Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II
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Regle
Thanks for your thoughts and kind words. As I said at the beginning of these excerpts, the Old Man just sat down and spoke into a tape-recorder, as you point out, talking to me as if I were present. When, as a family, we stayed at Frinton, he and I would wander off to the Red Lion pub in Kirby-le-Soken at about midday on a Sunday and have a couple of pints. The place wasn't crowded and we could just stand at the bar and chat, he with his pint and pipe, me with my ears at attention so as not to miss a thing!
On the question of age, he was 23 when he went solo, being born on September 18 1917. This ageism thing appears later in an interesting encounter.
I'll post some more later today.
On the question of age, he was 23 when he went solo, being born on September 18 1917. This ageism thing appears later in an interesting encounter.
I'll post some more later today.
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Reg's pictures
Reg has just sent me 12 pictures that I have scanned and put into his photobucket account. Lesson 2 will be to teach him to be able to link the picture to PPRUNE!
I will however get into trouble as there is a great picture of him in a Harvard near the end of his Advanced training, so with apoligies to Reg
I will however get into trouble as there is a great picture of him in a Harvard near the end of his Advanced training, so with apoligies to Reg
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AT6.over Albany GA. Dec. 29th. 1941
Thanks a million , Andy. It was the great idea of the U.S. Army Air Corps., as it was then, to relax their discipline a bit just before you got those coveted silver wings and let you go up and they would formate on you and the chap in the back would take photographs. That way they would have a record of their pupils and you would have a picture which I think is one of the finest I have ever seen... That is me piloting the plane and my besr friend ,'Wally' Herbert in the back seat. I met him after the war so we were both very lucky as he was in Bomber Command as well. I think that speaks a lot for the tuition and I am eternally grateful for it. Reg.
The picture was taken on the 29th. Dec. 1941 and I have put in my Log Book . W.R. Herbert in back , my 200th. hour. photo by Lt.Rimmer U.S.A.A.C. (My Instructor).
The picture was taken on the 29th. Dec. 1941 and I have put in my Log Book . W.R. Herbert in back , my 200th. hour. photo by Lt.Rimmer U.S.A.A.C. (My Instructor).
Last edited by regle; 9th Oct 2009 at 17:37. Reason: Checked in my first log book.
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A Spitfire Pilot. Part 5.
When we did solo aerobatics we were told to get as far away from the aerodrome as possible, go up to about 5000’ and then sort of more or less do what you like. I used to love doing slow rolls, but on one occasion I got the aircraft to the top of the slow roll and for some reason or another it would neither go up nor down, it sort of floated half on its back and half on its side and no matter what I did, nothing seemed to happen. So I took my hands and feet off, which is the normal thing, I’m told, if you’re in trouble in a Moth and you’ve got sufficient height. The thing eventually righted itself and I came home.
What with one thing and another life was really beautiful at Brough. The weather was becoming reasonable, we got a fair amount of flying in, the only snag being Hull was being bombed fairly regularly and consequently we’d spend one night in the aerodrome and one night away at some church hall where they’d fixed up umpteen camp beds. The church hall was at Beverley, a few miles from Brough and we used to get taken there by coaches and picked up again in the morning. Now one or two of the chaps had cars and consequently we used to pile into the cars, go and spend an evening in Hull, then, instead of going back to Beverley, we’d go back to the aerodrome and creep into our rooms. Of course by this time several of us had rooms on our own. This was OK until one morning the coach driver arrived at Beverely about half past seven in the morning, sat there waiting for the coach to be filled up, nothing happened. Went into the church hall to find not a soul had stayed there overnight. Consequently he came back, raised Cain and things got a bit naughty after that. Anyway, it was no great hassle, there was quite a nice little pub, near the church hall so we used to spend most of our time in there, creeping back just in time for the coach to pick us up in the morning.
