Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II
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MPN11 (#12058),
There's a War on ! - all the more reason that: "The Labourer is worthy of his hire".
Must admit, we live in modest comfort with four pensions (between self and daughter). The country can't afford it for long - but "Après moi le déluge !"
Sorry about you lot, Danny.
There's a War on ! - all the more reason that: "The Labourer is worthy of his hire".
Must admit, we live in modest comfort with four pensions (between self and daughter). The country can't afford it for long - but "Après moi le déluge !"
Sorry about you lot, Danny.
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I could find no more in the file of official letters mentioning 42A. or any other courses. re hazing There was another series of letters which detail the cost of the Arnold scheme. Originally the Americans wanted $50 Million, made up by 10 for Personnel costs, pay, maintenance & transportation. 32.5 cost of elementary training for 720000 hrs of flying at $45 per hr. 7 for fuel & oil at SFTS, & 1.3 PAA Nav training at Miami. We queried that the Scheme had not applied the Lease/Lend Act and that if something called HR1776 was used the cost reduced to 10 for Personnel, Elementary 7.2 at 10$ per hr, 0 for Fuel, & 0.9 for Nav. Final sentence of the letter to the UK Ministers is we must accept the scheme even if the cost is not below $20 Million.
The thickest File of the four I have seen deals with the official presentation plaques, and letters of thanks to all those who were involved in the Scheme both military & civil.
The thickest File of the four I have seen deals with the official presentation plaques, and letters of thanks to all those who were involved in the Scheme both military & civil.
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And with the USA in the ‘cat bird seat’ and UK up against the stops, there was no doubt it was a seller’s market! As indeed the US did over everything associated with Lend-Lease.
I’m not sure, looking back though a telecope of years, that I don’t think the US were a bunch of opportunist sh*ts.
I’m not sure, looking back though a telecope of years, that I don’t think the US were a bunch of opportunist sh*ts.
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Dsrsia,
You mean we had to PAY for the "Arnold" Scheme !!!! ........ Reminds me of Churchill's reply when the Egyptian Government (reputedly) wanted compensation for the damage caused by the 8th Army: "I will not pay for admission to the Battlefield !"
You mean we had to PAY for the "Arnold" Scheme !!!! ........ Reminds me of Churchill's reply when the Egyptian Government (reputedly) wanted compensation for the damage caused by the 8th Army: "I will not pay for admission to the Battlefield !"
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Danny,
File AIR2/7063 at PRO. Letter dated 22 Apr 1941 states '' Cost of Scheme about $50 Million in a full year on the basis outlined in Arnold offer. '' At this stage Arnold had not yet had approval on his offer of the training facilities ( Not sure if this is our approval or American) Letter continues that we felt that Lease & Lend Act would offer us lower costs e.g not have top pay for fuel & oil. If the Lease & Lend Act applied to the Arnold Scheme on the same basis as intended to apply to the six schools scheme then the cost would reduce to $18 M. Letter goes on to suggest that by using the US Air Training Scheme this would reduce the need to increase facilities in Canadaand that would allow us to spend money on purchasing food & munitions from Canada. Seems nothing was on the house.
File AIR2/7063 at PRO. Letter dated 22 Apr 1941 states '' Cost of Scheme about $50 Million in a full year on the basis outlined in Arnold offer. '' At this stage Arnold had not yet had approval on his offer of the training facilities ( Not sure if this is our approval or American) Letter continues that we felt that Lease & Lend Act would offer us lower costs e.g not have top pay for fuel & oil. If the Lease & Lend Act applied to the Arnold Scheme on the same basis as intended to apply to the six schools scheme then the cost would reduce to $18 M. Letter goes on to suggest that by using the US Air Training Scheme this would reduce the need to increase facilities in Canadaand that would allow us to spend money on purchasing food & munitions from Canada. Seems nothing was on the house.
Well, for one, without the Arnold Scheme, we wouldn't have Danny at the controls now, nor would Bomber Command have had the manpower for the heavy bomber fleet of Stirlings, Halifax and Lancasters.
We'd therefore have had to concentrate on twins such as the Mosquito and perhaps other less capable aircraft.
