Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II
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MPN11 (#11997),
Fine body of men - none finer than the second left front row! Looks serious - well he might, he was to commit matrimony at end of course. .....Compare and contrast with the haggard creature at Leeming 14 years later !
M/Nav Ponti-Piccolomini was later commissioned. With him in Germany: he had two OMQs as he had 14 children and a wooden leg! Had been in the bomb-aimer's position in a Boston (?) when the chap formating on them put a wing tip into his glasshouse. - nasty.
Thanks for the pic, Danny.
Fine body of men - none finer than the second left front row! Looks serious - well he might, he was to commit matrimony at end of course. .....Compare and contrast with the haggard creature at Leeming 14 years later !
M/Nav Ponti-Piccolomini was later commissioned. With him in Germany: he had two OMQs as he had 14 children and a wooden leg! Had been in the bomb-aimer's position in a Boston (?) when the chap formating on them put a wing tip into his glasshouse. - nasty.
Thanks for the pic, Danny.
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Danny, he has a steely eye about him. 
Our lovely Stn Cdr at Tengah had numerous children, but seemed to cope (AFAIK) with one MQ. At social events at 'his place' one was assailed by very small people at knee level offering canapés ... how sweet was that? And what good training for their assorted futures?
Gp Capt Peter Latham, of fond memory, and his numerous (6-8?) children.
(Who's Who seems to suggest 2 sons and 6 daughters. Do pilots never sleep?)
Our lovely Stn Cdr at Tengah had numerous children, but seemed to cope (AFAIK) with one MQ. At social events at 'his place' one was assailed by very small people at knee level offering canapés ... how sweet was that? And what good training for their assorted futures?
Gp Capt Peter Latham, of fond memory, and his numerous (6-8?) children.
(Who's Who seems to suggest 2 sons and 6 daughters. Do pilots never sleep?)
Did anyone know Master Nav Warrior, who transferred to Air Traffic. Father of longstanding friend
Last edited by Wander00; 4th May 2018 at 10:02. Reason: This "new" TSB style change AGAIN dropped part of what I had typed
Thanks to MPN11 for his excellent and informative blog on the treatment of prostate cancer, one of the many illnesses that were never discussed in our younger days. As my 77th approaches next month, all my body bits have shrunk except this badly designed component which has become grossly enlarged, though fortunately benign so far. This enlargement restricts the surrounding plumbing, resulting in frequent visits.
Most of us have learned that three times a night when you're 25 means something quite different when you turn 75. (The nice thing is that you forget what was different.) Men can be placed on medication to relax the bladder muscles and make life more comfortable, although one side effect for me is a dripping nose, of course much easier to manage than the previous leaks at lower level.
Joking apart, let's all be more aware, and whether you're aviator or penguin, ex-Service or civvy like myself, please don't ignore problems when you pee (or try to). Help is there for the asking. Our best wishes to MPN11 for his continued recovery.
Most of us have learned that three times a night when you're 25 means something quite different when you turn 75. (The nice thing is that you forget what was different.) Men can be placed on medication to relax the bladder muscles and make life more comfortable, although one side effect for me is a dripping nose, of course much easier to manage than the previous leaks at lower level.
Joking apart, let's all be more aware, and whether you're aviator or penguin, ex-Service or civvy like myself, please don't ignore problems when you pee (or try to). Help is there for the asking. Our best wishes to MPN11 for his continued recovery.
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Woo ... I have started a mega thread deviation here!!
Thank you, Sir. “Everyone” goes on about breast cancer, but our chaps’ problems have tended to be denied until very recently. I guess my motivation for going public was to encourage blokes to actually GET TESTED ... I don’t know why we are genetically inclined to avoid going to the Doc, but it doesn’t do you any good at all!
As to the side effects ... certainly I now find my nocturnal totters to the loo are decidedly less frequent, but actually worth the journey, so something’s going right. Tamsulosin (one a day) seems to help too. However, I’ll be glad when the side-effects of the Girlie Pills subside ... the fatigue is rather tiresome, to say the least.
And now we should return to normal PPRuNe programming!!
Thank you, Sir. “Everyone” goes on about breast cancer, but our chaps’ problems have tended to be denied until very recently. I guess my motivation for going public was to encourage blokes to actually GET TESTED ... I don’t know why we are genetically inclined to avoid going to the Doc, but it doesn’t do you any good at all!
