Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II
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Blondes
YARPY . YES people did see us off at railway stations. Below is a pic of Ponca City 'Railroad station' Have printed it before ,but think it disappeared, and was replaced by a notice "removed by Photobucket"
. Found out later, remove photos from Photobucket and they won't show on PPRUNE.
Bill Davies and me posing.
Ancientaviator I will do my best to complete, and thanks for the encouragement. Nice to know you are helping an 'old un'
I noticed in the Heaton Park welcome booklet. we were paid,when an A.C 2 3s (three shillings) a day. Think I have said earlier 3/6 (three shillings and sixpence)a day. Probably wouldn't buy a packet of Capstan Full Strength and two pints of ale. That might be why we drank Devonshire sweet cider, it was cheaper.
. Found out later, remove photos from Photobucket and they won't show on PPRUNE.
Bill Davies and me posing.
Ancientaviator I will do my best to complete, and thanks for the encouragement. Nice to know you are helping an 'old un'
I noticed in the Heaton Park welcome booklet. we were paid,when an A.C 2 3s (three shillings) a day. Think I have said earlier 3/6 (three shillings and sixpence)a day. Probably wouldn't buy a packet of Capstan Full Strength and two pints of ale. That might be why we drank Devonshire sweet cider, it was cheaper.
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getting a pilot's brevet in WW2
Further to Heaton Park. Most of us were billetted with families in the local area who were paid a pittance. Ken Stott who was in the same form at school with me and who volunteered with me , we stayed together for a year. He returned to Canada and became a Navigator and was on ops before I returned from Texas. ( Our pay, after ITW and "promotion" to LAC was 7/3 per day less national insurance. When we got our Wings, pay as Sergeants was 13/6, after a year we became Flt. Sgts at 15/- and a further year Warrant Officer at 17/6 ) I remember that the food at Heaton Park was very good, or maybe we were hungry. Anyway Ken and I very regularly bought fish and chips for our Mrs Kenderdine and her son who was an apprentice at Avro's. The film people made a film called "Journey Together" at HP and because it was a fine summer we had to parade in our gas capes and be watered with fire hoses. Ormeside?bravolima!!
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Reg - Snaith crew photo
Reg,
Second try to upload crew photo. I know its a long shot that you may be able to identify any of these chaps but you never know. Doug is first from left. Photo was taken sometime between July '43 and Dec '43.
Best Regards
Rodger
Update September 2010
Jack O'Dowda is first from left in the photo. Doug not in this photo - not Doug's crew. A few more posts down identifies the crew.
Second try to upload crew photo. I know its a long shot that you may be able to identify any of these chaps but you never know. Doug is first from left. Photo was taken sometime between July '43 and Dec '43.
Best Regards
Rodger
Update September 2010
Jack O'Dowda is first from left in the photo. Doug not in this photo - not Doug's crew. A few more posts down identifies the crew.
Last edited by rmventuri; 13th Sep 2010 at 22:27. Reason: Correction
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rmventuri re photo uploads look at: http://www.pprune.org/spectators-bal...une-guide.html
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Busy, Busy, Busy
BUSY, BUSY, BUSY. , and the number of jobs awaiting ,increases daily.
Yep, busy, had my 1971 Beetle M.O.T. d last week , it passed.. Now have M.O.T for my beach buggy on Thursday. Talk about pre-flight checks.
Having said that, it reminds me of GOOSEQUILL’S post saying the checking of the portable oxy bottles was the duty of the pilot and flight engineer, and wonder why my visit to the Elsan, and problem with my oxy supply wasn’t discussed at great length on our return. I am sure it was decided the mistake had been made by our usually highly respected members of the ‘ubendum ,we mendum‘ fraternity.. Consequently I will search for my notes on pre-flight checks as I know I have made mistakes but don’t think this was one of them. (my old aunt Kate, always said “The man who never made a mistake,, never made nowt “ ..
Before I start my search GOOSEQUILL , I think the question on the unstoppable Merlin was a hypothetical one , for if the crew entered the aircraft forgetting to set the ground to flight switch to flight, then apart from other things no lights , intercom ,or radios would work, and on start up I think the ‘erk’ on the ‘trolley accs’ would notice the difference, as our four twelve volt batteries would not be helping. Pity I didn’t think of that at the time , might have received more marks.
