Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II
Cunning Artificer
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I wasn't impressed at the over emphasis on what was going on on the ground. Which squadrons were engaged? What aircraft were used? RNAS involvement? What were the loss rates? Total losses -men and machines? These are the matters that could and should have been addressed in a programme that claimed to explain where the RAF were at Dunkirk using newly released information. There was nothing I didn't know already from our lessons on RAF history at Halton back in the sixties.
IIRC, they were ordered to leave all equipment including weapons behind. A lot, and I think the majority, were picked up from the beaches, after standing in water up to their chests for hours in some cases. Apart from the added weight and room in the small boats, I imagine keeping a rifle dry in those circumstances would be pretty well impossible.
There was nothing new - the recently declassified stuff from Kew may have enthused some researchers but all you have to do is read any sqn's F540 to see what they were doing.
I've got 56(F)'s and it showed them over the beaches or escorting bombers inland to bomb Luftwaffe bases most days.
I've got 56(F)'s and it showed them over the beaches or escorting bombers inland to bomb Luftwaffe bases most days.
Last edited by radar101; 3rd Jul 2017 at 17:14.
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There was an [unjustified] bleat by some of the guys on the beaches that they never saw the RAF while they were being strafed/bombed. The facts stand up to scrutiny ... RAF fighter squadrons were all over the place, trying to minimise the impact the Luftwaffe was having. Unfortunately, the average stressed/bombed soldier will never be an accurate reporter of air activity at 20,000 ft.
I'd say that I was most surprised at hearing that some material from 1940 had only just been released at Kew, and I can't say I heard anything that would have justified such a delay over the standard 30 years. If the programme makers say that's what has happened, then so be it - but it all seems just a bit odd to me.
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I must admit I did not see anything in this programme that I did not already know. However some researchers/historians claim that there is still some material held back which wont see the light of day until the hundredth anniversary in 2040. Some of this restricted information is believed to be about efforts by members of the Royal Family to bring the war to an end but I doubt there will be anything concerning operational matters of the RAF.
DOF, you make a good point. If indeed we do have to wait until 2040 to be told what was really going on within those elevated circles, then I intend to be a b nuisance and stick around to find out. I'll only be 99! That's nothing these days is it Danny? 
In particular I'd like to know who invited Rudolf Hess, who was he expecting to meet, and what was the proposal to be put to him?
In particular I'd like to know who invited Rudolf Hess, who was he expecting to meet, and what was the proposal to be put to him?
Chugalug 2, I strongly suspect that the documents will refer to the Duke of Windsor. A known racist, he and Wallis (about whom there is also much speculation) were bundled off to Bermuda during WW2 where there was less chance of them causing problems for Britain during the war.
Despite the RAF dress regulations mandating its use, to this day the royals refuse to use the Windsor knot when in RAF uniform and are, ipso facto, incorrectly dressed. Not that any SWO is likely to pick them up though!
Other possibilities are the documents pertaining to the interrogation of Rudolf Hess and 'Box24' of the Duke of Windsor's archives which may reveal pro-Nazi sympathies, although some consider that his contact with Hitler was merely to appease Nazi Germany in an attempt to prevent WW2 breaking out.
No doubt if Comrade Corbychev had his way and the British Socialist Republic was formed, the papers would be released rather sooner?
Despite the RAF dress regulations mandating its use, to this day the royals refuse to use the Windsor knot when in RAF uniform and are, ipso facto, incorrectly dressed. Not that any SWO is likely to pick them up though!
Other possibilities are the documents pertaining to the interrogation of Rudolf Hess and 'Box24' of the Duke of Windsor's archives which may reveal pro-Nazi sympathies, although some consider that his contact with Hitler was merely to appease Nazi Germany in an attempt to prevent WW2 breaking out.
No doubt if Comrade Corbychev had his way and the British Socialist Republic was formed, the papers would be released rather sooner?
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Ye know not the Day nor the Hour.
Chugalug, (#10950),
"I'll only be 99! That's nothing these days is it Danny?"
Do not tempt Providence !
(AFAIK, no one on Thread here's managed 96 yet - so what are the odds of me making it in the next five months ?)
"In particular I'd like to know who invited Rudolf Hess, who was he expecting to meet, and what was the proposal to be put to him?"
So would we all - but I think it's one of those things we shall never know. Theories abound.
Danny.
"I'll only be 99! That's nothing these days is it Danny?
" Do not tempt Providence !
