Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II
Understood MPN11 and have also posted in Aviation History & Nostalgia sub forum, but this thread gets most views of WW2 era aircrew and may come up with the answer.
My point is there are many instances of efforts to identify crew and crashed aircraft of Bomber Command etc and this could be an opportunity to do something in return.
My point is there are many instances of efforts to identify crew and crashed aircraft of Bomber Command etc and this could be an opportunity to do something in return.
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Fl Lt John Dunbar DFC (RIP) Five into four won't go
Taken from two tapes
That was the beginning of it. We were dispersed around the airfield and asked if we had got
our tents etc, to which the answer was no, they were back in Calcutta. Another example of
administrative excellence confronting us. I had to report to a Major Gibson who was G ops 4Corps
and to take twelve pilots with me. It transpired that the squadron was to be split between the three
Corps of the army in India. He outlined the intention of the Corps to go straight through the jungle
to the Irrawaddy in total radio silence. Having just broken out of Imphal, 4Corps had the almost
impossible task of of getting through the jungle to the Irrawaddy river in total silence. The Japanese
did not believe it possible that an army could move through the jungle without their knowledge. All
the communications on the advance to Rangoon were to be by air. We were to drop the order of
battle each morning. There is a story there but I will come back to it later. We were also to be the
means of taking in and out the odd bod from 163 Force who were operating behind the Japanese
lines. Gibson explained that General Messervey was in a meeting but would see me later. When we
did meet I had the most almighty of bollockings. We should have been there two weeks previously
and 4Corps had already broken out of Imphal.
What a leader General Messervey was. I was to be his personal pilot and got to know him very
well indeed. I flew him every other day. He always called me Ginger. Contrast that with a situation I
had after we had been in the jungle for some months. I had done three trips that day, nasty nasty
ones, and was stripped to the waist dragging a flannel over me. Bear in mind that during the last
month of our advance on Rangoon we had just one pint of water a day and one eighth rations. I was
suddenly aware of a presence and there standing in the jungle in the middle of a war was this most
immaculately turned out Grp Ctn. “ Don't you normally stand to attention in the presence of a senior
officer?” I said words that I should not have spoken. Later I went to the signal tent and composed a
signal asking to be replaced immediately. The following morning Messervey sent for me, he
had my signal in his hand. “ What is all this about you wanting to leave us Ginger? Is it that Grp
Ctn D....? Let me tell you, every time he sees me he almost wets himself. You are going nowhere. If
you have any problem with him you come and see me”
We lived like animals, no mess, no batman and we put our own tents up. Food was basic “ How
would sir like his corned beef this evening ?”The temperature was around 120deg. Our trips in the
L5 were usually about one hour duration, no parachutes, we were too low for them to have been of
any use, a pistol and hand grenades we had scrounged. Bear in mind that the strips or clearings were
often behind enemy lines and we were likely to be shot at each time we took off. Each flight was
therefore deemed to be an op. In all I did 288 hours over enemy territory/the jungle. You can count
yourself lucky to survive that. I did 396 trips. We would be in our tents at night listening to the guns
pooping off.
Once beyond the Irrawaddy, I would fly the general to observe actions. At times I would refuse
to fly him over the battlefield, and he would say 'It's all right Ginger' and I would relent. On one
occasion when I was on another op he suddenly wanted to fly and Jimmy Norris took him. Jimmy
returned and said to me ' The general tapped me on the shoulder and wanted to go down and take a
look. Flack suddenly broke around us and I said, awfully sorry, but we are going to have to go
back. They are shooting at us. He said 'Why? They aren't hitting us'
To be continued
Taken from two tapes
That was the beginning of it. We were dispersed around the airfield and asked if we had got
our tents etc, to which the answer was no, they were back in Calcutta. Another example of
administrative excellence confronting us. I had to report to a Major Gibson who was G ops 4Corps
and to take twelve pilots with me. It transpired that the squadron was to be split between the three
Corps of the army in India. He outlined the intention of the Corps to go straight through the jungle
to the Irrawaddy in total radio silence. Having just broken out of Imphal, 4Corps had the almost
impossible task of of getting through the jungle to the Irrawaddy river in total silence. The Japanese
did not believe it possible that an army could move through the jungle without their knowledge. All
the communications on the advance to Rangoon were to be by air. We were to drop the order of
battle each morning. There is a story there but I will come back to it later. We were also to be the
means of taking in and out the odd bod from 163 Force who were operating behind the Japanese
lines. Gibson explained that General Messervey was in a meeting but would see me later. When we
did meet I had the most almighty of bollockings. We should have been there two weeks previously
and 4Corps had already broken out of Imphal.
