Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II
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BBadanov,
There is the one in the Camden Museum, Narellan, Sydney. Temporarily closed to the publc, I think. Might be possible for someone out there who is interested to get in and have a look.
Long shot.
Danny.
EDIT: Oops ! - you're out there already.
There is the one in the Camden Museum, Narellan, Sydney. Temporarily closed to the publc, I think. Might be possible for someone out there who is interested to get in and have a look.
Long shot.
Danny.
EDIT: Oops ! - you're out there already.
Last edited by Danny42C; 23rd Mar 2017 at 12:39. Reason: Oops ! - you're there already !
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Wright versus Pratt engines.
Researching the wartime history of my Father, I know that
he was on a course at Pratt & Whitney, also that he subsequently
assembled Vengeances in India. Somewhere on the Internet (???)
I remember a remark about Pratt & Whitney workers
assembling Wright engines. Anyone know anything?
he was on a course at Pratt & Whitney, also that he subsequently
assembled Vengeances in India. Somewhere on the Internet (???)
I remember a remark about Pratt & Whitney workers
assembling Wright engines. Anyone know anything?
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Guys I am neck deep working on dads Coffee Table book (YOUTUBE.COM/KOPTERKOJAK/AIRFORCEBALLAD) but if I can help in any way lt me know in respect of EFS Begumpet 42,then Ambala,Bhopal,151 OTU Walton Lahore,SS STRAITHEAD,SS ILE DE FRANCE,UK Harrogate 7 PRC,17(P)AFU Calvely Miles Master,5 (P)AFU Ternhill Hurris,57 OTU Eshott & BOULMER SPITS,SS MULOGA,RFU Poona,9 IAF COx's Huris,8 RIAF Mingladon Spits
Regards
Kojak
[email protected]
Regards
Kojak
[email protected]
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Kojak (#10384).
Welcome aboard !.
Too late for the Vengeance, then ! But when you were on the Spits (8 Sqn) did you come across a Niel (sic) Ker ? Also,what do you think of the Tale of the Buried Spitfires in Burma, which caused such excitement a couple of years ago ?
Danny42C (ex 110 and 8 IAF Sqns).
Welcome aboard !.
...RFU Poona,9 IAF COx's Huris,8 RIAF Mingladon Spits,,,
Danny42C (ex 110 and 8 IAF Sqns).
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George Sproates
... After this first solo flight, his euphoria was short lived as he entered the crew room to discover a notice which informed him, and one or two others, that they were being sent to the other side of the airfield to be trained as navigators. Along with his friend George Sproates (see Post7851) their initial reaction to this was that they felt “stitched up” or “sold down the river” and they were very angry. They felt like deliberately failing the course until they realised that it meant that they would probably end up with a worse job and, once he got started, he actually found it quite interesting.
First of all apologies to all involved as I have to admit that I am not a pilot and have nothing to do with aviation, however something you posted came up in my google search that I couldn't pass by.
To explain I have to quickly tell you that I am a native Finn and due to the nature of the relationship between Finland and the Soviet Union after WW2 it was not allowed or advised to talk about the war and thus barely know anything about my grandfathers' time defending our country. However there is plenty of information available on my British partners grandfather and have been incredibly interested in his time as an RAF navigator, hence my keen googling.
My partner's grandfather was George Sproates originally from a mining family in the North East and served as a navigator during the war. I have shared some of the information in your post with George's daughter and she said that it definitely sounds like him...! Sadly he passed away in the 60's after surviving a crash in Libya and two years in L3 as a POW.
The family would be incredibly interested in hearing stories about him, if it would be possible to pass this message on to your friend Frank?
Thank you very in advance for your help..!
Sanna
Sannatuu: Do you know if this could be the same navigator G Sproates who became Commanding Officer of 10 Squadron from 1955-56, when the unit was flying the Canberra jet bomber? Has participation in the air attacks on Egypt in 1956 ever been mentioned in the family, for example? As it happens, I've just started trying to find out a bit more about him for the Squadron Association website and, from some of the bits I've found online, I'm wondering if there might have been two of them around post-war. One retired in 1971 as a Group Captain and if you're correct about a death in the 60s, then it does seem that there were two after all.