(AFAIK, no one on Thread here's managed 96 yet - so what are the odds of me making it in the next five months ?)"In particular I'd like to know who invited Rudolf Hess, who was he expecting to meet, and what was the proposal to be put to him?"
So would we all - but I think it's one of those things we shall never know. Theories abound.
Danny.
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"A lot, and I think the majority, were picked up from the beaches,"
A lot were but the majority were picked up by destroyers (39 were used) and minesweepers from piers and docks in the harbour area - you can move a lot more men far faster onto the ship that way
Wikipedia
With the docks in the harbour rendered unusable by German air attacks, senior naval officer Captain (later Admiral) William Tennant initially ordered men to be evacuated from the beaches. When this proved too slow, he re-routed the evacuees to two long stone and concrete breakwaters, called the East and West Mole, as well as the beaches. Almost 200,000 troops embarked on ships from the East Mole (which stretched nearly a mile out to sea) over the next week.
On 28 May, 17,804 soldiers arrived at British ports. On 29 May, 47,310 British troops were rescued. The next day, an additional 53,823 men were embarked, including the first French soldiers. Lord Gort and 68,014 men were evacuated on 31 May, leaving Major-General Harold Alexander in command of the rearguard.
A further 64,429 Allied soldiers departed on 1 June, before the increasing air attacks prevented further daylight evacuation. The British rearguard of 4,000 men left on the night of 2–3 June. An additional 75,000 French troops were retrieved over the nights of 2–4 June, before the operation finally ended.
The remainder of the rearguard—40,000 French troops—surrendered on 4 June
A lot were but the majority were picked up by destroyers (39 were used) and minesweepers from piers and docks in the harbour area - you can move a lot more men far faster onto the ship that way
Wikipedia
With the docks in the harbour rendered unusable by German air attacks, senior naval officer Captain (later Admiral) William Tennant initially ordered men to be evacuated from the beaches. When this proved too slow, he re-routed the evacuees to two long stone and concrete breakwaters, called the East and West Mole, as well as the beaches. Almost 200,000 troops embarked on ships from the East Mole (which stretched nearly a mile out to sea) over the next week.
On 28 May, 17,804 soldiers arrived at British ports. On 29 May, 47,310 British troops were rescued. The next day, an additional 53,823 men were embarked, including the first French soldiers. Lord Gort and 68,014 men were evacuated on 31 May, leaving Major-General Harold Alexander in command of the rearguard.
A further 64,429 Allied soldiers departed on 1 June, before the increasing air attacks prevented further daylight evacuation. The British rearguard of 4,000 men left on the night of 2–3 June. An additional 75,000 French troops were retrieved over the nights of 2–4 June, before the operation finally ended.
The remainder of the rearguard—40,000 French troops—surrendered on 4 June
DOF it's the same with the files on the French resistance. My father was a translator for de Gaulle whom he detested as he similarly did with Churchill. Told me that the majority of the resistance were "communist" and were betrayed by them to keep France fascist.
Met a French researcher a couple of years ago who had visited Kew and was told without the death certificates the files were frozen for 100 years....didn't know the gestapo or the camps issued them!
Met a French researcher a couple of years ago who had visited Kew and was told without the death certificates the files were frozen for 100 years....didn't know the gestapo or the camps issued them!
blind pew
Not quite. following from National Archives website.
Met a French researcher a couple of years ago who had visited Kew and was told without the death certificates the files were frozen for 100 years....didn't know the gestapo or the camps issued them!
7. Special Operations Executive (SOE)
7.1 Background
You will find useful information about the arrangement of the records and the history of the SOE in our catalogue (you will need to scroll down the page to see all sections).
Any personnel records that have survived are closed to the public until 2030 to protect the individuals concerned.
If you are interested in such a file and can demonstrate that the person it relates to is deceased, then you can submit a Freedom of Information request. If it relates to you personally you can make a request under Data Protection legislation using the leaflet on our website
7.1 Background
You will find useful information about the arrangement of the records and the history of the SOE in our catalogue (you will need to scroll down the page to see all sections).
Any personnel records that have survived are closed to the public until 2030 to protect the individuals concerned.
If you are interested in such a file and can demonstrate that the person it relates to is deceased, then you can submit a Freedom of Information request. If it relates to you personally you can make a request under Data Protection legislation using the leaflet on our website
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Fascinated by Poona map, but cannot find our area. Away from home on hols, wifi not easy, and need to look up old stuff again. I remember crossing bridges short gharri ride from home with acrid smells from burning ghats on river banks so we can't have been far away. Thanks for posting this gem!
