Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Military Aviation
Reload this Page >

Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II

Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II

Old 14th Dec 2018, 08:37
  #12561 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Herefordshire
Posts: 992
Chugalug,

Co-pilots did do a solo on the very early Herc' courses - discussed at length on the 'Global Aviation - 60 years of the Hercules' thread - look at the posts around No. 4500.

Regards B48N
Brian 48nav is offline  
Old 14th Dec 2018, 17:15
  #12562 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Fairford, Glos
Age: 95
Posts: 151
Yes Geriaviator, I would not dispute the Hastings' rugged build quality and indeed the only in-flight accident due to structural failure I can think of occurred late in its life and was due to failure of an elevator hinge bracket. Up to about 1960, when there was a radical (and long overdue) review of some of the exercises required by the continuation training syllabus, accurate performance of steep turns was a prime requirement despite the caution in Pilots' Notes specifying ".........manoeuvres appropriate to a transport aircraft". In the Mk 1 particularly such handling resulted in some pretty positive 'g' being applied, and one does wonder if this contributed to a gradual build-up of fatigue in the affected components.
harrym is offline  
Old 14th Dec 2018, 18:02
  #12563 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: West Sussex
Age: 77
Posts: 4,144
Thanks for the info Brian48nav. Sounds very disorientating, having to switch seats from the one you are learning!
My Herc flying started August 68 and I heard no mention of Herc CPS. Learning the LHS was quite sufficient thanks. Switching seats would have led to needless complication, in my view. I imagine that much the same conclusion was reached at the time.
Pity though, and well done those Co's who scored P1 time on those early Herc courses.
Chugalug2 is offline  
Old 14th Dec 2018, 18:36
  #12564 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Stoke-on-Trent
Age: 87
Posts: 366
harrym

Your post #12565, would that be Hastings TG602, temporarily based at RAF Fayid, on 12th Jan 1953? I understand it was doing an air-test after some tech ;problem. It was carrying (possibly) a number of Paratroops to give them air experience.
ValMORNA is offline  
Old 14th Dec 2018, 19:20
  #12565 (permalink)  
ICM
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Bishops Stortford, UK
Age: 78
Posts: 401
Copilot Solo was also in vogue in the Argosy force in 1966, when I started, but I've no recollection of any such sortie from around mid-67, when I guess it must have been phased out across the MRT force.

But back to WW2 and the Halifax. The Handley Page history by C H Barnes covers Halifax fin development in detail, and mentions "rudder stalling which caused spiral instability with two engines dead on one side and had led to many crashes on final approach at night." Pretty much as Franek mentioned, above. Several shapes were investigated and that finally used on later Mk IIs and production Mk IIIs had a fin area some 50% larger than on early aircraft.
ICM is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2018, 07:50
  #12566 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 4,600
The Hastings elevator failure was TG577 on 6th July 1965.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Baldon_air_crash
Fareastdriver is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2018, 17:07
  #12567 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: East Sussex
Posts: 438
Thanks to Danny42C we all know a lot more about that strange Vultee Vengeance and now this appears....
https://www.pen-and-sword.co.uk/The-...rdback/p/15263
There have been previous books, so is this a rehash or new material?
Icare9 is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2018, 18:30
  #12568 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Stoke-on-Trent
Age: 87
Posts: 366
harrym:

Ref my 12567, ASN report on TG602 states, Quote:

The Hastings transport plane climbed away in steep turns after takeoff. At a height of about 2000 feet the starboard elevator broke away, followed by the port elevator and the tailplane. The aircraft lost control and crashed into the ground.
Investigation revealed that a certain modification which included the installation of increased diameter bolts in the tail section had not been carried out on TG602.
ValMORNA is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2018, 19:42
  #12569 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: THE BLUEBIRD CAFE
Posts: 60
Them plane makers must have taken the old dictum "simplicate and add more lightness" a bit too far.
Fantome is offline  
Old 16th Dec 2018, 14:02
  #12570 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Fairford, Glos
Age: 95
Posts: 151
No ValMORNA , I was referring to the July 1965 accident as quoted in Fareastdriver's # 12658. I had forgotten about TG 602 which anyway appears to have been due to an incorrectly installed mod, for near simultaneous loss of both elevators would unlikely to have been be the result of fatigue - as was definitely the case with TG 577.
harrym is offline  
Old 16th Dec 2018, 14:25
  #12571 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Co. Down
Age: 78
Posts: 503
Icare9:
Danny mentioned earlier this year that a new edition of Peter Smith's Vengeance book was being produced. I think he provided some material and corrections. Presumably this is the second edition.
Geriaviator is offline  
Old 21st Dec 2018, 11:28
  #12572 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Co. Down
Age: 78
Posts: 503