All of which would have meant less pressure on the German homeland, freeing up men and munitions to wreak havoc elsewhere instead of being pinned within Fortress Europe an the Fatherland.
That may have cost us the Victory, which was bought at a huge price in sacrifice and cost.
Had the Marshall Plan been used to assist the UK and our Allies first, and with Reparations being fully paid, the UK would no doubt have thought (as we still do) that the Arnold Scheme was part of the price of Victory. That cost ought to have been recouped from the Axis Powers to ensure the UK was restored to its pre War standing and capability.. But the politicians didn't and as a consequence we are still trying to be a World Class Power on a shoe string and feral youths roaming around killing and maiming. Perhaps a source of manpower for the Armed Forces - to train them with discipline and morl standards as well as challenging their intellect.
But in 10 years time the RAF fleet will simply be unmanned drones commanded by corpulent 14 year olds on their keypads, sticky with McD's offerings.
We'd therefore have had to concentrate on twins such as the Mosquito and perhaps other less capable aircraft.
All of which would have meant less pressure on the German homeland, freeing up men and munitions to wreak havoc elsewhere instead of being pinned within Fortress Europe an the Fatherland.
That may have cost us the Victory, which was bought at a huge price in sacrifice and cost.
Had the Marshall Plan been used to assist the UK and our Allies first, and with Reparations being fully paid, the UK would no doubt have thought (as we still do) that the Arnold Scheme was part of the price of Victory. That cost ought to have been recouped from the Axis Powers to ensure the UK was restored to its pre War standing and capability.. But the politicians didn't and as a consequence we are still trying to be a World Class Power on a shoe string and feral youths roaming around killing and maiming. Perhaps a source of manpower for the Armed Forces - to train them with discipline and morl standards as well as challenging their intellect.
But in 10 years time the RAF fleet will simply be unmanned drones commanded by corpulent 14 year olds on their keypads, sticky with McD's offerings.
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At the risk of being seen to be promoting the 'Jet Blast' discussion about lend lease, I do not for one minute accept that the UK's current economic woes arise from war reparations. To put the cost of the war in context (some $1.3 trillion in current money) the impact on the UK of the Global Financial Crisis a decade ago was, in 2010, assessed at up to £7.4 trillion in lost growth by the Bank of England.
Last edited by roving; 20th May 2018 at 17:34. Reason: amended
Roving
Up to now I've enjoyed your posts, but please leave EU/Brexit comments for other threads.
I'm pretty sure that on this, the best thread on PPRuNe, there is an unwritten rule that discussion about Brexit is not allowed in our cyber-crew room.
Up to now I've enjoyed your posts, but please leave EU/Brexit comments for other threads.
I'm pretty sure that on this, the best thread on PPRuNe, there is an unwritten rule that discussion about Brexit is not allowed in our cyber-crew room.
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I must admit to misgivings about that part of my post and will amend it accordingly.
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In our Cyber Crewroom, we’re surely still bombing bits of Europe and the Orient? 
Agreed that we should try to keep ‘current’ politics out of here, though. Scares the dogs and frightens the horses, don’t ya know! There’s enough ‘historic’ politics to chew over.
All meant kindly, with no reference to any individual.
Agreed that we should try to keep ‘current’ politics out of here, though. Scares the dogs and frightens the horses, don’t ya know! There’s enough ‘historic’ politics to chew over.
All meant kindly, with no reference to any individual.
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To make amends part of the full IWM video of the 2017 Duxford air show showing a pair of Spitfires performing aerobatics.
And see this one for nine of them at the same show.
For those with two hours to spare, the full show. This year's show will again focus on WWII aircraft.
And see this one for nine of them at the same show.
For those with two hours to spare, the full show. This year's show will again focus on WWII aircraft.
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In yesterday's Telegraph the Obituary for Group Captain Caryl Gordon, the Duke of Edinburgh's flying instructor. He passed away on March 27th aged 94.
In common with others who contribute here, he qualified as a pilot during the War in Canada
In common with others who contribute here, he qualified as a pilot during the War in Canada
Telegraph Obituaries
22 MAY 2018 • 5:57PM
Group Captain Caryl Gordon, who has died aged 94, was an RAF flying instructor who taught the Duke of Edinburgh to fly.
