the undercarriage and the whole show would then disappear behind the trees to reappear in the distant horizon leaving behind a trail of asphyxiated pigs.
They finished at the end of the last century. The last major accident was when one had an autopilot rectification and was released to service without a functional check. The rudder and ailerons actuators had been cross coupled so the aircraft rolled into the ground immediately after take off taking a hundred or so with it. Murphy's Law was widespread in Soviet designed aircraft and after that Chinese aviation went over to Western products. I believe China North West was the last to use them and at Tianjin airport I could see half-a-dozen ex Aeroflot examples that were being used as Xmas trees.
Lots of rumours about Chinese aviation in the eighties and nineties; none of them true. If an aircraft crashed and there were no foreigners on board they just bulldozed over the hole. If an air trafficker caused an accident they would take him round to the back of the tower and shoot him.
At the turn of the century CAAC read the Riot Act to all the Chinese airlines and things improved beyond recognition. Now Chinese Aviation is amongst the safest in the world and I am proud that I was part of that transformation.
At Wenzhou our patch was close to the single runway turning area. A 154's undercarriage mainwheels were three wheels in tandem and the screeching and howling from the tyres as they turned it coupled with the visible twisting of the undercarriage bogies was some thing to be experienced.
Noise abatement? forget it; Clean Air Act? forget it; there would be a cloud of decibels and smoke trundling down the runway and when you thought disaster was certain the wings would claw sufficient lift to get it off the ground. Immediate altitude was obtained by raising the undercarriage and the whole show would then disappear behind the trees to reappear in the distant horizon leaving behind a trail of asphyxiated pigs.
They finished at the end of the last century. The last major accident was when one had an autopilot rectification and was released to service without a functional check. The rudder and ailerons actuators had been cross coupled so the aircraft rolled into the ground immediately after take off taking a hundred or so with it. Murphy's Law was widespread in Soviet designed aircraft and after that Chinese aviation went over to Western products. I believe China North West was the last to use them and at Tianjin airport I could see half-a-dozen ex Aeroflot examples that were being used as Xmas trees.
Lots of rumours about Chinese aviation in the eighties and nineties; none of them true. If an aircraft crashed and there were no foreigners on board they just bulldozed over the hole. If an air trafficker caused an accident they would take him round to the back of the tower and shoot him.
At the turn of the century CAAC read the Riot Act to all the Chinese airlines and things improved beyond recognition. Now Chinese Aviation is amongst the safest in the world and I am proud that I was part of that transformation.
Last edited by Fareastdriver; 21st Sep 2014 at 20:59.
Molemot....
Ahhh the good old stabilised approach ...from ten miles out.
It was erroneously believed in 1972 that you had to have everything hanging out by 3000ft and at final approach speed to safely land a swept wing jet by BEA.
There was an infamous chief who slammed one in on a flight with some prestegious guests....himself...of greek ancestry ...slammed open the cockpit door and was preported to say "if you are looking for your Trident it's up my ar@e".
Later in my career I was taught to land a jet from an approach which was stabilised at 300ft and not deploy the oxygen masks ;-)
Ahhh the good old stabilised approach ...from ten miles out.
It was erroneously believed in 1972 that you had to have everything hanging out by 3000ft and at final approach speed to safely land a swept wing jet by BEA.
There was an infamous chief who slammed one in on a flight with some prestegious guests....himself...of greek ancestry ...slammed open the cockpit door and was preported to say "if you are looking for your Trident it's up my ar@e".
Later in my career I was taught to land a jet from an approach which was stabilised at 300ft and not deploy the oxygen masks ;-)
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Other types than the Trident dropped gear and flaps abeam Richmond Green, as I could see (and hear) clearly from my bedroom window overlooking Old Deer Park. After a few years I stopped noticing.
Then I had the JPs at Manby doing circuits over the Mess whilst I was trying to sleep after [late] night flying at Strubby. I have disliked JPs ever since ��
Then I had the JPs at Manby doing circuits over the Mess whilst I was trying to sleep after [late] night flying at Strubby. I have disliked JPs ever since ��
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I flew a 1-11 475 freighter which was on contract to DHL flying parcels at night - approx. 0330 local take off - from Brussels to Stockholm. Usually departures were from 25R with a climbing right turn to head off on as straight a track as possible to Sweden. Anything up to 40 aircraft would depart in the period 0300 - 0500 but most were turboprops and our two RR Speys were the noisiest of all. The good burghers of Brussels had an early wakeup call and were not amused. However one night for some reason there was a delay in departures from the 25 holding point and our crew, as they left the ramp requested 07 for departure which was approved. A couple of days later it came to light that a special portable noise monitoring device had been positioned on our normal departure route to catch us out and purely by chance we had foiled their evil plan. We heard no more noise complaints!
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Gaining an RAF pilots brevet in WW2
I note recent mention of 617.
March 1945 after Grading School I was sent on detachment to Woodhall Spa.This was nomal due to the surfeit of trained aircrew and the resulting "constipation" of the training system.
I recall nothing of what work I did there . Some on these detachments were used as helpers in bomb dumps. I do have recollection though of Lancasters arriving back and landing after an aborted raid ,with their Grand Slams very prominent due to removal of the bomb bay doors.
I did manage to get one passenger flight in a Lancaster on a practice bomb drop in The Wash.I amused myself in tbe mid upper turret until the Sqdn Leader captain voiced a complaint.My swinging of the turret---airflow disturbance?---according to him had adversely affected his bombing accuracy
When we landed I did not stick around to discuss!
Certainly in Canada most of the training stations had been gradually closed before VJ day.In the US I believe it was similar or perhaps worse since I have read of either in 44 or early 45 a group in Florida being addressed by a visiting senior officer and their training ceased at that time.Again I think this all relates to Churchill being upset at the number of surplus aircrew around late 1944.
By October 45 Bircham Newton and Docking were replete with ex u/t, sfrom Canada, the US and Rhodesia.
D
March 1945 after Grading School I was sent on detachment to Woodhall Spa.This was nomal due to the surfeit of trained aircrew and the resulting "constipation" of the training system.
I recall nothing of what work I did there . Some on these detachments were used as helpers in bomb dumps. I do have recollection though of Lancasters arriving back and landing after an aborted raid ,with their Grand Slams very prominent due to removal of the bomb bay doors.
I did manage to get one passenger flight in a Lancaster on a practice bomb drop in The Wash.I amused myself in tbe mid upper turret until the Sqdn Leader captain voiced a complaint.My swinging of the turret---airflow disturbance?---according to him had adversely affected his bombing accuracy
When we landed I did not stick around to discuss!
Certainly in Canada most of the training stations had been gradually closed before VJ day.In the US I believe it was similar or perhaps worse since I have read of either in 44 or early 45 a group in Florida being addressed by a visiting senior officer and their training ceased at that time.Again I think this all relates to Churchill being upset at the number of surplus aircrew around late 1944.
By October 45 Bircham Newton and Docking were replete with ex u/t, sfrom Canada, the US and Rhodesia.
D