Leisure activity at RAF Khormaksar in 1951 included swimming from the one-mile beach on the east side of the peninsula, forbidden due to the risks from shark, sting ray, sea snake and/or sting rays, or turning the tables and attacking the wildlife instead. Airmen from my father's section hooked this unfortunate sting ray beside the salt pans north of the airfield. Found this old pic in attic junk ... The beach is now a tourist attraction with sunbeds etc. but I'm not sure that one could enjoy a relaxing holiday there.
Geriaviator is offline  
Old 21st Dec 2018, 20:12
  #12573 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: London
Posts: 147
Obituary for Sqn Ldr John M'Kenzie-Hall in today's Telegraph here, but behind a pay wall. He was almost a contemporary of Danny, a couple of years younger, trained in the US and posted as a flying instructor to No1 British Flying Training School at Terrell Air Force Base in Texas. He returned to Britain in July 1944, transferred to the Fleet Air Arm, flying Hellcat fighters with 891 Squadron. He was demobilised in 1947, rejoining the RAF a year later as a flying instructor before transferring to helicopters. He flew with 194 Squadron in Malaya, managing 16 flights in 7 hours in August 1954. He was conducting trials in Cyprus in 1956 when instructed to prepare to fly on to aircraft carriers. He flew the first wave of Royal Marines in the Suez invasion. The following year he set up the helicopter section of the Queen's Flight and commanded it for the next seven years. I'm sure he would have had some interesting stories.
topgas is offline  
Old 25th Dec 2018, 03:39
  #12574 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: THE BLUEBIRD CAFE
Posts: 60
Talk of flying Hastings and Hercs single pilot reminds me of one day at Perth (W.A.) Airport in early 1965 when an Ace Air Freighters 749 Constellation pulled up on a very quiet freight apron. After shutting down, the front door opened. Then a character, who put me in mind of how I imagined 'Screwball' Beurling was in his heyday, let down a light collapsible ladder. After shutting the door he descended the ladder and set off with a battered leather bag slung over his shoulder in the direction of the cab rank. In those days I was a rather shy and retiring, wet behind the ears sprog commercial pilot, flying a clapped out Cessna 182 for an earth-moving outfit, whereas if it were today, I would not hesitate to attempt to engage him in conversation.

Last edited by Fantome; 25th Dec 2018 at 03:57.
Fantome is offline  
Old 25th Dec 2018, 03:55
  #12575 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: THE BLUEBIRD CAFE
Posts: 60
JENKINS at #12538 -
Pretty sure that I may have divined the classical bent in the posts of the 42C. His school, judging from notes we exchanged, was Saint Joseph's College Blackpool. 'Joe's Jailhouse,' as once broadcast on Radio Luxembourg, with the broadcast leading to expulsions from the Roman Catholic establishment I am told.
Maybe that is why Danny/Dennis did not like his given name 'Joseph'. This he mentioned once to me in a PM.
Fantome is offline  
Old 25th Dec 2018, 08:32
  #12576 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: West Sussex
Age: 77
Posts: 4,144
A Merry Christmas to all the occupants of our trusty old Nissan hut crew room. Drawn together by those who have gone before, we now treasure their memories and give thanks for the technology, in stark contrast to the rusty paint-peeled corrugated iron and mismatched battered armchairs, that enabled them to tell their individual stories of those dangerous years now receding so fast into history. Just as they could recall those years with such amazing clarity, so we will always remember them.

Fantome, the same Ace Freighters Connie (or perhaps its sister) was immobilised on the Changi Western Dispersal for some weeks, with the cowling of the #2(?) engine removed and various bits of the engine removed. Evidently the replacement bits were on order but days passed and none came. The seasonal rains in the meantime gradually washed off the Ace of Spades insignia from the fins, revealing an Aer Lingus Shamrock beneath. In the end the various parts that had been removed were replaced, the engines started, and trailing copious amounts of oily smoke from the said engine she taxied past our Sqn HQ to the Rwy 20 holding point, a brief runup and mag check, line up and then take off. As soon as it was airborne that prop was feathered and the engine shut down, the a/c setting heading for its next destination (Madras I think). Just another day at the office...
Chugalug2 is offline  
Old 25th Dec 2018, 09:02
  #12577 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Herefordshire
Posts: 992
Merry Christmas all. I, and many others I guess, will raise a glass in memory of Danny later today.
Brian 48nav is offline  
Old 25th Dec 2018, 11:06
  #12578 (permalink)  
ICM
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Bishops Stortford, UK
Age: 78
Posts: 401
I don't know if it was an Ace Freighters aircraft, but there was a tale around when I got to Khormaksar in September 1966 about a charter Connie that had been shutting down engines as it came down the Red Sea sometime in the previous year, and was nearing the end of its tether as Aden hoved into view. The hydraulics must also have been affected as a wheels-up landing was inevitable. The pilot was said to have been aware that the Company was on its uppers, with its future depending on keeping this airframe serviceable so, on final approach, any remaining engines were feathered with the props motored to minimise damage on impact. He landed on the sand by the runway, satisfied he'd done all he could ...... until the intervention of the RAF fire crew who attacked the fuselage with axes to get the crew out from this stricken aircraft.

I've often wondered how true that story was, but I offer it anyway in the spirit of Christmas!
ICM is offline  
Old 26th Dec 2018, 07:47
  #12579 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Somewhere flat
Posts: 106
A link I noticed in the Telegraph regarding a WW2 Lancaster crewman. [Blenheim shown in the video]......https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...elet-74-years/
goofer3 is offline  
Old 26th Dec 2018, 08:16
  #12580 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: West Sussex
Age: 77
Posts: 4,144
goofer3, thanks for the link, the relevant part reading: -

Sergeant Frederic Harold Habgood, the plane’s bomber, was betrayed by a local woman to the Gestapo. On July 31 he was taken to the nearby Natzweiler-Struthof concentration camp and immediately hanged. He was 21 years old.
That was how the Gestapo worked (and indeed how any authoritarian regime's secret police works). Relatively few of them could rely upon an army of co-operative sympathisers or compromised informers to provide them with their information. Settling old scores alone accounted for many 'enemies of the people'. Certainly kept Klaus Barbie busy for instance.

The same system was ready to go into immediate operation in the UK following a successful Operation Sea Lion...
Chugalug2 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.