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esa-aardvark (#10383),
The story we heard was that they'd lost the assembly manuals, and they had to be put together "By guess and by God" ("simple home assembly" ?) Did your Dad say anything about that ?
Much the same, I would imagine. (Any techies listening ?)
Danny.
... also that he subsequently assembled Vengeances in India...
... Pratt & Whitney workers assembling Wright engines...
Danny.
Last edited by Danny42C; 23rd Mar 2017 at 13:03. Reason: Typo.
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sannatuu (#10386),
First, as the Oldest Inhabitant (AFAIK), let me welcome you aboard this, the best Thread on the best Forum of all the PPRuNe Forums (Fora ?) Draw up a chair near the stove in this our old cyber-crewroom and listen to the Wisdom of the Ancients. Don't go away, now !
You have now !
You can get the "Air Force List" on Google (have done it once, but can't remember how). But plenty of people here CAN. George Sproates is the name, chaps - go to it. (And read p.393, #7851 first).
Danny42C.
First, as the Oldest Inhabitant (AFAIK), let me welcome you aboard this, the best Thread on the best Forum of all the PPRuNe Forums (Fora ?) Draw up a chair near the stove in this our old cyber-crewroom and listen to the Wisdom of the Ancients. Don't go away, now !
...and have nothing to do with aviation...
You can get the "Air Force List" on Google (have done it once, but can't remember how). But plenty of people here CAN. George Sproates is the name, chaps - go to it. (And read p.393, #7851 first).
Danny42C.
Another 2nd World War pilot's stiory
Hi Danny et al, I don't know if I've posted this before on this best of best threads. It's a story of a young pilot who went through WW 2 as a mechanic AC 1 and pilot. His story parallels Danny's in many ways :
Undaunted > Vintage Wings of Canada
If I have posted this before please forgive me but if not I hope you enjoy the story.
Undaunted > Vintage Wings of Canada
If I have posted this before please forgive me but if not I hope you enjoy the story.
George Sproates
Sannatuu,
Sadly, Frank passed away a few weeks ago at the age of 98 so I cannot ask him any more about his old friend George Sproates. I can only repeat what I wrote before. The most important bit, if you are trying to identify your George is that, according to Frank, his last job in the RAF was as Station Commander at Akrotiri. I do not remember him telling me that George was ever a POW. Frank was highly amused at the rapid progress made by his Geordie friend through the ranks of the RAF and put it down to his excellent acting skills and being able to hide his pronounced accent.
Others may be interested to learn that Frank's story on this thread formed the basis of Frank's obituary in the local paper.
Sadly, Frank passed away a few weeks ago at the age of 98 so I cannot ask him any more about his old friend George Sproates. I can only repeat what I wrote before. The most important bit, if you are trying to identify your George is that, according to Frank, his last job in the RAF was as Station Commander at Akrotiri. I do not remember him telling me that George was ever a POW. Frank was highly amused at the rapid progress made by his Geordie friend through the ranks of the RAF and put it down to his excellent acting skills and being able to hide his pronounced accent.
Others may be interested to learn that Frank's story on this thread formed the basis of Frank's obituary in the local paper.
George Sproates
Pulse 1 & sannatuu:
I too am sorry to hear that Frank has died - at 98 it sounds as if he had a good innings.
I've continued looking into George Sproates' background and I'm now pretty much convinced that there was only one and that he was Frank's friend in early days. Searches on the London Gazette give just one Sproates for the timescale of interest, and I believe I now have a continuous track from 945221 Sgt G Sproates to his commissioning as Pilot Officer (114580) and on to his early retirement as Group Captain on 31 March 1971. And that last date poses an immediate question - Sannatuu mentions a death 'in the 60s' and if that's correct, I'm back to Square 1. Equally, Frank believed George was OC Akrotiri - but that view is not supported by the RAFWEB list of Station Comanders. 'My' George was promoted to Gp Capt on 1 Jan 64 and, as many may recall, during the 60s the multi-role base that was Akrotiri had a series of Air Commodores as COs. If George was in Cyprus, entirely possible, perhaps it was in the staff of HQ NEAF?