I only had one fairly unfortunate experience at Brough but it turned out all right in the end. As I mentioned previously, one boundary, the northern end of the aerodrome, had the railway running along and the southern boundary was the River Humber and we’d always been told, whatever we do, don’t land in the Humber, ‘cos it flows like the clappers and there’s little chance of getting you out, which isn’t much help if you happen to finish up in the Humber. Anyway on this particular occasion I was taking off from the railway end towards the Humber and I’d just got up and the engine cut. So I shoved the aircraft down and landed, finished up pretty near the fence at the far end and as the engine was stone dead, I just sat there. Up came a Flying Officer, who was one of the other instructors, asking me what had happened. I explained to him and he said
“Ah, well, we’ll try again”
So they got some lads, swung the prop, engine started and back I went. Got to the far end, turned round, took off again. I’d only got about 100’ when the engine cut again, so once more I pushed it down and when I’d finished my landing run I must have been within about 3’ of the perimeter fence. They then decided that maybe there was something wrong with the aircraft so they had it pushed back to the hangars and the blokes worked on it. I never found out what happened and what caused it, but at least I was alright, so I couldn’t care less.
We’d now got to the end of the course and all that mattered was where were we going to be posted. I went down to the mess for dinner with some of my chums and there was a notice-board with lists of who was going where and I was delighted to find that I’d been put down for day fighters. I was more than chuffed. Sergeant Ellis, who happened to be wandering around there, came up and patted me on the back and said,
“Right, Robbie, the next time I see you, I want to see that top button undone.”
As you know, the hallmark of Fighter Command pilots was the top button of their uniform undone. It was a bit of a line-shoot, but it made for a feeling of pride and that extra bit of confidence, which is always useful.
What with one thing and another life was really beautiful at Brough. The weather was becoming reasonable, we got a fair amount of flying in, the only snag being Hull was being bombed fairly regularly and consequently we’d spend one night in the aerodrome and one night away at some church hall where they’d fixed up umpteen camp beds. The church hall was at Beverley, a few miles from Brough and we used to get taken there by coaches and picked up again in the morning. Now one or two of the chaps had cars and consequently we used to pile into the cars, go and spend an evening in Hull, then, instead of going back to Beverley, we’d go back to the aerodrome and creep into our rooms. Of course by this time several of us had rooms on our own. This was OK until one morning the coach driver arrived at Beverely about half past seven in the morning, sat there waiting for the coach to be filled up, nothing happened. Went into the church hall to find not a soul had stayed there overnight. Consequently he came back, raised Cain and things got a bit naughty after that. Anyway, it was no great hassle, there was quite a nice little pub, near the church hall so we used to spend most of our time in there, creeping back just in time for the coach to pick us up in the morning.
I only had one fairly unfortunate experience at Brough but it turned out all right in the end. As I mentioned previously, one boundary, the northern end of the aerodrome, had the railway running along and the southern boundary was the River Humber and we’d always been told, whatever we do, don’t land in the Humber, ‘cos it flows like the clappers and there’s little chance of getting you out, which isn’t much help if you happen to finish up in the Humber. Anyway on this particular occasion I was taking off from the railway end towards the Humber and I’d just got up and the engine cut. So I shoved the aircraft down and landed, finished up pretty near the fence at the far end and as the engine was stone dead, I just sat there. Up came a Flying Officer, who was one of the other instructors, asking me what had happened. I explained to him and he said
“Ah, well, we’ll try again”
So they got some lads, swung the prop, engine started and back I went. Got to the far end, turned round, took off again. I’d only got about 100’ when the engine cut again, so once more I pushed it down and when I’d finished my landing run I must have been within about 3’ of the perimeter fence. They then decided that maybe there was something wrong with the aircraft so they had it pushed back to the hangars and the blokes worked on it. I never found out what happened and what caused it, but at least I was alright, so I couldn’t care less.
We’d now got to the end of the course and all that mattered was where were we going to be posted. I went down to the mess for dinner with some of my chums and there was a notice-board with lists of who was going where and I was delighted to find that I’d been put down for day fighters. I was more than chuffed. Sergeant Ellis, who happened to be wandering around there, came up and patted me on the back and said,
“Right, Robbie, the next time I see you, I want to see that top button undone.”
As you know, the hallmark of Fighter Command pilots was the top button of their uniform undone. It was a bit of a line-shoot, but it made for a feeling of pride and that extra bit of confidence, which is always useful.
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Regle - Instructors
I've given some thought to your comments regarding the relationship between instructors and pupils. This is purely supposition on my part, but I think the differences you mentioned come down to a very simple conclusion.