What a leader General Messervey was. I was to be his personal pilot and got to know him very
well indeed. I flew him every other day. He always called me Ginger. Contrast that with a situation I
had after we had been in the jungle for some months. I had done three trips that day, nasty nasty
ones, and was stripped to the waist dragging a flannel over me. Bear in mind that during the last
month of our advance on Rangoon we had just one pint of water a day and one eighth rations. I was
suddenly aware of a presence and there standing in the jungle in the middle of a war was this most
immaculately turned out Grp Ctn. “ Don't you normally stand to attention in the presence of a senior
officer?” I said words that I should not have spoken. Later I went to the signal tent and composed a
signal asking to be replaced immediately. The following morning Messervey sent for me, he
had my signal in his hand. “ What is all this about you wanting to leave us Ginger? Is it that Grp
Ctn D....? Let me tell you, every time he sees me he almost wets himself. You are going nowhere. If
you have any problem with him you come and see me”
We lived like animals, no mess, no batman and we put our own tents up. Food was basic “ How
would sir like his corned beef this evening ?”The temperature was around 120deg. Our trips in the
L5 were usually about one hour duration, no parachutes, we were too low for them to have been of
any use, a pistol and hand grenades we had scrounged. Bear in mind that the strips or clearings were
often behind enemy lines and we were likely to be shot at each time we took off. Each flight was
therefore deemed to be an op. In all I did 288 hours over enemy territory/the jungle. You can count
yourself lucky to survive that. I did 396 trips. We would be in our tents at night listening to the guns
pooping off.
Once beyond the Irrawaddy, I would fly the general to observe actions. At times I would refuse
to fly him over the battlefield, and he would say 'It's all right Ginger' and I would relent. On one
occasion when I was on another op he suddenly wanted to fly and Jimmy Norris took him. Jimmy
returned and said to me ' The general tapped me on the shoulder and wanted to go down and take a
look. Flack suddenly broke around us and I said, awfully sorry, but we are going to have to go
back. They are shooting at us. He said 'Why? They aren't hitting us'
To be continued
Last edited by Box Brownie; 27th Sep 2016 at 09:58. Reason: deletion of word
Icare9
Re your search for details of the shot down Ju88 have you seen the extensive coverage here?: http://www.astoft2.co.uk/hants/hoplandsmemorial.htm
It doesn't come up with the answer you want, but the list of sources in the bibliography at the end of the article is impressive.
I wish you luck!
Re your search for details of the shot down Ju88 have you seen the extensive coverage here?: http://www.astoft2.co.uk/hants/hoplandsmemorial.htm
It doesn't come up with the answer you want, but the list of sources in the bibliography at the end of the article is impressive.
I wish you luck!
Thanks warmtoast (and notthemainline, who is a new member so his post hasn't appeared yet, but did get his PM)
I need to sqaure the circle.
We have 4 known crew members of the Ju 88 who were removed by Army truck on 21 August.
4 unidentified Germans were buried in Chartham cemetery, Kent with Dates of Death 22 August in Grave O74.
Those 4 were then taken to Cannock Chase in the 60's and reburied as 4 unknowns 22 August 1940 in Block 9 Grave 48.
There are no other unknown German aircrews for 21/22 August so CIRCUMSTANTIALLY they appear to be the 4 from the Ju88 in Hampshire.
But why Chartham?
Was the military hospital there used as a convenient collection point for Luftwaffe casualties, given the BoB was raging overhead?
That's what I'll need to prove beyond doubt that the 4 from the Ju 88 were killed 21st August and then their identities lost and shown as Killed 22 August, the date of burial at Chartham, NOT the Date of Death.
Yes and silly me confused ChartHAM with ChartWELL, so no link to Churchill!
I need to sqaure the circle.
We have 4 known crew members of the Ju 88 who were removed by Army truck on 21 August.
4 unidentified Germans were buried in Chartham cemetery, Kent with Dates of Death 22 August in Grave O74.
Those 4 were then taken to Cannock Chase in the 60's and reburied as 4 unknowns 22 August 1940 in Block 9 Grave 48.
There are no other unknown German aircrews for 21/22 August so CIRCUMSTANTIALLY they appear to be the 4 from the Ju88 in Hampshire.
