Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II
Guest
Posts: n/a
Keeffro (#9454),
True of all too many of us - I was 90 when I took the plunge. Get him to your laptop, show him this Thread, he'll be hooked, you'll get him 'on line' (they got me that way).
Yessss ! (Box Brownie has John Dunbar DFC (RIP) in this way, as you can see. And if you could put an old-time pilot next to you to ask pertinent questions while he's on the phone. But we have to be careful - there have been one or two "Walter Mittys" mixed with the genuine old-timers.
Know nowt about Catalinas (or any other seabird, for that matter). But there was a naughty Catalina Flight Engineer who comes into my story (starts half way down p.151 #3019 here, and the rest is on p.152 #3030).
Danny.
...I approached him after the talk, told him about this thread and asked him if he uses a computer. Unfortunately, he said no, which is really regrettable, as he is such a bright, lively character that he would be a wonderful asset here...
...I thought of recording his talk, took out my phone, hesitated, then thought again and switched it on, not even sure if it would record an hour and a half's talk in one go. When I spoke to him I told him I had recorded most of the talk and asked if he would mind if I transcribed parts of it for this thread, and he immediately said "no problem"......At the very least, I should be able to post some highlights of Ted's story here - the recording volume was low, but I think it should be usable...
Know nowt about Catalinas (or any other seabird, for that matter). But there was a naughty Catalina Flight Engineer who comes into my story (starts half way down p.151 #3019 here, and the rest is on p.152 #3030).
Danny.
Danny/Wander00
Opinion is divided it seems on whether he stayed in Southport or not.... Just found these links to videos on the history of Southport
Opinion is divided it seems on whether he stayed in Southport or not.... Just found these links to videos on the history of Southport
Last edited by andytug; 6th Oct 2016 at 20:35.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Old Southport.
andytug,
What a feast of nostalgia ! Remember the 1947 (was it ?) Bathing Beauty Competition in the Lido.
Dated one of the finalists. Which one ? Can't remember. What was her name ? Can't remember.
Didn't last long, anyway !
Danny.
PS: It's Scaysbrick Hall - not Scarisbrick (the 'a' as in Que sarą, sarą), by the way. D,
What a feast of nostalgia ! Remember the 1947 (was it ?) Bathing Beauty Competition in the Lido.
Dated one of the finalists. Which one ? Can't remember. What was her name ? Can't remember.
Didn't last long, anyway !
Danny.
PS: It's Scaysbrick Hall - not Scarisbrick (the 'a' as in Que sarą, sarą), by the way. D,
@Danny42C
"Dated one of the finalists. Which one ? Can't remember. What was her name ? Can't remember."
Alright, Danny, now what DO you remember about her.
"Dated one of the finalists. Which one ? Can't remember. What was her name ? Can't remember."
Alright, Danny, now what DO you remember about her.
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Often in Jersey, but mainly in the past.
Age: 79
Posts: 7,803
Received 135 Likes
on
63 Posts
Oh, simply fantastic! Thanks, Box Brownie!
"They came upon a mountain stream, which fell into a pool, and here they bathed ... " God, I bet they were pleased to find that. I'm trying to put myself mentally in their situation, and failing completely.
"They came upon a mountain stream, which fell into a pool, and here they bathed ... " God, I bet they were pleased to find that. I'm trying to put myself mentally in their situation, and failing completely.
Thank you Box Brownie! You have presented us with a cornucopia which we can now pick over at leisure.
Danny, can you throw any light on the "E Group Channels" mentioned right at the end? It seems to imply that it was an escape organisation along the lines of those operating in the occupied European countries to effect the return of downed Allied aircrew. Was this similar?
Burma seems to be teeming with people. Every day they are avoiding or confronting the locals, all of whom seem remarkably friendly. Nonetheless they seem determined to avoid contact with the natives if possible and certainly steer clear of their homes. No doubt a wise precaution until they can be sure of whom they are dealing with. This seems to come right at the end when presumably some form of confirmation of reliability enabled them to put themselves into the hands of E Group. The brevity of that part of the report is presumably due to security considerations.