I have now found the notes on pre-flight check, which I will reproduce below. Think they exonerate the accused your honour. For instance the notes do say check the oxy bottles and fire axes, but no instructions to check pressure. I think we were instructed to check that they were present, with no reference to pressure. Any ideas REGLE.? However , later notes do say , check pressure of emergency air, and press: of nitro system. You may see below that item 12 states F/E switches on ground to flight switch, on entry.
PAUSE TO BREW MUG OF TEA, AND LIGHT PIPE.
ANCIENTAVIATOR. (That’s a misnomer ’ thoos nowt but a lad’) Would you ask your flight engineer friend how long his course lasted, our P.F.E course was two months , concentrated, but think he would have to spend much more time on learning to map read, swim , life save, learn to fly straight and level, air to air gunnery, and air to ground gunnery. Where did he get training to fly a Lanc straight and level ?
Now for a laugh, in an otherwise miserable world ‘YOU are going to be a PILOT.’
PHEW !!!!
Yep, busy, had my 1971 Beetle M.O.T. d last week , it passed.. Now have M.O.T for my beach buggy on Thursday. Talk about pre-flight checks.
Having said that, it reminds me of GOOSEQUILL’S post saying the checking of the portable oxy bottles was the duty of the pilot and flight engineer, and wonder why my visit to the Elsan, and problem with my oxy supply wasn’t discussed at great length on our return. I am sure it was decided the mistake had been made by our usually highly respected members of the ‘ubendum ,we mendum‘ fraternity.. Consequently I will search for my notes on pre-flight checks as I know I have made mistakes but don’t think this was one of them. (my old aunt Kate, always said “The man who never made a mistake,, never made nowt “ ..
Before I start my search GOOSEQUILL , I think the question on the unstoppable Merlin was a hypothetical one , for if the crew entered the aircraft forgetting to set the ground to flight switch to flight, then apart from other things no lights , intercom ,or radios would work, and on start up I think the ‘erk’ on the ‘trolley accs’ would notice the difference, as our four twelve volt batteries would not be helping. Pity I didn’t think of that at the time , might have received more marks.
I have now found the notes on pre-flight check, which I will reproduce below. Think they exonerate the accused your honour. For instance the notes do say check the oxy bottles and fire axes, but no instructions to check pressure. I think we were instructed to check that they were present, with no reference to pressure. Any ideas REGLE.? However , later notes do say , check pressure of emergency air, and press: of nitro system. You may see below that item 12 states F/E switches on ground to flight switch, on entry.
PAUSE TO BREW MUG OF TEA, AND LIGHT PIPE.
ANCIENTAVIATOR. (That’s a misnomer ’ thoos nowt but a lad’) Would you ask your flight engineer friend how long his course lasted, our P.F.E course was two months , concentrated, but think he would have to spend much more time on learning to map read, swim , life save, learn to fly straight and level, air to air gunnery, and air to ground gunnery. Where did he get training to fly a Lanc straight and level ?
Now for a laugh, in an otherwise miserable world ‘YOU are going to be a PILOT.’
PHEW !!!!
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Rmventuri
Are you using Photobucket to post pics? If so, P.M me.There are some instructions on use which I think require clarifying, there is a button to click which will show you your pic, before you post.
Cliff.
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Snaith Squadron 51 Crew Photo
Another try to upload - thanks to those sending tips. Crew photo taken between july 4 '43 (I now have the snaith ops log showing Doug was stationed at Snatih in July '43) and dec 4 '43
Update September 2010
pbeach joined the thread (see post 1848) and was able to identify the crew as his grandfather was one of them. Photo below taken at Snaith now known to be JN883 LK-A flight group C. Crew from left to right Jack O'Dowda (UG) RCAF, Ernie Herrald (P) RAF, Bill Higgs (E) RAF, Dick Sibley RAF (RG), Tom Jones RAF (N), Alf Kell RAF (B) and Stan Gibbon RAF (W)
Doug and Jack met while training at B&G School in Mossbank in 1942. They must have been good friends as Doug's photo album has several pictures of Jack while they were at Mossbank.