As to the side effects ... certainly I now find my nocturnal totters to the loo are decidedly less frequent, but actually worth the journey, so something’s going right. Tamsulosin (one a day) seems to help too. However, I’ll be glad when the side-effects of the Girlie Pills subside ... the fatigue is rather tiresome, to say the least.
And now we should return to normal PPRuNe programming!!
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Geriaviator (#12006),
Same trouble, had it hacked out, complete success. Kept alive by eight tablets per day of six different kinds plus three inhalers. Feel quite guilty when I see all the boxes, and think of what this is costing the taxpayer. Then think of the Income Tax I'm paying - and feel a lot better !
Danny.
Same trouble, had it hacked out, complete success. Kept alive by eight tablets per day of six different kinds plus three inhalers. Feel quite guilty when I see all the boxes, and think of what this is costing the taxpayer. Then think of the Income Tax I'm paying - and feel a lot better !
Danny.
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I have recently read 2 books on the formation of 6 Group-one was a semi official diary, the other was the experiences of a pilot assigned to 6 Group. ( 6 Group was the RCAF,s contribution to Bomber Command, in addition of RCAF aircrew who served within RAF squadrons.
In both books, the initial condition of the aircraft were lamented, in particular those airframes relegated to training. In it the pilot observed that he felt many crews were needlessly lost due to the poor mechanical condition of the aircraft. He himself experienced 2 complete engine failures, and was successful in coping; over, however were not.
I am fortunate to have Dads log book, and going through it a few things stand out;
Ansons seem to have given little problems, either in Canada or the UK
Fairy Battles and Bollingbroks seemed to suffer from frequent turret issues, resulting in several flights being incomplete.
All flights on Whitleys appear to be without issues
Halifaxes at HCU seemed relatively problem free, except for recurring issues with oxygen systems, and Gee systems ( rather had to do a GEE stooge with a u/s system)
Training on Lancasters prior to being posted to front line squadron being rather short, just over 10 hours.
At Kirmington, the only major mechanical problem they experienced was the double engine failure I had mention in a previous post; starboard outer caught fire just prior to lift off, and starboard inner failed and caught fire about 40 minutes later. No other problems resulted in operational issues,
Dad did mention that the condition of front line aircraft did vary greatly amongst the squadron, that the sprog crews were assigned what Dad would call the ' the old war horses' These were airframes with some hours on them, as well as battle damage. These were fully repaired, but Dads major observation was that they were, well, a bit clapped out and just wouldn't climb fully loaded
This begs the question, does anyone have any idea what the criteria would have been to remove an airframe from front line service and relegate it to a training role?
Thanks
Jeff
In both books, the initial condition of the aircraft were lamented, in particular those airframes relegated to training. In it the pilot observed that he felt many crews were needlessly lost due to the poor mechanical condition of the aircraft. He himself experienced 2 complete engine failures, and was successful in coping; over, however were not.
I am fortunate to have Dads log book, and going through it a few things stand out;
Ansons seem to have given little problems, either in Canada or the UK
Fairy Battles and Bollingbroks seemed to suffer from frequent turret issues, resulting in several flights being incomplete.
All flights on Whitleys appear to be without issues
Halifaxes at HCU seemed relatively problem free, except for recurring issues with oxygen systems, and Gee systems ( rather had to do a GEE stooge with a u/s system)
Training on Lancasters prior to being posted to front line squadron being rather short, just over 10 hours.
At Kirmington, the only major mechanical problem they experienced was the double engine failure I had mention in a previous post; starboard outer caught fire just prior to lift off, and starboard inner failed and caught fire about 40 minutes later. No other problems resulted in operational issues,
Dad did mention that the condition of front line aircraft did vary greatly amongst the squadron, that the sprog crews were assigned what Dad would call the ' the old war horses' These were airframes with some hours on them, as well as battle damage. These were fully repaired, but Dads major observation was that they were, well, a bit clapped out and just wouldn't climb fully loaded
This begs the question, does anyone have any idea what the criteria would have been to remove an airframe from front line service and relegate it to a training role?