What I am puzzled by is the complete absence of any mention of their parachutes, which are major survival aids. Were they not worn anyway or would they be in stowage's that were difficult to access in a burning crashed aircraft? Whatever the reason they would have had better shelters and thus slept better if they had them to hand.
All in all a fascinating read. I have not managed to plot their route, but with so many waypoints mentioned it would be interesting to know how much distance they had covered at the end. Finally the written notes are, I presume, made by JD. He seems to demure about the strip at the end. I wonder why?
Danny, can you throw any light on the "E Group Channels" mentioned right at the end? It seems to imply that it was an escape organisation along the lines of those operating in the occupied European countries to effect the return of downed Allied aircrew. Was this similar?
Burma seems to be teeming with people. Every day they are avoiding or confronting the locals, all of whom seem remarkably friendly. Nonetheless they seem determined to avoid contact with the natives if possible and certainly steer clear of their homes. No doubt a wise precaution until they can be sure of whom they are dealing with. This seems to come right at the end when presumably some form of confirmation of reliability enabled them to put themselves into the hands of E Group. The brevity of that part of the report is presumably due to security considerations.
What I am puzzled by is the complete absence of any mention of their parachutes, which are major survival aids. Were they not worn anyway or would they be in stowage's that were difficult to access in a burning crashed aircraft? Whatever the reason they would have had better shelters and thus slept better if they had them to hand.
All in all a fascinating read. I have not managed to plot their route, but with so many waypoints mentioned it would be interesting to know how much distance they had covered at the end. Finally the written notes are, I presume, made by JD. He seems to demure about the strip at the end. I wonder why?
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Midlands
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Contact with 'friendly; forces is on the coming page Chug - also a map of their journey.
I am not sure if the notes are by John - the sheets are photo copies that John had.
The place from which they took off was a natural clearing, not a strip cleared in the jungle. Got to dash - going to Cosford.
I am not sure if the notes are by John - the sheets are photo copies that John had.
The place from which they took off was a natural clearing, not a strip cleared in the jungle. Got to dash - going to Cosford.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Missed Opportunities.
Chugalug and BB,
Frankly, no ! Never heard of it. But then, why would we ? If it was some sort of escapers aid organisation, then it would be SOP that the possible beneficiaries of the system would be the very last people to be told about it.
We'd heard vaguely about the mysterious "136 Wing", and everyone knew about the Chindits, but no one knew exactly what they were doing, or where or when or how. Quite right, too - for: "Thou canst not utter what thou dost not know" ("hush-hush, old man, you know how it is, security and all that !")
In consequence we know that 84 were working with the Chindits till the early part of '44, and John Dunbar was with the squadron of L-5s, but we can only expect details of the odd episode, as in his "Five into Four won't go", but most will forever be hidden.
All we knew was that we had the "Dear Friend" leaflets for villagers we might meet on the trek back, and that the Naga tribes in the North were on our side. And we had our moneybelts (60 silver Indian Rupee coins - legal tender in Burma. You may remember the first mistake (they were filled with newly minted 1942 Rupees, which should not be in Burma at all, as the Jap had taken the whole country before they were issued there.
So, as you dished them out to the headmen of helpful villages, you were laying down a bright silver trail of your passage for the Japs hunting you ! Even when these were hurriedly withdrawn and refilled with old coins, there was nothing to stop a local from cutting your throat as you slept. and taking the lot !
It might be useful, in this world of instant communications, to remind people that, out on our jungle "strips" with our squadrons, we had no newspapers (apart from the anodyne, "SEAC News" (?) air dropped monthly by the "SEAC Anson"). No radios, no telephones, occasional letter from home or from pals elsewhere in India, but that was all. Apart from a general knowledge of how the war was going, and what we were doing ourselves, we knew little or nothing of what other Units were doing, even five miles away.
Reverting to the "security" angle, I have no doubt that the units involved made the most of their "hush-up" status for any benefit it brought. For I did it myself, I could con my way round India on the strength of my "Special Duties" Flight. That impressed straight away, and when it was backed up by a quiet mention of the dread words: "Porton Down", further questioning ceased. Fill 'er up, Sir ? Stopping overnight ? - no problem, Sir, we've got a spare 'basha' - is that your kit ? my bearer will look after you. Anything else we can do for you, Sir ?