Gordon was instructing at the Central Flying School when he moved to White Waltham to join the Queen’s Flight, which had been allocated two Chipmunk and two Harvard training aircraft for the Duke’s training. After a few hours, the Duke flew solo on the Chipmunk on December 20 1952. The Chief of the Air Staff, Marshal of the RAF Sir William Dickson presented him with his wings on May 8 1953.
Gordon remained the Duke’s personal instructor for the next two years, which included flying twin-engined training aircraft before the Duke took delivery of a de Havilland Heron as his personal aircraft. At the end of 1955, when Gordon left his royal appointment he was appointed MVO, later upgraded to LVO.
The son of a former Indian Army cavalry officer, Caryl Ramsay Gordon was born at Cheltenham on July 9 1923. He was educated at Cheltenham College and joined the RAF in December 1942.
After completing his training in Canada, he returned to England in early 1945 to discover that there was a surplus of pilots. He was trained to tow gliders, but was too late to take part in the last major airborne operation, the Rhine crossing, and he became a second pilot on the Stirling and Halifax with No 51 Squadron.
The four-engine bomber had been converted to carry troops and Gordon flew many long-distance trooping flights to the Middle East and to India.
He trained as a flying instructor at the Central Flying School (CFS) before spending two years as the personal staff officer to the Air Officer Commanding No 23 (Training) Group. After a year training pilots at the RAF College Cranwell, he returned in March 1951 to CFS as an instructor on the Meteor jet.
He became the leader of the “Meteorites”, the school’s aerobatic team. Among the manoeuvres he perfected was a unique looping sequence during which he flew inverted while the other members, in close formation, completed the loop in the normal manner.
A photograph of the formation was used for their Christmas card. During his time at CFS, Gordon was twice awarded the Queen’s Commendation for Valuable Service in the Air.
Upon leaving his royal duties, Gordon returned to operational flying as a night fighter pilot and flight commander on No 33 Squadron equipped with the Venom.
After a period at the RAF Staff College and then in Germany, he converted to the delta-wing Javelin and returned to command No 33 Squadron. A few months later he moved to RAF Geilenkirchen in Germany in command of another Javelin squadron, No 5 Squadron.
As a group captain he served at HQ Strike Command before being appointed in 1971 as the Air Attaché in Argentina, with additional responsibility for Uruguay and Paraguay, carrying out his duties in fluent Spanish.
He returned to Britain in December 1973 and his last appointment before retiring was at the RAF College Cranwell.
For two years Gordon worked for the security services and lived in Balcombe Street, Marylebone. On December 6 1975 members of the IRA took over the flat next door with hostages before a six-day stand off with the Metropolitan Police using Gordon’s flat. At the end of the siege it was redecorated at no cost to him.
Gordon was a member of Foston Fishing Club from 1964 and rode with the Holderness, where he was hunt secretary from 1983 to 1991. He especially enjoyed driving his Jaguar XK 140.
Caryl Gordon married his wife Gill in August 1958. She and their son and daughter survive him.
Group Captain Caryl Gordon, July 9 1923, died March 27 2018
22 MAY 2018 • 5:57PM
Group Captain Caryl Gordon, who has died aged 94, was an RAF flying instructor who taught the Duke of Edinburgh to fly.
Gordon was instructing at the Central Flying School when he moved to White Waltham to join the Queen’s Flight, which had been allocated two Chipmunk and two Harvard training aircraft for the Duke’s training. After a few hours, the Duke flew solo on the Chipmunk on December 20 1952. The Chief of the Air Staff, Marshal of the RAF Sir William Dickson presented him with his wings on May 8 1953.
Gordon remained the Duke’s personal instructor for the next two years, which included flying twin-engined training aircraft before the Duke took delivery of a de Havilland Heron as his personal aircraft. At the end of 1955, when Gordon left his royal appointment he was appointed MVO, later upgraded to LVO.
The son of a former Indian Army cavalry officer, Caryl Ramsay Gordon was born at Cheltenham on July 9 1923. He was educated at Cheltenham College and joined the RAF in December 1942.