My father was trained in the UK, during bombing raids, albeit at night, by instructors who had already been in combat and knew why and what they were fighting for. I have no knowledge of the Arnold scheme, but it seems that you had US civilian instructors, America not being at war at that time, and thus they had no knowledge of what they were training their pupils for. The shared dangers of RAF instructors/pupils probably lead to a mutual feeling of "being in this together" and if they could train their charges to their own level of experience, then that was a huge bonus.
The RAF had a system where combat-proven pilots were given a rest period, time off ops, to instruct tyros, that would permeate down. The Luftwaffe did no thave this luxury. It's been noted before that if an RAF pilot who had scored combat victoires, say 3 or 4, then taught 5 other trainees to shoot down say 2 or 3, that was a far better return than keeping the war-weary pilots on operations, where they could not pass on their knowledge and experience to the next batch of first-tourists.
Just a thought, and I'd be interested to learn of the ratios of your colleagues who went to Fighter Command or, like you, went to Bomber Command.
More from the Old Man later, first I've got to run around and referee a few chaps in shorts with odd shaped balls tomorrow!
My father was trained in the UK, during bombing raids, albeit at night, by instructors who had already been in combat and knew why and what they were fighting for. I have no knowledge of the Arnold scheme, but it seems that you had US civilian instructors, America not being at war at that time, and thus they had no knowledge of what they were training their pupils for. The shared dangers of RAF instructors/pupils probably lead to a mutual feeling of "being in this together" and if they could train their charges to their own level of experience, then that was a huge bonus.
The RAF had a system where combat-proven pilots were given a rest period, time off ops, to instruct tyros, that would permeate down. The Luftwaffe did no thave this luxury. It's been noted before that if an RAF pilot who had scored combat victoires, say 3 or 4, then taught 5 other trainees to shoot down say 2 or 3, that was a far better return than keeping the war-weary pilots on operations, where they could not pass on their knowledge and experience to the next batch of first-tourists.
Just a thought, and I'd be interested to learn of the ratios of your colleagues who went to Fighter Command or, like you, went to Bomber Command.
More from the Old Man later, first I've got to run around and referee a few chaps in shorts with odd shaped balls tomorrow!
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Sticky:Photos of everybody.
With Reg's permission I have posted his picture of the A.T 6 on the thread ' Sticky: Photos of everybody' .
It's a bit difficult to find it (for me any how) . But I think I first entered Sticky: photos of everybody in the search box above, and it appeared a few entries down. Think I also Googled PPRuNE Sticky: photos of every body and found it. It also can be found by going to the bottom of this page , click on 'forum jump', bottom of list is Jet Blast so again click and you will see it in the list (I hope). HELP , there must be an easier way, anyone, what is it.
ANDY periodically an alphabetic list appears on this thread so that a picture of any contributor can quickly be found , but as I posted the pic of the A.T.6, unfortunately it will appear under my name. Your idea , scanning picture to Regle's Photobucket was a brilliant idea, and if you think fit could be used to publish a picture under Regle's name. How about it ?
It's a bit difficult to find it (for me any how) . But I think I first entered Sticky: photos of everybody in the search box above, and it appeared a few entries down. Think I also Googled PPRuNE Sticky: photos of every body and found it. It also can be found by going to the bottom of this page , click on 'forum jump', bottom of list is Jet Blast so again click and you will see it in the list (I hope). HELP , there must be an easier way, anyone, what is it.
ANDY periodically an alphabetic list appears on this thread so that a picture of any contributor can quickly be found , but as I posted the pic of the A.T.6, unfortunately it will appear under my name. Your idea , scanning picture to Regle's Photobucket was a brilliant idea, and if you think fit could be used to publish a picture under Regle's name. How about it ?
Last edited by cliffnemo; 10th Oct 2009 at 16:16.
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fighters vs bomber ratio
John Fairr
The ratio of fighters to bomber cadets (not forgetting coastal command?) was brought about by the current phase of the war. i.e. during the Battle of Britain we needed fighter pilots as we were under attack and defending the UK. When Reg was a cadet July 41 to Jan 42 the UK started to want to go on the offensive, hence they needed more bomber pilots. I can also guess that when the convoys were attacked by U boats that we needed Coastal Command pilots?
My Uncle who was on the same course as Reg 42A, got "washed out" of Reg's class after Primary training and swapped to BFTS 1 course 3, when I tracked down all the output from the BFTS in that class approx 100, there were only 6 fighter pilots including my Uncle, that would be Jan 42.