The 272 Sqn connection on Beaufighters in Egypt for Frank and George is certainly there. George went missing in March 1942 and appears in the POW records as having been held in Stalag Luft III. As Frank appears to have been unaware of that, perhaps he himself had gone missing earlier on. And if so, that might explain Frank's surprise at George taking a commission, because that fact was known on the Squadron in early 1942.
Interestingly, George was Mentioned in Despatches for ops in Korea in 1951. So, given the RAF's limited participation in the war out there, was he then on Sunderlands? Or perhaps even on an Exchange with the RAAF? Also, as a Sqn Ldr, he was one of the student navs for the polar Aries flights in December 1954, shortly before joining 10 Sqn as OC in April 1955. And that's about as far as I've got for now.
Sannatuu, I think we're dealing withe same man - one born in the Durham area on 18 June 1921 and who died towards the end of 1971 around Gosport. If your partner thinks that might be him, let's get together to see how much more we can establish together.
I too am sorry to hear that Frank has died - at 98 it sounds as if he had a good innings.
I've continued looking into George Sproates' background and I'm now pretty much convinced that there was only one and that he was Frank's friend in early days. Searches on the London Gazette give just one Sproates for the timescale of interest, and I believe I now have a continuous track from 945221 Sgt G Sproates to his commissioning as Pilot Officer (114580) and on to his early retirement as Group Captain on 31 March 1971. And that last date poses an immediate question - Sannatuu mentions a death 'in the 60s' and if that's correct, I'm back to Square 1. Equally, Frank believed George was OC Akrotiri - but that view is not supported by the RAFWEB list of Station Comanders. 'My' George was promoted to Gp Capt on 1 Jan 64 and, as many may recall, during the 60s the multi-role base that was Akrotiri had a series of Air Commodores as COs. If George was in Cyprus, entirely possible, perhaps it was in the staff of HQ NEAF?
The 272 Sqn connection on Beaufighters in Egypt for Frank and George is certainly there. George went missing in March 1942 and appears in the POW records as having been held in Stalag Luft III. As Frank appears to have been unaware of that, perhaps he himself had gone missing earlier on. And if so, that might explain Frank's surprise at George taking a commission, because that fact was known on the Squadron in early 1942.
Interestingly, George was Mentioned in Despatches for ops in Korea in 1951. So, given the RAF's limited participation in the war out there, was he then on Sunderlands? Or perhaps even on an Exchange with the RAAF? Also, as a Sqn Ldr, he was one of the student navs for the polar Aries flights in December 1954, shortly before joining 10 Sqn as OC in April 1955. And that's about as far as I've got for now.
Sannatuu, I think we're dealing withe same man - one born in the Durham area on 18 June 1921 and who died towards the end of 1971 around Gosport. If your partner thinks that might be him, let's get together to see how much more we can establish together.
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Ian, I believe that would have been Gp Capt Verity, followed from 1965 by a string of 5 Air Cdres:
Station OCs - Middle East
Station OCs - Middle East
As a Yorkshireman I worship it.
But the high-water mark of Verity's career came during a long-forgotten County Championship match in 1932. On the Headingley ground near his birthplace, Verity returned staggering figures of 10 for 10 against Nottinghamshire - a world record that still stands.
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Ten for Ten - Hedley Verity
See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedley_Verity
Realise it's only Wiki, but I think they are right this time
PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)
Realise it's only Wiki, but I think they are right this time
PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)
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Squadron Leader George Sproates
I was on 88 Squadron (Sunderlands) at Seletar 1951 and i remember the CO of 205 Squadron (Sunderlands) was a Navigator, Squadron Leader G Sproates.
This would explain the MID for Korea. The three Squadrons, 205 88 and 209 were the limited RAF operations in Korea.
This would explain the MID for Korea. The three Squadrons, 205 88 and 209 were the limited RAF operations in Korea.