Thanks
Jeff
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Danny42C ... I'm sure you've paid enough into the pot to cover the cost!
Now, serious question. What did they do about taxing your pay during WW2 ... the Arnold Scheme in the US, or when you were serving/fighting in India? Did HMG just deduct at source before letting you have the remains? Likewise National Insurance, of course.
Now, serious question. What did they do about taxing your pay during WW2 ... the Arnold Scheme in the US, or when you were serving/fighting in India? Did HMG just deduct at source before letting you have the remains? Likewise National Insurance, of course.
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jeffb ... I have no idea, but I suspect one consideration would b the supply of new aircraft to replace attrition losses on the front line. It would be a bold CO who said "We're not flying this one on Ops any more" unless he had a very strong case.
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MPlN11 (#12010),
In those days, the average working man's weekly wage did not reach £3 pw until the war. Income tax was not levied on such small amounts: you had to be "posh" (ie professional type) to have an income high enough to be taxed. National Insurance was paid by a weekly NI stamp on your Card. From memory I think it was 1/10d pw, of which the employee only had the 10p deducted from his wages.
As LACs (5/6d a day, £1/18/6 pw) we paid no tax, the RAF presumably paid the NI. At $4.08/£. that would work out as a dollar a day. in the States, that was what we were paid. (An American Cadet on the same Course was paid seven times as much).
In India, as a Sgt/Pilot on 13/6 a day, we were only paid by the RAF the rough rupee equivalent of our £4/18/6 pw , about Rs60 pw after deductions, as I remember. Commissioned, it was a whole new ballpark: you were now paid by the Government of India on a much more generous scale - a P/ O was on Rs500 pm (about £36 pm); a F/O on Rs600 and a Flt Lt on Rs700 pm. They would not dream of taxing a British officer of the Raj !
That was fine - but you caught a cold when you got home !
Danny.
In those days, the average working man's weekly wage did not reach £3 pw until the war. Income tax was not levied on such small amounts: you had to be "posh" (ie professional type) to have an income high enough to be taxed. National Insurance was paid by a weekly NI stamp on your Card. From memory I think it was 1/10d pw, of which the employee only had the 10p deducted from his wages.
As LACs (5/6d a day, £1/18/6 pw) we paid no tax, the RAF presumably paid the NI. At $4.08/£. that would work out as a dollar a day. in the States, that was what we were paid. (An American Cadet on the same Course was paid seven times as much).
In India, as a Sgt/Pilot on 13/6 a day, we were only paid by the RAF the rough rupee equivalent of our £4/18/6 pw , about Rs60 pw after deductions, as I remember. Commissioned, it was a whole new ballpark: you were now paid by the Government of India on a much more generous scale - a P/ O was on Rs500 pm (about £36 pm); a F/O on Rs600 and a Flt Lt on Rs700 pm. They would not dream of taxing a British officer of the Raj !
That was fine - but you caught a cold when you got home !
Danny.
jeffb, old/obsolete aircraft relegated to the training role certainly contributed their own problems. The Blenheim was state of the art in its day no doubt but that was many years, let alone days, in the past. As a Bomber OTU stalwart its shortcomings may be gleaned by the many RAF war graves in Oxfordshire churchyards alone. Perhaps it was your father's good fortune that it does not feature in your list and hence, presumably, in his log book.
Of the 55573 aircrew losses remembered by the Bomber Command Memorial, over 8000 are ascribed to training losses I believe. Of course many of those would be due to aircrew error and lack of experience rather than aircraft shortcomings, but the latter has a habit of encouraging the former...
Of the 55573 aircrew losses remembered by the Bomber Command Memorial, over 8000 are ascribed to training losses I believe. Of course many of those would be due to aircrew error and lack of experience rather than aircraft shortcomings, but the latter has a habit of encouraging the former...
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Thanks, Danny. At least HMG let you be poorly paid without exacerbating the situation!! And a resounding "thank you" to the Government of India!!
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When I became a Boy Entrant in 1952, this was my 1st 'employement' and I remember that my NHI stoppage was 1/9 a week. I have no idea what was contibuted by my 'employer'. In the RAF we never had the card with stamps on, and these had been discontinued by the time my service ended.
As for Income Tax, I started paying that at in 1954 the rate of 1d a day when I was promoted to SAC on 11/- a day. As an LAC on 10/- I was apparantly under the threshold.