But why Chartham?
Was the military hospital there used as a convenient collection point for Luftwaffe casualties, given the BoB was raging overhead?
That's what I'll need to prove beyond doubt that the 4 from the Ju 88 were killed 21st August and then their identities lost and shown as Killed 22 August, the date of burial at Chartham, NOT the Date of Death.
Yes and silly me confused ChartHAM with ChartWELL, so no link to Churchill!
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Hamlet without the Prince ?
Box Brownie (pp John Dunbar DFC (RIP), #9385,
This is perplexing in the absence of place names and dates. To start with, I had a root round Google Wiki to try and get in the picture. So, "from the top":
"The administrative tail wags the operational dog" - again. 'Twas ever thus... What airfield ? When ?
Again, Dates ? Place ? Wiki helps on 4 Corps:
Now we must have broken out of Imphal and got across the Arakan Yomas into the central plain of Burma, where our armour could operate effectively. After my time, I'm afraid (I was carried out hors de combat at the end of February of 1944, at the beginning of the Second Battle of Arakan).
Wiki helps again:
This, of course, was the famous "Battle of the Admin Box", Surrounded by Japanese, Messervy held his position, supplied by the Dakotas of the RAF (and C-47s of the A.A.C.?) (This was where the L-5s were doing the casevacs referred to in my #9377).
Now the tables were turned, it was the encircling Japanese who were starving and cut off from supplies, their advance collapsed, Messervy steadily pushed on South until Akyab was retaken without a fight in the New Year (and without the need for the planned amphibious attack) [details from Wiki].
Arakan was cleared of the Jap, the tunnels through the Yomas (which we'd bombed shut early on) must have been reopened and the "Okeydoke" (Ngakyedauk) Pass freed. Messervy's tanks (15 Dvn - the "Crossed Hockey Sticks") could now trundle through into Central Burma. The victorious end was now in no doubt.
And where was the Vengeance (which had done so much to help the 14th Army up to the Monsoon of 1944 ?) Pulled back out of the line then, kicking its heels and frittered away on odd jobs all over India, when it could have helped so much more in the End Game...
Ah well. (there is a lot more meat in #9385 - but let's get the details from that Logbook, BB, please - and we can start putting all this in a timeframe).
Danny.
This is perplexing in the absence of place names and dates. To start with, I had a root round Google Wiki to try and get in the picture. So, "from the top":
...That was the beginning of it. We were dispersed around the airfield and asked if we had got our tents etc, to which the answer was no, they were back in Calcutta. Another example of administrative excellence confronting us...
...I had to report to a Major Gibson who was G ops 4Corps...
...Central Front 1944/45[edit]
Main article: Battle of Meiktila and Mandalay
The Fourteenth Army, now consisting of IV Corps and XXXIII Corps, made the main offensive effort into Burma...
Main article: Battle of Meiktila and Mandalay
The Fourteenth Army, now consisting of IV Corps and XXXIII Corps, made the main offensive effort into Burma...
Wiki helps again:
...In July 1943 Messervy was appointed GOC Indian 7th Infantry Division which was sent to the Arakan in Burma to join XV Corps in September. In the Japanese offensive in February 1944, despite having his headquarters overrun and scattered and his supply lines compromised, Messervy's brigades conducted a successful defence whilst being supplied by air...
Now the tables were turned, it was the encircling Japanese who were starving and cut off from supplies, their advance collapsed, Messervy steadily pushed on South until Akyab was retaken without a fight in the New Year (and without the need for the planned amphibious attack) [details from Wiki].
Arakan was cleared of the Jap, the tunnels through the Yomas (which we'd bombed shut early on) must have been reopened and the "Okeydoke" (Ngakyedauk) Pass freed. Messervy's tanks (15 Dvn - the "Crossed Hockey Sticks") could now trundle through into Central Burma. The victorious end was now in no doubt.
And where was the Vengeance (which had done so much to help the 14th Army up to the Monsoon of 1944 ?) Pulled back out of the line then, kicking its heels and frittered away on odd jobs all over India, when it could have helped so much more in the End Game...
Ah well. (there is a lot more meat in #9385 - but let's get the details from that Logbook, BB, please - and we can start putting all this in a timeframe).
Danny.
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John's son Andy should be back to us soon Danny. I'm pleased to say the next instalment does have precise dates and name places.