I've spoken to Reg and other cadets many times to see how they were selected for single or multi-engined careers, but I have not managed to find out exactly how the selection was made,I do know that Reg was in the first 3 to solo on his course and was good at acrobatics so you would have thought he would have been selected as a fighter pilot? However also knowing Reg he would be quite communicative to the instructors that he saw his future as a multi engine pilot and maybe they listen to the cadets? I also think they tended to select the rebellious individualists as fighter pilots?
The ratio of fighters to bomber cadets (not forgetting coastal command?) was brought about by the current phase of the war. i.e. during the Battle of Britain we needed fighter pilots as we were under attack and defending the UK. When Reg was a cadet July 41 to Jan 42 the UK started to want to go on the offensive, hence they needed more bomber pilots. I can also guess that when the convoys were attacked by U boats that we needed Coastal Command pilots?
My Uncle who was on the same course as Reg 42A, got "washed out" of Reg's class after Primary training and swapped to BFTS 1 course 3, when I tracked down all the output from the BFTS in that class approx 100, there were only 6 fighter pilots including my Uncle, that would be Jan 42.
I've spoken to Reg and other cadets many times to see how they were selected for single or multi-engined careers, but I have not managed to find out exactly how the selection was made,I do know that Reg was in the first 3 to solo on his course and was good at acrobatics so you would have thought he would have been selected as a fighter pilot? However also knowing Reg he would be quite communicative to the instructors that he saw his future as a multi engine pilot and maybe they listen to the cadets? I also think they tended to select the rebellious individualists as fighter pilots?
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Per ardua ad astra...
The rather embarrassing picture was taken at No.6 IT.W.,Aberystwyth after finishing our Ground Courses, for a recruiting campaign......Thankfully was not used or I would never have lived it down although, like Denis Compton ..."Who's he ?" say a lot of you, I did use Brylcreem. I had hair then. The promotion meant that we got six shillings and sixpence per day which instead of two shillings and sixpence , 'arf a crown to you Londoners, meant that we were filthy rich as all our board and meals were paid for and it represented quite a lot money when egg and chips at a nice Caff cost us less than one shilling. A lot of people even sent home a goodly portion of it to their Mothers or Wives. Thanks Andy for the acrobatics of which I had no knowledge. I wasn't bad at aerobatics but wasn't keen." There was I, upside down with nothing on the clock," The original "Line shoot", I have been told. I am persevering with the posting pictures exercises with no success. Nil Desperandum. Reg.
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regle
re No 6 ITW Aberystwyth When were you there?
My uncle ( my mothers only sibling) was in A Flight Ninth course No 1 Squadron at RAF Aberystwyth and I have a photo of the whole course dated 25th Feb 1941. How long did those courses last as in Jan 1942 as a Pilot Officer from No 40 Squadron his aircraft ( Wellington) ditched in the North Sea on a bombing raid to/from Wilhelmshaven. He ended up a POW in camps 6B/21B/L3 but two of the crew were killed.
On the front row of the photo are Flt Lt C.Wyatt-Hughes ( with Wings) Cpl A Clarke and Cpl J J Forester and P/O R O Whitaker who I guess were the Instructors.
Wonder if they were around when you were there??
re No 6 ITW Aberystwyth When were you there?
My uncle ( my mothers only sibling) was in A Flight Ninth course No 1 Squadron at RAF Aberystwyth and I have a photo of the whole course dated 25th Feb 1941. How long did those courses last as in Jan 1942 as a Pilot Officer from No 40 Squadron his aircraft ( Wellington) ditched in the North Sea on a bombing raid to/from Wilhelmshaven. He ended up a POW in camps 6B/21B/L3 but two of the crew were killed.
On the front row of the photo are Flt Lt C.Wyatt-Hughes ( with Wings) Cpl A Clarke and Cpl J J Forester and P/O R O Whitaker who I guess were the Instructors.
Wonder if they were around when you were there??
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Gypsy.