Why didn't I take a week off from Cannanore (I'm sure the Wg Cdr wouldn't object, the unit ran fine when I was away with malaria), and take a VV up to Agra and have a look at the Taj Mahal ?
Too honest (stupid), I suppose.
Danny.
...Danny, can you throw any light on the "E Group Channels"...
We'd heard vaguely about the mysterious "136 Wing", and everyone knew about the Chindits, but no one knew exactly what they were doing, or where or when or how. Quite right, too - for: "Thou canst not utter what thou dost not know" ("hush-hush, old man, you know how it is, security and all that !")
In consequence we know that 84 were working with the Chindits till the early part of '44, and John Dunbar was with the squadron of L-5s, but we can only expect details of the odd episode, as in his "Five into Four won't go", but most will forever be hidden.
All we knew was that we had the "Dear Friend" leaflets for villagers we might meet on the trek back, and that the Naga tribes in the North were on our side. And we had our moneybelts (60 silver Indian Rupee coins - legal tender in Burma. You may remember the first mistake (they were filled with newly minted 1942 Rupees, which should not be in Burma at all, as the Jap had taken the whole country before they were issued there.
So, as you dished them out to the headmen of helpful villages, you were laying down a bright silver trail of your passage for the Japs hunting you ! Even when these were hurriedly withdrawn and refilled with old coins, there was nothing to stop a local from cutting your throat as you slept. and taking the lot !
It might be useful, in this world of instant communications, to remind people that, out on our jungle "strips" with our squadrons, we had no newspapers (apart from the anodyne, "SEAC News" (?) air dropped monthly by the "SEAC Anson"). No radios, no telephones, occasional letter from home or from pals elsewhere in India, but that was all. Apart from a general knowledge of how the war was going, and what we were doing ourselves, we knew little or nothing of what other Units were doing, even five miles away.
Reverting to the "security" angle, I have no doubt that the units involved made the most of their "hush-up" status for any benefit it brought. For I did it myself, I could con my way round India on the strength of my "Special Duties" Flight. That impressed straight away, and when it was backed up by a quiet mention of the dread words: "Porton Down", further questioning ceased. Fill 'er up, Sir ? Stopping overnight ? - no problem, Sir, we've got a spare 'basha' - is that your kit ? my bearer will look after you. Anything else we can do for you, Sir ?
Why didn't I take a week off from Cannanore (I'm sure the Wg Cdr wouldn't object, the unit ran fine when I was away with malaria), and take a VV up to Agra and have a look at the Taj Mahal ?
Too honest (stupid), I suppose.
Danny.
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: moraira,spain-Norfolk, UK
Age: 82
Posts: 389
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hello Danny, I know that my Father, who was there at the same time as you,
and was involved in dropping supplies did not think much of Wingate.
Will be home(NZ) & reunited with his records soon, will try to dig further.
John
and was involved in dropping supplies did not think much of Wingate.
Will be home(NZ) & reunited with his records soon, will try to dig further.
John
Thank you for the reminder that the last people who know what is going on in a war are the very people that are fighting it, Danny! Even the immediate post war accounts left more questions than answers. No doubt there will be many more t's and i's to get the full treatment in many more years time before we know as much as is ever likely to be known.
However, what we will then lose is the direct evidence from those, like you, who were there. Accounts such as JD's will always be treasured and revered of course, but they can no longer be added to. In contrast, your readiness to answer our incessant questions with the most detailed and precise answers means that we are forever being updated on the experiences of an operational RAF pilot flying in support of 14th Army in Burma.
Who knew that before? Not me. Wikki offers no clue, but does instead come up with Radio SEAC:-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_SEAC
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sri_La...ng_Corporation
Did you ever tune into it, Danny? I see that two of the announcers were a David Jacobs and a Desmond Carrington. I wonder how things turned out for them?
However, what we will then lose is the direct evidence from those, like you, who were there. Accounts such as JD's will always be treasured and revered of course, but they can no longer be added to. In contrast, your readiness to answer our incessant questions with the most detailed and precise answers means that we are forever being updated on the experiences of an operational RAF pilot flying in support of 14th Army in Burma.