Attached is a page torn out of a book by John
Attached is a page torn out of a book by John
Last edited by Box Brownie; 27th Sep 2016 at 14:51. Reason: word added
Any of you multi engine multi crew chaps (who saw it) like to comment on the CRM aspect of "Air Crash
My initial time in the V Force was blighted by one of these but fortunately he was replaced by somebody more human who was prepared to admit that I was better at cross wind landings than he was.
In my particular civil world it was being infused into our system in the eighties and I supported it entirely/. Being a lazy sod it easier for the co-pilot, who had just done the course, to sort out any slight problems with the aircraft.
When I arrived in China the culture was completely different. The custom was that 1st Officers were strictly 'yes' men and the flight proceeded as the captain desired. A part of my job was to instil a western oriented attitude for the whole crew. This would sometimes get an incredulous response when you asked what they would do in the present circumstances.
It took time, not always successful. We would hear stories of disasters being avoided by pure luck with an old Chinese captain in charge but they have all retired by now.
The present set up and attitude of the aircrew of my previous operation in China can hold there own with the best in the world. I was part of their training and I am proud of it.
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Icare9
Also posted to new thread
Ju88 shot down Kings Somborne 21 August 1940
RE: Chartham Hospital and Luftwaffe casualties from the Battle of Britain - have you seen...
War diary of "Ken Hulbert, RAMC (1) - Battle of Britain by Anne Richards"
BBC - WW2 People's War - Ken Hulbert, RAMC (1) - Battle of Britain
Sara
Also posted to new thread
Ju88 shot down Kings Somborne 21 August 1940
Circumstantially, there appear to be no other group of Luftwaffe unknown casualties for 21/22 August, but obviously to be sure, I need older heads to clarify if Chartham Hospital was used as a "collection point" for Luftwaffe casualties from the BoB?
War diary of "Ken Hulbert, RAMC (1) - Battle of Britain by Anne Richards"
BBC - WW2 People's War - Ken Hulbert, RAMC (1) - Battle of Britain
Sara
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"It ain't half hot, Mum !"
Box Brownie (pp John Dunbar DFC [RIP], still on #9385),
While we're waiting for the Logbook details, we can still add suupport to John's story
I recall that when on arrival in Worli (Bombay Transit Camp end 1942) water was very short, in one of my Posts I recall saying that I'd developed a technique for having a bath in a pint mug.
Now I hardly dare to say it, but isn't our John laying it on a bit thick ? One Pint of water a day and 1/8 Ration a day for a month ! Is there no rice in Burma ? Are there not scrawney chickens in the villages ? Do they not lay eggs ? Are there no "K"rations ? What are the Japanese troops living on ? Are they starving to death, too ?
It might have felt like it. Googled three big towns running down the middle * (ie the hottest) of Burma; Wiki tells me as follows:
Highest Recorded Myitkina.............. Mandalay, ..........Prome (Pyay).
(month) ..........(May)108.5°F... ...(Apr)118.4°F#......(May)102.0°F
Normal High...... (same 91.9°F (Av) 101.1°F (Normal.. (As Above High)
Note #: 1889-present (over a 127 years period - doesn't say which year).
John's 120°F sounds improbable.
Note *: BB, a line joining the first three matches your map #9390.
The highest temperature ever recorded in India occurred on 19 May 2016 in Phalodi, Jodhpur District, Rajasthan at 51.0 °C (123.8 °F). My personal best was on a train in the Sindh # desert, going up to Quetta in July 1944 (126°F). (Quetta; Record High (Aug) 107.6°F Normal High 96.6°F - in Pakistan, and 5,000 ft amsl).
Note #;The British conquered Sindh in 1843. General Charles Napier is said to have reported victory to the Governor General with a one-word telegram, namely; Peccavi – or I have sinned (Latin). In fact, this pun first appeared as a cartoon in Punch magazine.[Wiki]
Another treasured childhood memory shattered !
I was in Assam only in the winter. In Calcutta and the Arakan, the summer (monsoon) was wet and sticky, but not too hot. You can stand dry heat (Quetta) much better than damp heat (Burma).
Danny.
While we're waiting for the Logbook details, we can still add suupport to John's story
...stripped to the waist dragging a flannel over me. Bear in mind that during the last month of our advance on Rangoon we had just one pint of water a day and one eighth rations...