Update September 2010
pbeach joined the thread (see post 1848) and was able to identify the crew as his grandfather was one of them. Photo below taken at Snaith now known to be JN883 LK-A flight group C. Crew from left to right Jack O'Dowda (UG) RCAF, Ernie Herrald (P) RAF, Bill Higgs (E) RAF, Dick Sibley RAF (RG), Tom Jones RAF (N), Alf Kell RAF (B) and Stan Gibbon RAF (W)
Doug and Jack met while training at B&G School in Mossbank in 1942. They must have been good friends as Doug's photo album has several pictures of Jack while they were at Mossbank.
Last edited by rmventuri; 13th Sep 2010 at 22:14. Reason: Correction
cliffnemo,
the 'ancientaviator' tag was given to me by my grandson after he read the poem about the 'Ancient Mariner'. From his perspective I am ancient, but as Einstein said 'it is all relative'. I will speak to the ex F/E as soon as I can and get back to you.
Keep the info coming.
Best wishes
the 'ancientaviator' tag was given to me by my grandson after he read the poem about the 'Ancient Mariner'. From his perspective I am ancient, but as Einstein said 'it is all relative'. I will speak to the ex F/E as soon as I can and get back to you.
Keep the info coming.
Best wishes
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Photobucket.
HI RMVENTURI,
Perfect picture, perfect size, but don't delete from photobucket, or it will be replaced on pprune by a box saying removed by photobucket. I learned the hard way , as you may see on some of my previous posts.
Perfect picture, perfect size, but don't delete from photobucket, or it will be replaced on pprune by a box saying removed by photobucket. I learned the hard way , as you may see on some of my previous posts.
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venturi Bingo !
BINGO ! Good picture and the second chap from the left is definitely Flt/Lt. "Ernie", R. Herrald who was deputy Flight Commander of "C" Flight, 51 SQdn at Snaith under S/Ldr. "Charlie Porter during my stay there at Snaith July '43-Jan.44. He survived the war but died a few years ago as did Charlie Porter, It is quite possible that it was not his crew and that he was flying Second Dicky but not very. He was a Scot and a very good chap. Contact with the 51 Sqdn. Association (Try them c/o RAF Waddington, Lincs.) might bring further details from someone. At least you have a name to go on with. Best of luck. PS That must have been Ernie's crew as there are only seven of them. I have his signature, in my logbook, as deputy flight commander for my Sept. '43 monthly summary. Hopefully you can go on from here, Regle.
Last edited by regle; 19th May 2009 at 13:37. Reason: Further thoughts.
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Bingo again for rmventuri
Incredibly today I was rummaging through my old RAF documents and I found an old ,battered and very fragile "Battle Order" from Nov.19th. 1943 for 51 Sqdn. It is the only one that I have ever saved and was from the list of crews designated to take part in Operations for that night and was posted on all Mess Notice Boards when the Squadron Commander had received the details of the night's target from Group...4 Group in 51's case. This one was from the Sgts. Mess although I don't know how I got it as I was already commissioned by then.
I was amazed when I found that your Uncle's crew was included ,rmventuri, and was ; Capt.P/O A.J.Salvage,P/O Baker etc. just as you gave them all in your request. I also have all their numbers if you require them. Your Uncle was listed as R139843 F/Sgt.D. Milliken R/G , the R showing that he was RCAF. There was an extra number to the crew in a Sgt. R:J Beaver who was , unusually, listed as 2nd. Pilot. This was very uncommon but was sometimes done when a new Pilot joined the Squadron to give him a bit of a clue as to what was going on. As a tribute to your Uncle's crew I can tell you that , usually only a very good crew were selected when this was done to give the "Sprog" a better chance.
I am on the same Battle order and also, Sqdn. Ldr. Eno who was the subject of a previous thread in this fine Forum that we are fortunate to share.
The target that night was Leverkusen which was a real "bete noir" in Bomber Command's history as we had been to the town in the "Happy Valley" of the Ruhr a few times and had never really found it as it was always 10/10th. cloud (8/8ths came later) and it never got really bombed. Leverkusen was the site of a famous Chemical Factory IM or something like that... IFM ? and is fairly near Cologne.. This one was not to be any better as my report reads "Bombed on ETA & scattered T.I.'s (PFF Target Indicators). 10/10ths. cloud. Very heavy Flak in area and very heavy predicted Flak going out over Cologne (Why did we go over Cologne.. God knows). Much difficulty getting U/C down at base , 6hrs55mins all night flying. (It came back to me when I checked this letter...IG Farben was the well known Factory)
I am sure that your Uncle and I shared the hostile skies together many times so that gives us a common factor which I appreciate. If you give me your address by private mail I will gladly send you a copy of the Battle Order which ,although fragile, is quite legible. I hope to get cracking with some more stories soon.... We are certainly getting something to do and to think about these days what with Cliff's terrific drawings and "gen" and those evocative RAF propaganda leaflets or booklets which were not at all bad with a lovely lack of official jargonese and some very true assertions. Keep 'em coming and it helps immeasureably,when you comment or ask questions as it gives one the personal touch which has, for example , been brought out in the replies to your queries, rm, All the best ,Regle.