But lets face it, nobody joined the military to get rich.
As for Income Tax, I started paying that at in 1954 the rate of 1d a day when I was promoted to SAC on 11/- a day. As an LAC on 10/- I was apparantly under the threshold.
But lets face it, nobody joined the military to get rich.
a P/ O was on Rs500 pm (about £36 pm)
As a Pilot Officer on my first squadron in 1962 I got about £45/month net. £5 to the mess for extra? messing and maintenance, About £17 on the bar book and the rest I squandered.
In about 1975 an married Pilot Officer on the ground staff at Odiham qualified for Supplementary Benefit.
As a Pilot Officer on my first squadron in 1962 I got about £45/month net. £5 to the mess for extra? messing and maintenance, About £17 on the bar book and the rest I squandered.
In about 1975 an married Pilot Officer on the ground staff at Odiham qualified for Supplementary Benefit.
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In 1952 a NS AC2 was paid 4/- pd and NI was 3/- pw, so no income tax to pay, and the paying officer had it easy - you got £1 one week and 30 bob the next. AFIR the regulars among us got 7/- pd.
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This is a useful tool for making comparisons between 'back in the day' and now.
Historical UK inflation rates and calculator
£45 in 1962 is £950 today.
Historical UK inflation rates and calculator
£45 in 1962 is £950 today.
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I know I got £52/10/- as a plt off in late 65. Going to check comparative data.
... which shows not a huge difference (do they still have plt offs?):
1965 = 12,156 net.
2108 = £15k-£19k gross.
old (2007) PPRuNe thread here >>> https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/280538-raf-rates-pay-1950-s-1960s.html
... which shows not a huge difference (do they still have plt offs?):
1965 = 12,156 net.
2108 = £15k-£19k gross.
old (2007) PPRuNe thread here >>> https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/280538-raf-rates-pay-1950-s-1960s.html
Binbrook memories
It’s almost 70 years since Binbrook School headmaster Alfred Gordon took his class to visit the RAF graves in St. Mary’s Churchyard. He told us he remembered many of the young Australians who had frequented the Marquis of Granby beside his house, and explained that they had died for our freedom.
The airfield is long gone but the 460 Sqn Memorial is opposite the school on the corner of the Market Rasen road. When I returned to Binbrook 12 years later, as a young man, I was moved to find this poem framed and placed in the nave of St. Mary’s. It still resonates today.
Written by 460 Squadron veteran Geoff Magee, to his Absent Friends.
The airfield is long gone but the 460 Sqn Memorial is opposite the school on the corner of the Market Rasen road. When I returned to Binbrook 12 years later, as a young man, I was moved to find this poem framed and placed in the nave of St. Mary’s. It still resonates today.
Written by 460 Squadron veteran Geoff Magee, to his Absent Friends.
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn,
So truly says the Ode,
And as we age we think of them,
For whom life’s course has flowed.
Some died still boys in cruel war,
For some the tears have not yet dried,
But all have given us a store
Of memories, to recall with pride
Of ops we shared, and the life we knew,
And the Squadron where we tried,
To Strike and Return each time we flew,
But sadly, where many died.
Sometimes I hope that when I die,
There will come a ghostly Lanc,
Winging through the night-time sky
To land on a soft cloud bank.
And out will step some angels,
And those angels all will be
Those Squadron mates of every rank,
Come to escort me.
And the pains of age will leave me,
As through the skies we soar,
With the sounds of angels singing,
And the Merlin’s ghostly roar.
So truly says the Ode,
And as we age we think of them,
For whom life’s course has flowed.
Some died still boys in cruel war,
For some the tears have not yet dried,
But all have given us a store
Of memories, to recall with pride
Of ops we shared, and the life we knew,
And the Squadron where we tried,
To Strike and Return each time we flew,
But sadly, where many died.
Sometimes I hope that when I die,
There will come a ghostly Lanc,
Winging through the night-time sky
To land on a soft cloud bank.
And out will step some angels,
And those angels all will be
Those Squadron mates of every rank,
Come to escort me.
And the pains of age will leave me,
As through the skies we soar,
With the sounds of angels singing,
And the Merlin’s ghostly roar.