After completing his training in Canada, he returned to England in early 1945 to discover that there was a surplus of pilots. He was trained to tow gliders, but was too late to take part in the last major airborne operation, the Rhine crossing, and he became a second pilot on the Stirling and Halifax with No 51 Squadron.
The four-engine bomber had been converted to carry troops and Gordon flew many long-distance trooping flights to the Middle East and to India.
He trained as a flying instructor at the Central Flying School (CFS) before spending two years as the personal staff officer to the Air Officer Commanding No 23 (Training) Group. After a year training pilots at the RAF College Cranwell, he returned in March 1951 to CFS as an instructor on the Meteor jet.
He became the leader of the “Meteorites”, the school’s aerobatic team. Among the manoeuvres he perfected was a unique looping sequence during which he flew inverted while the other members, in close formation, completed the loop in the normal manner.
A photograph of the formation was used for their Christmas card. During his time at CFS, Gordon was twice awarded the Queen’s Commendation for Valuable Service in the Air.
Upon leaving his royal duties, Gordon returned to operational flying as a night fighter pilot and flight commander on No 33 Squadron equipped with the Venom.
After a period at the RAF Staff College and then in Germany, he converted to the delta-wing Javelin and returned to command No 33 Squadron. A few months later he moved to RAF Geilenkirchen in Germany in command of another Javelin squadron, No 5 Squadron.
As a group captain he served at HQ Strike Command before being appointed in 1971 as the Air Attaché in Argentina, with additional responsibility for Uruguay and Paraguay, carrying out his duties in fluent Spanish.
He returned to Britain in December 1973 and his last appointment before retiring was at the RAF College Cranwell.
For two years Gordon worked for the security services and lived in Balcombe Street, Marylebone. On December 6 1975 members of the IRA took over the flat next door with hostages before a six-day stand off with the Metropolitan Police using Gordon’s flat. At the end of the siege it was redecorated at no cost to him.
Gordon was a member of Foston Fishing Club from 1964 and rode with the Holderness, where he was hunt secretary from 1983 to 1991. He especially enjoyed driving his Jaguar XK 140.
Caryl Gordon married his wife Gill in August 1958. She and their son and daughter survive him.
Group Captain Caryl Gordon, July 9 1923, died March 27 2018
For those who are interested in the History of World War II I have found the Battlefield series on youtube. It starts with France and ends with the surrender by the Japanese. It covers everything including Guadacanal and the Russian invasion of Manchuria.
The first series is
and then it progresses to the Battle of Britain etc..
They last nearly two hours each. A tip is when you start on is to attached it to your favourites list on Internet Explorer. This enables you to stop it mid way by closing your browser if you are required to do something else and on return selecting it as a favourite will restart it where you left off. This means you don't have to scroll though half of it. When it reaches the end of an episode it will roll on to the next.
It can be a bit lecturistic but it covers the nitty gritty that entertainment programs find too difficult.
I found it fascinating with an incredible amount of footage that I had not seen before.
PPRuNe has planted the video on my post. The best way to see it is to go to youtube direct so you can add it to your favourites.
Copy and paste 'https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbKYbLUkIpk'
The first series is
They last nearly two hours each. A tip is when you start on is to attached it to your favourites list on Internet Explorer. This enables you to stop it mid way by closing your browser if you are required to do something else and on return selecting it as a favourite will restart it where you left off. This means you don't have to scroll though half of it. When it reaches the end of an episode it will roll on to the next.
It can be a bit lecturistic but it covers the nitty gritty that entertainment programs find too difficult.
I found it fascinating with an incredible amount of footage that I had not seen before.
PPRuNe has planted the video on my post. The best way to see it is to go to youtube direct so you can add it to your favourites.
Copy and paste 'https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbKYbLUkIpk'
Last edited by Fareastdriver; 26th May 2018 at 09:48.
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Great ... that will give me something to watch instead of bloody football
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Grands Prix, peut etre?
thanks for the heads up ... a bleak weekend of TV indeed. I shall have to go on holiday again (Arizona wef 4 June ) where their TV channels are .... ummm ... forget all that!
thanks for the heads up ... a bleak weekend of TV indeed. I shall have to go on holiday again (Arizona wef 4 June
) where their TV channels are .... ummm ... forget all that!