Now I hardly dare to say it, but isn't our John laying it on a bit thick ? One Pint of water a day and 1/8 Ration a day for a month ! Is there no rice in Burma ? Are there not scrawney chickens in the villages ? Do they not lay eggs ? Are there no "K"rations ? What are the Japanese troops living on ? Are they starving to death, too ?
...The temperature was around 120deg...
Highest Recorded Myitkina.............. Mandalay, ..........Prome (Pyay).
(month) ..........(May)108.5°F... ...(Apr)118.4°F#......(May)102.0°F
Normal High...... (same 91.9°F (Av) 101.1°F (Normal.. (As Above High)
Note #: 1889-present (over a 127 years period - doesn't say which year).
John's 120°F sounds improbable.
Note *: BB, a line joining the first three matches your map #9390.
The highest temperature ever recorded in India occurred on 19 May 2016 in Phalodi, Jodhpur District, Rajasthan at 51.0 °C (123.8 °F). My personal best was on a train in the Sindh # desert, going up to Quetta in July 1944 (126°F). (Quetta; Record High (Aug) 107.6°F Normal High 96.6°F - in Pakistan, and 5,000 ft amsl).
Note #;The British conquered Sindh in 1843. General Charles Napier is said to have reported victory to the Governor General with a one-word telegram, namely; Peccavi – or I have sinned (Latin). In fact, this pun first appeared as a cartoon in Punch magazine.[Wiki]
Another treasured childhood memory shattered !
I was in Assam only in the winter. In Calcutta and the Arakan, the summer (monsoon) was wet and sticky, but not too hot. You can stand dry heat (Quetta) much better than damp heat (Burma).
Danny.
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Mosquito's first flight on Monday 26th. Ardmore, NZ. Hope the link works...
4343432432_zpsxbuez827.jpg Photo by gavsgt | Photobucket
Cheers
Octane
4343432432_zpsxbuez827.jpg Photo by gavsgt | Photobucket
Cheers
Octane
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Lovely picture 
I think that we have to face the fact that any questions occasioned by John Dunbar's story are going to remain unanswered. Doesn't mean they shouldn't be asked, they should. It just means that we have to go with the flow of JD's narrative (as recorded by BB) and try to piece in the missing chunks if we can.
It seems to me, Danny, that it is less a case of Hamlet without the Prince and rather vice versa. He's clearly in charge of some 30 odd pilots and aircraft, but with what rank and what is he commanding, a Squadron (you'd think so at that size), a Flight, a Detachment? He doesn't say and so far we can only guess.
I think that we should remember that the tapes (ie the story so far) are verbal and unrehearsed (guessing that though, I admit). So he's going to be less than precise, no doubt egging the pudding at times. When we get to the book (Five into Four Won't Go) I would expect a rather more reliable account. Certainly we cannot hold Box Brownie responsible for any short comings. He is merely the messenger, armed only with his tapes, the book, and soon we hope the logbooks.
That's good enough for me. I'll go along with the flow of this tale, take note of issues raised by those intimately knowledgeable of the time and place (no names, no pack-drill, eh?), and hopefully learn something new about L5's in Burma (which will be everything in my case).
So thank you, Box Brownie. Chaos reigns, people are to be dispersed left right and centre, conditions will be very challenging, so all Ops Normal therefore! Press on Sir, and again, thank you!
It seems to me, Danny, that it is less a case of Hamlet without the Prince and rather vice versa. He's clearly in charge of some 30 odd pilots and aircraft, but with what rank and what is he commanding, a Squadron (you'd think so at that size), a Flight, a Detachment? He doesn't say and so far we can only guess.
I think that we should remember that the tapes (ie the story so far) are verbal and unrehearsed (guessing that though, I admit). So he's going to be less than precise, no doubt egging the pudding at times. When we get to the book (Five into Four Won't Go) I would expect a rather more reliable account. Certainly we cannot hold Box Brownie responsible for any short comings. He is merely the messenger, armed only with his tapes, the book, and soon we hope the logbooks.
That's good enough for me. I'll go along with the flow of this tale, take note of issues raised by those intimately knowledgeable of the time and place (no names, no pack-drill, eh?), and hopefully learn something new about L5's in Burma (which will be everything in my case).
So thank you, Box Brownie. Chaos reigns, people are to be dispersed left right and centre, conditions will be very challenging, so all Ops Normal therefore! Press on Sir, and again, thank you!