.
I was amazed when I found that your Uncle's crew was included ,rmventuri, and was ; Capt.P/O A.J.Salvage,P/O Baker etc. just as you gave them all in your request. I also have all their numbers if you require them. Your Uncle was listed as R139843 F/Sgt.D. Milliken R/G , the R showing that he was RCAF. There was an extra number to the crew in a Sgt. R:J Beaver who was , unusually, listed as 2nd. Pilot. This was very uncommon but was sometimes done when a new Pilot joined the Squadron to give him a bit of a clue as to what was going on. As a tribute to your Uncle's crew I can tell you that , usually only a very good crew were selected when this was done to give the "Sprog" a better chance.
I am on the same Battle order and also, Sqdn. Ldr. Eno who was the subject of a previous thread in this fine Forum that we are fortunate to share.
The target that night was Leverkusen which was a real "bete noir" in Bomber Command's history as we had been to the town in the "Happy Valley" of the Ruhr a few times and had never really found it as it was always 10/10th. cloud (8/8ths came later) and it never got really bombed. Leverkusen was the site of a famous Chemical Factory IM or something like that... IFM ? and is fairly near Cologne.. This one was not to be any better as my report reads "Bombed on ETA & scattered T.I.'s (PFF Target Indicators). 10/10ths. cloud. Very heavy Flak in area and very heavy predicted Flak going out over Cologne (Why did we go over Cologne.. God knows). Much difficulty getting U/C down at base , 6hrs55mins all night flying. (It came back to me when I checked this letter...IG Farben was the well known Factory)
I am sure that your Uncle and I shared the hostile skies together many times so that gives us a common factor which I appreciate. If you give me your address by private mail I will gladly send you a copy of the Battle Order which ,although fragile, is quite legible. I hope to get cracking with some more stories soon.... We are certainly getting something to do and to think about these days what with Cliff's terrific drawings and "gen" and those evocative RAF propaganda leaflets or booklets which were not at all bad with a lovely lack of official jargonese and some very true assertions. Keep 'em coming and it helps immeasureably,when you comment or ask questions as it gives one the personal touch which has, for example , been brought out in the replies to your queries, rm, All the best ,Regle.
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Bingo!
Reg, what an incredible find! Yes I would very much like a copy of the Battle Order - I left you my address via pm. Reg, looks like you have confirmed what we thought re the photo not being the crew of HR732. Because information can be so sketchy going back more than sixty fives years I am trying to pull together at least two or three data points on any important piece of information - Now we know Ernie Herrald in the photo, HR732 Sgt William Hamilton is not in the photo, HR732 Edwards (3rd from left - I don't have the crew list in on this computer so don't remember first name) is in the photo. Still waiting for some of the other crew descendants to see if they can ID any of these chaps. With this information I'm going to review the Snaith ops logs to see if I can get the crew names. I'm waiting on another crew photo that my mother has to post in the near future.
There were several other pictures taken during that same photo op. One pic has four chaps in front of the seven air crew. Would the four be the ground crew dedicated to the maintenance/repair of the aircraft? I'm curious how large a bomber squadron was - from pics on the internet I am estimating about 200-250 crew, with seven flight crew and four ground crew that would mean somewhere around 20 to 25 bomber aircraft in the squadron. I guess if mosquitoes were in the same squadron the number would go up. Does that make sense?
Best regards,
Rodger
There were several other pictures taken during that same photo op. One pic has four chaps in front of the seven air crew. Would the four be the ground crew dedicated to the maintenance/repair of the aircraft? I'm curious how large a bomber squadron was - from pics on the internet I am estimating about 200-250 crew, with seven flight crew and four ground crew that would mean somewhere around 20 to 25 bomber aircraft in the squadron. I guess if mosquitoes were in the same squadron the number would go up. Does that make sense?