I have told of my days in N0.6 ITU Aber.in much earlier threads (They strted around page 13 onwards ). I was there from Jan. 1941 until May 1941 although the course only lasted six weeks . the trouble was that the bad winter had caused the flying schools to be virtually closed down and we were just sent on many weeks leave or we reported for roll call early and then were free for the rest of the day.. If you look at some of the pictures of Aberystwith that Andy posted for me , you will see me and the rest of B Flight. The coincidence there is that the Flight Sergeant pictured was also the same as the one that was in charge of Cliff Nemo, later on , I think.. The Corporal was not the same one as you mention. I think that his name was on the picture as we were presenting him with a small memento of his good work for us all. All the best , Reg. P.S. Aberystwyth is mentioned in Thread 270 but Photo Bucket have removed the pictures . I can think of a phrase that rhymes with Bucket.
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The picture on the tractor
The Sgt.'s stripes were worn by me because I was given the Cadet rank as I was the Cadet Band Leader and one of the buglers at Albany and Macon GA. in Class 42A of the Arnold scheme. It made no difference to the pay, but gave us certain privileges such as being allowed to go off the camp some weekdays as well as the normal time which was from noon Saturday until 1900 Sunday. We were just fooling around with the tractor and never dared to get it going . We were also allowed to try the Fire engine but amazed the Americans when they discovered that all of us, at that time, could solo on an aeroplane but, only about one in fifty had ever driven a car. Signs of the times....1941 Reg.
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Not to be outdone by Messrs Regle and Andy.
Cliffnemo on far right (with Brylcreem) with Hardy Albrecht.
Brings back memories of Clarke Truck Tractors, Clarke fork lifts, Ross Fork Lifts . No fork lifts were manufactured , or very rarely seen in the U.K in those days/
Sorry just got carried away.
Cliffnemo on far right (with Brylcreem) with Hardy Albrecht.
Brings back memories of Clarke Truck Tractors, Clarke fork lifts, Ross Fork Lifts . No fork lifts were manufactured , or very rarely seen in the U.K in those days/
Sorry just got carried away.
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Gypsy
The photos of Aberystwyth No.6 ITW are on page22 Thread 425 . Every single one of us in B Flight went to Albany GA. for training and we got our wings in Jan 1942. Probably your Uncle was in another flight, I think you said 'A' Flight. I remember you said that your Uncle was killed in Jan 42 so I think that he must have gone on a much shorter Flying course, probably in England as it was September or October before I was starting my Ops with 105 Sqdn. It was a great pity that the training in England was so dependent on the weather. South Africa, Canada, Rhodesia and the USA were far far, flung but we owe them so much for the training of our chaps that enabled us to hold out . The Empire Training scheme together with the Arnold, particularly and then the Tower's British Training schemes got around the weather and the capacity of our little island to pour out the thousands of pilots that we so desperately needed. Unfortunately the less fortunate ones who had the fog, wind, rain and peculiarities of the English climate to add to their difficulties in mastering a new and challenging element , paid the ultimate price. Reg
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Deck Landing
Hello Cliff,
Hope I've got the hang of publishing pics at last.
Landing a Seafire on the Attacker was always somewhat scary. The two photos show that things could go wrong but nevertheless in the words of the A25 song it was an 'OK Landing' - the pilot could still walk away!
Must not forget the Batman. When a Seafire hit the deck (literally), the Batman was standing only 20 feet or so from the wing tip. If the ship rolled, the aircraft came in in off centre or the wind direction changed the Batman was in a precarious position! Slung over the side of the carrier was a small net. As a last resort the Batman made a hasty run and jump and hopefully finished up in the net.
Only trouble now is these pics look like postage stamps, 4 times bigger wold be better
Gordon
Hope I've got the hang of publishing pics at last.
Landing a Seafire on the Attacker was always somewhat scary. The two photos show that things could go wrong but nevertheless in the words of the A25 song it was an 'OK Landing' - the pilot could still walk away!
Must not forget the Batman. When a Seafire hit the deck (literally), the Batman was standing only 20 feet or so from the wing tip. If the ship rolled, the aircraft came in in off centre or the wind direction changed the Batman was in a precarious position! Slung over the side of the carrier was a small net. As a last resort the Batman made a hasty run and jump and hopefully finished up in the net.
Only trouble now is these pics look like postage stamps, 4 times bigger wold be better
Gordon
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I think that somehow you've posted the link to the thumbnails not the image, in photobucket, click on IMG CODE then copy the highlighted bit to the right and paste it directly into your post.