"SEAC News" (?) air dropped monthly by the "SEAC Anson").
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_SEAC
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sri_La...ng_Corporation
Did you ever tune into it, Danny? I see that two of the announcers were a David Jacobs and a Desmond Carrington. I wonder how things turned out for them?
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Danny, the Flypast forum thread reminded me of this.. Training Tools at a Vengeance Bomber Operational Training Unit (152 OTU, Peshawar)
http://www.rafcommands.com/wp-conten...erTraining.jpg
http://www.rafcommands.com/wp-conten...erTraining.jpg
Guest
Posts: n/a
Horrors of War, West Benga l, 1942-3.
Chugalug,
"No radio"....."Why not"...."No power"...."Dry batteries, then"...."No batteries" (Scarcer than hen's teeth, scarcer than razor blades - and that's saying something)...."MT battery then ?" ..."Minimum 6V, too much"... "Aircraft battery/Trolley Acc ?"...."Worse, 24V"..."Wind-up one ?"..."Not invented yet".
D. has forgotten all he ever knew about crystals and cat's whiskers, gets out wind-up portable gramophone, puts on much loved, worn, scratched, shellac (record) "Vera Lynn".....
Needs new needle...."No needles"..."Why not"..."All high grade steel reserved for war effort - but never mind lad, here's a bag of sharp thorns, they're nearly as good" ....
"Where did these come from ?"...."Your indefatigible Squadron Entertainments Officer went all the way on first-class rail to Calcutta, endured all the rigours of a six- course dinner and comfortable bed under a fan at the "Grand", then after a four-course breakfast strolled round to the "Hog" Bazarr" and brought you these, a steal at 8 annas bag"...."And he would be ?.....
Why, D. of course ! (What else did he do - not much, as I remember - flew a VV from time to time, and drank a lot of "John Collinses" (must not get dehydrated, you see).
♫....there's a hole in my bucket....♫
Danny.
...Did you ever tune into it, Danny?..
D. has forgotten all he ever knew about crystals and cat's whiskers, gets out wind-up portable gramophone, puts on much loved, worn, scratched, shellac (record) "Vera Lynn".....
Needs new needle...."No needles"..."Why not"..."All high grade steel reserved for war effort - but never mind lad, here's a bag of sharp thorns, they're nearly as good" ....
"Where did these come from ?"...."Your indefatigible Squadron Entertainments Officer went all the way on first-class rail to Calcutta, endured all the rigours of a six- course dinner and comfortable bed under a fan at the "Grand", then after a four-course breakfast strolled round to the "Hog" Bazarr" and brought you these, a steal at 8 annas bag"...."And he would be ?.....
Why, D. of course ! (What else did he do - not much, as I remember - flew a VV from time to time, and drank a lot of "John Collinses" (must not get dehydrated, you see).
♫....there's a hole in my bucket....♫
Danny.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Jagan,
Welcome back - it's been a long time ! Thanks for the link, got it up.
Reaction: Shock, Horror ! Never heard of any of these ideas except the "Link" that we all know too well; but the "Polebrook Trainer" has a similarity with the "Edmunds Trainer" (the thing I found in my logbook on my Spitfire OTU, couldn't remember what it was, but the kindly friends on this Thread dug it out for me).
Turns out to be a pilot's gunsight put on a Link, another chap pushes a trolley past you with a model He-111 or something up on an arm, you have to apply correct deflection.
Anyone who has "flown" a Link knows how utterly hopeless that would be (and was !)
By one of the curious coincidences of war, at the end I had with me a Wg Cdr Edmondes, an Armaments Officer, it was his idea three years before (Edmondes - Edmonds - Edmunds, you see). He was a pilot, too, can only think he never flew a Link, or he would have known what a daft idea it was.
Now 152 OTU at Peshawar was set up, I think, some time after the RAF Squadrons had worked (by trial and error) out how to use a VV as a dive bomber (nobody else in the RAF knew anything about them). I presume they planned their flying training syllabus on our reports; I'd be very interested if you could let us know (on Open Post here) if you have any info on that.
Don't go away now !
Danny.
PS: Hope you are in contact with Peter Smith by now. D.