Kojak's Indian memories
I have mailed Kojak regarding his #10385 in the hope he can enlighten me regarding childhood memories which I don't think I have related on this thread – if I did, apologies.
My father was posted to India in 1945 to join the Japanese offensive. My mother and I joined him at Poona in early 1946, the first time I spent any time with my father as it was very difficult for him to travel home. After weeks of pestering he took me to Poona airfield where I saw a monster aeroplane waddling in from the airfield towards the hangar, I remember thinking the pilot wasn't very good at steering … two decades later I encountered my first taildragger and swiftly discovered why one has to taxi in zigzags.
So it came to pass that the first aircraft I ever saw up close was that Vultee Vengeance ... at five years old I was lifted into the cockpit and I remember the stick handgrip was level with my eyes and everybody laughed when I asked how the pilot could see out. There were Indian officers present, I do not know if my father was attached to the IAF at that time. He was then posted to Drigh Road, Karachi, where the RAF operated Tempests. We all left for Blighty on Partition in 1947.
We lived in simple bungalows on what I think was Wagholi Road. About two bungalows from us was a narrow gauge railway level crossing which led from a long ramp up the face of a very big quarry. I was told the railway was run by the Sappers and Miners, and Driver Singh hauling two wagons of stone used to take me up and down the line to the depot about two miles away, to the great concern of my poor mother. I didn't mind the heat on the footplate although the ironwork on the wagons was too hot to touch, especially if they had been parked in the afternoon sun. I still wonder if this was the extensive Wagholi Quarry which I can see on Google Earth.
How maintenance crews worked inside the aircraft in the tropics is hard to comprehend. Later at RAF Khormaksar in 1951 I encountered my first air conditioning plant. A portable unit like a trolley-acc chugged away at the hangar door, whence a foot-wide trunk led through my father's office door. He was seldom short of company in his cool office, except when the machine was required for its rightful task of cooling down visiting transports.
My father was posted to India in 1945 to join the Japanese offensive. My mother and I joined him at Poona in early 1946, the first time I spent any time with my father as it was very difficult for him to travel home. After weeks of pestering he took me to Poona airfield where I saw a monster aeroplane waddling in from the airfield towards the hangar, I remember thinking the pilot wasn't very good at steering … two decades later I encountered my first taildragger and swiftly discovered why one has to taxi in zigzags.
So it came to pass that the first aircraft I ever saw up close was that Vultee Vengeance ... at five years old I was lifted into the cockpit and I remember the stick handgrip was level with my eyes and everybody laughed when I asked how the pilot could see out. There were Indian officers present, I do not know if my father was attached to the IAF at that time. He was then posted to Drigh Road, Karachi, where the RAF operated Tempests. We all left for Blighty on Partition in 1947.
We lived in simple bungalows on what I think was Wagholi Road. About two bungalows from us was a narrow gauge railway level crossing which led from a long ramp up the face of a very big quarry. I was told the railway was run by the Sappers and Miners, and Driver Singh hauling two wagons of stone used to take me up and down the line to the depot about two miles away, to the great concern of my poor mother. I didn't mind the heat on the footplate although the ironwork on the wagons was too hot to touch, especially if they had been parked in the afternoon sun. I still wonder if this was the extensive Wagholi Quarry which I can see on Google Earth.
How maintenance crews worked inside the aircraft in the tropics is hard to comprehend. Later at RAF Khormaksar in 1951 I encountered my first air conditioning plant. A portable unit like a trolley-acc chugged away at the hangar door, whence a foot-wide trunk led through my father's office door. He was seldom short of company in his cool office, except when the machine was required for its rightful task of cooling down visiting transports.
Sqn Ldr G Sproates
Krakatoa: Many thanks for that info - it ties up his Sunderland connection but he was a Flt Lt at the time of the award in August 1951, so probably not the CO. (Sunderlands, then Canberras soon after - looks like an example of the 'balanced career' for GD officers one used to hear about.)
Last edited by ICM; 28th Mar 2017 at 12:18. Reason: Factual correction.