Best regards,
Rodger
Last edited by rmventuri; 20th May 2009 at 05:03.
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Doug's Service File
Forgot to add that I did receive Doug's file from the Canadian Library and Archives - 207 pages of which about 40 are duplicates. They also said there were photographs in the file I need to separately order (does anyone know what these would be?). I have not gone thru in detail however looks like there is no information to help find a crash or burial site. Reg, it does contain the MIA crew list with their services numbers - so I do have that thanks. I was surprised it only took three weeks to get this file from the gov't - lots of interesting stuff in the file - they kept a lot of detail each of you (big brother is watching). Who knows what was filtered out - no mention of the A. Salvage wedding ring. If anyone is interested in the file contents let me know and I'll post a summary and few scanned documents that might be of interest. Cheers Rodger
Last edited by rmventuri; 20th May 2009 at 05:01.
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Snaith '43
Reg,
Attaching another photo with "high level moustaches" as I call them or posssible senior ground crew personal? Was this entire photo shoot a photo op? I went thru the Snaith ops logs and could not see Doug flying with a Pilot Herrald (although I did see Herrand and his crew - none of which overlapped with HR732). I'm guessing the four younger chaps are the ground crew aircraft support? The plot thickens.
What kind of car is that?
Attaching another photo with "high level moustaches" as I call them or posssible senior ground crew personal? Was this entire photo shoot a photo op? I went thru the Snaith ops logs and could not see Doug flying with a Pilot Herrald (although I did see Herrand and his crew - none of which overlapped with HR732). I'm guessing the four younger chaps are the ground crew aircraft support? The plot thickens.
What kind of car is that?
Last edited by rmventuri; 20th May 2009 at 07:49.
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rmventuri
I have posted your copies today. I had to make it two crews less due to length of Battle Order but the top crew and reverse were both illegible. As I was flying that night , with the Flight Commander , S/Ldr. Charlie Porter, replacing my own Bomb Aimer, Ernie Herrald , as his Deputy, would not fly as well so did not figure in the Battle Order. This is interesting from the thread point of view as it shows the practice of the Pilot being the Captain, irrespective of rank and I flew , several times, ith S/Ldrs. and equivalent in my crew when I was not even commissioned. I have never heard of any time when this became a problem but I still think that the crew spirit could not be maintained on the ground due to the segregation of ranks in their various Messes and , above all, their sleeping Quarters. It was against regulations to mix ranks in Pubs etc. but was rarely, if ever, observed on Operational Stations.
If you look closely at the photo of the ground crew you will see that the 3rd. from the left has the three stripes of a Sgt., the last on the extreme right has , just visible, the two stripes of a corporal, and the capless one kneeling, has a propellor of a L.A.C. (LeadingAircraftsman).
The others, despite their obviously older age, have no insignia, so would be A.C's and there you have a complete Ground crew of an Aircraft comprising Riggers, Fitters, etc. The Armourers and Electricians etc. would be called upon seperately when needed but the Ground Crew would be responsible for the servicing and D.I's(Daily Inspections) of their own ..and sacred to them..."Kites".
I hope that this is of interest to you all, Regle
If you look closely at the photo of the ground crew you will see that the 3rd. from the left has the three stripes of a Sgt., the last on the extreme right has , just visible, the two stripes of a corporal, and the capless one kneeling, has a propellor of a L.A.C. (LeadingAircraftsman).
The others, despite their obviously older age, have no insignia, so would be A.C's and there you have a complete Ground crew of an Aircraft comprising Riggers, Fitters, etc. The Armourers and Electricians etc. would be called upon seperately when needed but the Ground Crew would be responsible for the servicing and D.I's(Daily Inspections) of their own ..and sacred to them..."Kites".
I hope that this is of interest to you all, Regle
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Which car ?
Airborne artist, You forestalled me by about 15mins. I am sure that you are right. I owned a Ruby Saloon of that "ilk". (Ask Grandad)! It cost me £45 with a full tank of "Ethyl" thrown in ! That took a lot of earning at 13 and 6d, per diem. 20 shillings to the pound, 12 pence to the shilling. How did we cope with the Maths.? Very well ! Regle
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I owned a Ruby Saloon