Welcome back - it's been a long time ! Thanks for the link, got it up.
Reaction: Shock, Horror ! Never heard of any of these ideas except the "Link" that we all know too well; but the "Polebrook Trainer" has a similarity with the "Edmunds Trainer" (the thing I found in my logbook on my Spitfire OTU, couldn't remember what it was, but the kindly friends on this Thread dug it out for me).
Turns out to be a pilot's gunsight put on a Link, another chap pushes a trolley past you with a model He-111 or something up on an arm, you have to apply correct deflection.
Anyone who has "flown" a Link knows how utterly hopeless that would be (and was !)
By one of the curious coincidences of war, at the end I had with me a Wg Cdr Edmondes, an Armaments Officer, it was his idea three years before (Edmondes - Edmonds - Edmunds, you see). He was a pilot, too, can only think he never flew a Link, or he would have known what a daft idea it was.
Now 152 OTU at Peshawar was set up, I think, some time after the RAF Squadrons had worked (by trial and error) out how to use a VV as a dive bomber (nobody else in the RAF knew anything about them). I presume they planned their flying training syllabus on our reports; I'd be very interested if you could let us know (on Open Post here) if you have any info on that.
Don't go away now !
Danny.
PS: Hope you are in contact with Peter Smith by now. D.
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Midlands
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Looking up 136 Force it would appear they were an arm of SOE in Burma.
Attached are the only two copies of Norman Bolitho's account that John had, of their journey through the jungle and a map - I would guess that Bolitho wrote it for the 177 Squadron magazine ? It throws a little more light on how they met friendly forces and also the arrival of the L5's
John regularly attended their squadron re unions
Attached are the only two copies of Norman Bolitho's account that John had, of their journey through the jungle and a map - I would guess that Bolitho wrote it for the 177 Squadron magazine ? It throws a little more light on how they met friendly forces and also the arrival of the L5's
John regularly attended their squadron re unions
Danny:-
Which rather trumped listening to David Jacobs and Desmond Carrington (for want of batteries), and if it's not too ungallant, Vera Lynn (for want of needles) I'm sure!
BTW, Danny, you mentioned 136 Wing as a known unknown. It would still seem to be, as both Wiki and Air of Authority seem pretty vague about it (though I'm not a member of the latter which might be the explanation for that). Have you any idea of what they were flying, from where, and against what (we can guess whom)? All subject to the OSA of course. I wouldn't want to be the cause of you becoming the guest of HM, or helping with her enquiries you understand...
...and drank a lot of "John Collinses" (must not get dehydrated, you see).
BTW, Danny, you mentioned 136 Wing as a known unknown. It would still seem to be, as both Wiki and Air of Authority seem pretty vague about it (though I'm not a member of the latter which might be the explanation for that). Have you any idea of what they were flying, from where, and against what (we can guess whom)? All subject to the OSA of course. I wouldn't want to be the cause of you becoming the guest of HM, or helping with her enquiries you understand...
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: s e england
Posts: 103
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Have been reading the Burma and Chindit threads with interest. As I mentioned 'pilots brevet' a while ago, my father ( Harold Pettinger MC) was the Captain (later Major) in charge of the 'special forces' unit who arranged the air drops to support the Chindits in the jungle. On clearing his house ( he died 2 years ago aged 93) we found the radio code books the Chindits used to request their needs, which we donated to the Imperial War Museum. The requests were procured , 'junglised' and then either dropped over a map reference , or, later on, flown to a jungle airstrip. My father often went out in the Dakotas and into one of the jungle airstrips ('White City' I think?) . He spoke of dropping a number of a very early type of outboard motors plus £10000 of gold sovereigns over a map reference and often speculated if the gold was ever retrieved or whether it is still lying in the jungle. The outboard motors were 'run in' by placing them in oil drums filled with water and left to run. I assume they were used by troops to cross the larger rivers? Dad also arranged for the manufacture by his engineers of the brass plaque that was placed over the site where Wingate died in the air crash. This plaque is also now in the Imperial war Museum, having been later replaced by something grander. Dad thought highly of Wingate as a leader and soldier, but said he was mad as a hatter, and would not have survived in the post war army.