Warmtoast...just reiterating what he told me but I've been trying for several years to get a file released on the attempted bombing of a Trident out of Belfast that diverted to Manchester.
The file had been closed for forty years. After several months I traced its current whereabouts and after being persistent I was accidentally sent an internal communication as to how I might get it released. A few hours late I was sent another mail which told me to destroy the previous email which I did.
Kew apparently hasn't got it but it was held by a department associated with the department of transport.
The forty year period has passed and last year I applied again to be told that they haven't held the file. So I appealed and recounted the history of our communications. That didn't work so I made a complaint to the ombudsman wrt FOI which wasn't even acknowledged.
If you are wondering why...I flew the Trident in the 70s and had a specific bomb threat as well as a couple of general ones. The Manchester flight had a viable device but management lied to us. It was a period where Balpa had to force BEA to take over our personal life insurance cover as it was negated by flying into a war zone!
The file had been closed for forty years. After several months I traced its current whereabouts and after being persistent I was accidentally sent an internal communication as to how I might get it released. A few hours late I was sent another mail which told me to destroy the previous email which I did.
Kew apparently hasn't got it but it was held by a department associated with the department of transport.
The forty year period has passed and last year I applied again to be told that they haven't held the file. So I appealed and recounted the history of our communications. That didn't work so I made a complaint to the ombudsman wrt FOI which wasn't even acknowledged.
If you are wondering why...I flew the Trident in the 70s and had a specific bomb threat as well as a couple of general ones. The Manchester flight had a viable device but management lied to us. It was a period where Balpa had to force BEA to take over our personal life insurance cover as it was negated by flying into a war zone!
Re Chugalug2 "BTW, I seem to remember in the film Lawrence Olivier (as Dowding) saying that he had lost 400 aircraft in and over France, whereas this programme spoke of 900 I think. Were the other 500 not from Fighter Command?"
This explains for me why he put his foot down at that war office meeting with Churchill and insisted that the remaining squadrons were to be kept back for the coming defence of Britain. And Churchill backed down, despite his promise to the desperately pleading French.
This explains for me why he put his foot down at that war office meeting with Churchill and insisted that the remaining squadrons were to be kept back for the coming defence of Britain. And Churchill backed down, despite his promise to the desperately pleading French.
jh, this post from another site suggests that the 900 and 400 of total and fighter losses respectively are if anything a considerable understatement for RAF losses in the Battle of France:-
This is from :-
https://forum.axishistory.com//viewtopic.php?t=111632
Other posts talk of 453 Hurricanes lost, the very great majority being on the ground.
You are right. Dowding's plea that his fighters be withdrawn from France meant that he could prevail, just, in the forthcoming Battle of Britain. A great commander and shabbily treated by the RAF, the Air Ministry, and his fellow RAF VSOs.
Actually, there are several historians who point out the magnitude of the Luftwaffe's losses during the 1940 campaign in the west.
For example, E. R. Hooton, in Phoenix Triumphant p. 267-268 lists Luftwaffe losses as 1,428, 0f which 1,129 were lost due to enemy action. Hooton goes on to list 1,092 aircrew killed, 1,395 aircrew wounded, and 1,930 aircrew missing. Corresponding French losses were 574 a/c lost in the air (of which 174 were lost to Flak), 460 aircrew killed and another 120 taken prisoner. RAF losses were 959 aircraft (of which 477 were fighters and 381 bombers) and 912 aircrew killed or missing (of which 312 were pilots) and another 184 aircrew wounded.
For example, E. R. Hooton, in Phoenix Triumphant p. 267-268 lists Luftwaffe losses as 1,428, 0f which 1,129 were lost due to enemy action. Hooton goes on to list 1,092 aircrew killed, 1,395 aircrew wounded, and 1,930 aircrew missing. Corresponding French losses were 574 a/c lost in the air (of which 174 were lost to Flak), 460 aircrew killed and another 120 taken prisoner. RAF losses were 959 aircraft (of which 477 were fighters and 381 bombers) and 912 aircrew killed or missing (of which 312 were pilots) and another 184 aircrew wounded.
https://forum.axishistory.com//viewtopic.php?t=111632
Other posts talk of 453 Hurricanes lost, the very great majority being on the ground.
You are right. Dowding's plea that his fighters be withdrawn from France meant that he could prevail, just, in the forthcoming Battle of Britain. A great commander and shabbily treated by the RAF, the Air Ministry, and his fellow RAF VSOs.