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And armed with fifteen years of friendship Chug. Thank you for your kind comments. To give some background, the tapes were made around 2004
John had been interviewed twice, once by someone who had already gone into print about the L5 in Burma and the second time by a well known chap who failed to mention the 'Five into four wont go' story in his print. We regularly spoke of John's time in Burma and the tapes were done in a very relaxed manner over some time with the intention that only the Five into four story would be told. The anecdotes were repeated and I had heard them many times before, and were repeated at times on all three tapes. Aeroplane changed that. The following year, Aeroplane ran a special VJ-Day 60th anniversary section. The Editor knew of this story and featured it, though obviously in a much reduced version, but including the story - at last! John was somewhat disappointed that the unit did not receive a squadron number
And, at last we get to the 'Five into four won't go' story tomorrow.
Photos. 1. A letter from Lord Mountbatten to John
2 John and two of his pilots
John had been interviewed twice, once by someone who had already gone into print about the L5 in Burma and the second time by a well known chap who failed to mention the 'Five into four wont go' story in his print. We regularly spoke of John's time in Burma and the tapes were done in a very relaxed manner over some time with the intention that only the Five into four story would be told. The anecdotes were repeated and I had heard them many times before, and were repeated at times on all three tapes. Aeroplane changed that. The following year, Aeroplane ran a special VJ-Day 60th anniversary section. The Editor knew of this story and featured it, though obviously in a much reduced version, but including the story - at last! John was somewhat disappointed that the unit did not receive a squadron number
And, at last we get to the 'Five into four won't go' story tomorrow.
Photos. 1. A letter from Lord Mountbatten to John
2 John and two of his pilots
Just a public and very appreciated "Thanks" to savimosh01
Chartham hospital certainly had a lot of BoB casualties.
Just need to know why on earth Luftwaffe dead from Hampshire would be taken there.
Their identities were known in Hampshire on 21st August; no other unidentified Germans are unaccounted for for 21 or 22 August;
$ Germans were buried in Chartham cemetery Grave O74 on 22nd August, with that being used as Date of Death (not date of burial) but unidentified.
Those 4 in Chartham were reburied in Cannock as "Unknowns" DIED 22 August.
If these 4 aren't one and the same crew, then where else can 4 Germans appear from?
But I need confirmation they are from the Hampshire Ju 88
Chartham hospital certainly had a lot of BoB casualties.
Just need to know why on earth Luftwaffe dead from Hampshire would be taken there.
Their identities were known in Hampshire on 21st August; no other unidentified Germans are unaccounted for for 21 or 22 August;
$ Germans were buried in Chartham cemetery Grave O74 on 22nd August, with that being used as Date of Death (not date of burial) but unidentified.
Those 4 in Chartham were reburied in Cannock as "Unknowns" DIED 22 August.
If these 4 aren't one and the same crew, then where else can 4 Germans appear from?
But I need confirmation they are from the Hampshire Ju 88
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A photo of five rather lean pilots. Note the name on the engine panel is 'General Ginger' - this was John's L5.
L to R Fg Offs Robby Robinson, Jimmy Norris Woodhouse DFC (sitting on the wing) Flt Lt John Dunbar DFC Fg Off Dave Proctor
L to R Fg Offs Robby Robinson, Jimmy Norris Woodhouse DFC (sitting on the wing) Flt Lt John Dunbar DFC Fg Off Dave Proctor
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Chugalug,
I consider myself well and justly chastened, Sir ! You are, of course, absolutely right and I should not have jumped in so soon, and so critical of the details, to get the time and place frame for the story.
I shall now be patient, and apologise to BB for harrying him for "furher and better particulars". Let's hear the whole story, and wait for the log book, then we'll sort it out at leisure.
I too, wondered about John, he now seems to be a man of considerable authority (although being a personal pilot to a Lieut-General carrys cosiderable 'clout' - he's an ADC in all but name).
In sackcloth and ashes, a penitent
Danny.
I consider myself well and justly chastened, Sir ! You are, of course, absolutely right and I should not have jumped in so soon, and so critical of the details, to get the time and place frame for the story.
I shall now be patient, and apologise to BB for harrying him for "furher and better particulars". Let's hear the whole story, and wait for the log book, then we'll sort it out at leisure.
I too, wondered about John, he now seems to be a man of considerable authority (although being a personal pilot to a Lieut-General carrys cosiderable 'clout' - he's an ADC in all but name).
In sackcloth and ashes, a penitent
Danny.