Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II
Here in Melbourne the Royal Victorian Aero Club holds the "Dawn Patrol" each year. Was Sunday 18th this year. Dozens of civil aircraft depart Moorabbin at dawn, overfly the Shrine of Remembrance and continue on for a circuit around Port Phillip Bay.
So not forgotten out here...
So not forgotten out here...
Here in Melbourne the Royal Victorian Aero Club holds the "Dawn Patrol" each year. Was Sunday 18th this year. Dozens of civil aircraft depart Moorabbin at dawn, overfly the Shrine of Remembrance and continue on for a circuit around Port Phillip Bay.
So not forgotten out here...
So not forgotten out here...
BP, how many have room for veterans? Maybe something for next year, the Odd Bods are falling off the perch with increasing rapidity.
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Danny et al
Re 'BoB', Forces TV finally posted this link
Battle Of Britain 75: Service Of Thanksgiving | Forces TV
PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)
Re 'BoB', Forces TV finally posted this link
Battle Of Britain 75: Service Of Thanksgiving | Forces TV
PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)
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AM Pamphlet 144 & Heaton Park Guide
TapHappy, ref your #3909 I am having difficulty in moving scanned copies of the above onto this thread in a reasonably legible form, so suggest you let me have your email address and I will send them to you as email attachments - can also do this for anyone else who may be interested.
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Flt. Lt John Dunbar DFC Five into four won't go 1
Taken from two tape recordings. John never thought the story of his pilots or a rescue from the Burmese jungle would ever be told. I was able to have an edited version published in Aeroplane during 2005.
John began his training at No26 EFTS at Theale, Berks on December 31st 1941. The course was interrupted when he was posted to No 31 EFTS in Alberta Canada followed by No38 SFTS at Estevan.
" At Estevan we started our training on Mk1 Ansons that had been used operationally in the UK, but soon progressed to the Canadian built Mk1V. No more winding the undercarriage up. On one occasion the chief flying instructor organised 2hrs of night flying for each student while he partied in the mess. This was my second night solo and I took off at midnight to do circuits and bumps. We could hear sounds from the mess and could tell the party was in full swing - we were left to our own devices.
On my first downwind leg problems arose. It was standard practice to at 1,000 ft to throttle back both engines to check the stall warning device was working, then open up and complete the rest of the checks. On opening up all went quiet! All I could do was turn towards the airfield and point the aircraft at the ground. It was pitch black and I struck the ground quite hard. The aircraft broke into a thousand pieces leaving me sitting in what remained of the cockpit, without a scratch. I got out but not a soul stirred or came near, so I began the long walk to dispersal. When I reached the flight office the duty NCO, Flt Sgt Long, looked at me and I'll never forget the look of disbelief on his face, before we went out to look at the wreckage. After an expletive, I was told to go and get a cup of tea, and trudged yet another mile to the cookhouse. Here I was met by another NCO who hated Long and refused to let me have a cup of tea unless I had a chit. Yet another slog back to Long resulted in him exploding and insisting I accompany him back to the cookhouse whereupon the two NCO's set about fighting each other. By this time I had had enough. No one had told me of their feud. It was four in the morning so I left them to it and went to bed. Amazingly, although a new Anson had been written off, no officer was involved and no-one said a word."
John was presented with his wings on September 10 1942, aged 19years and 3 months.
" Fifty four of us passed out on the SFTS course. You can imagine my feelings upon discovering that I was to be retained as a flying instructor. Not knowing that I had come top of the course I stormed into the Group Captain and said what a disgraceful decision it was, that I was the youngest on the course, that I was totally ill-equipped to be a flying instructor, and wanted to go on operations. He sat there and then said 'You are our choice and are going To No1 Flying Instructors School at Arnprior'. At this I again refused to go. He then said that if I still refused, I had the alternative of going to a radio operators' school at Winnipeg. where I would spend the rest of the war flying Tiger Moths on circuits and bumps with trainee radio operators in the back. Needless to say, I became a flying instructor for two years"
To be continued
Taken from two tape recordings. John never thought the story of his pilots or a rescue from the Burmese jungle would ever be told. I was able to have an edited version published in Aeroplane during 2005.
John began his training at No26 EFTS at Theale, Berks on December 31st 1941. The course was interrupted when he was posted to No 31 EFTS in Alberta Canada followed by No38 SFTS at Estevan.
" At Estevan we started our training on Mk1 Ansons that had been used operationally in the UK, but soon progressed to the Canadian built Mk1V. No more winding the undercarriage up. On one occasion the chief flying instructor organised 2hrs of night flying for each student while he partied in the mess. This was my second night solo and I took off at midnight to do circuits and bumps. We could hear sounds from the mess and could tell the party was in full swing - we were left to our own devices.
On my first downwind leg problems arose. It was standard practice to at 1,000 ft to throttle back both engines to check the stall warning device was working, then open up and complete the rest of the checks. On opening up all went quiet! All I could do was turn towards the airfield and point the aircraft at the ground. It was pitch black and I struck the ground quite hard. The aircraft broke into a thousand pieces leaving me sitting in what remained of the cockpit, without a scratch. I got out but not a soul stirred or came near, so I began the long walk to dispersal. When I reached the flight office the duty NCO, Flt Sgt Long, looked at me and I'll never forget the look of disbelief on his face, before we went out to look at the wreckage. After an expletive, I was told to go and get a cup of tea, and trudged yet another mile to the cookhouse. Here I was met by another NCO who hated Long and refused to let me have a cup of tea unless I had a chit. Yet another slog back to Long resulted in him exploding and insisting I accompany him back to the cookhouse whereupon the two NCO's set about fighting each other. By this time I had had enough. No one had told me of their feud. It was four in the morning so I left them to it and went to bed. Amazingly, although a new Anson had been written off, no officer was involved and no-one said a word."
John was presented with his wings on September 10 1942, aged 19years and 3 months.
" Fifty four of us passed out on the SFTS course. You can imagine my feelings upon discovering that I was to be retained as a flying instructor. Not knowing that I had come top of the course I stormed into the Group Captain and said what a disgraceful decision it was, that I was the youngest on the course, that I was totally ill-equipped to be a flying instructor, and wanted to go on operations. He sat there and then said 'You are our choice and are going To No1 Flying Instructors School at Arnprior'. At this I again refused to go. He then said that if I still refused, I had the alternative of going to a radio operators' school at Winnipeg. where I would spend the rest of the war flying Tiger Moths on circuits and bumps with trainee radio operators in the back. Needless to say, I became a flying instructor for two years"
To be continued
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Good material, Box Brownie 
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Thank you MPN11. I am still fighting my way through another tape and one is missing. John would go off at tangents, but that was great, it brought out the wider picture. The nice thing was that he didn't think any of the recordings would be published so never shot a line.
Speaking of shooting a line, I have a line book from a WW11 Hampden
squadron, which I treasure
Speaking of shooting a line, I have a line book from a WW11 Hampden
squadron, which I treasure
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The 'off-piste' material is often more valuable than the "Official History" stuff.
Slightly OT, but I think relevant in context, I've just finished a couple of US Civil War books [one of my favourite Military topics] on Kindle.
One was a diary [effectively the Operational Record Book] of the 13th New Hampshire Regt, detailing all the little things that went on when they weren't fighting for the Union side. "Regt in Camp, felling trees to make a log road", that sort of thing. https://www.amazon.com/Three-Years-D...ears+and+a+day
The other is the diary of a Confederate, original a Georgia Militia private but with serious family connections, who when the War started rode up to Virginia to seek employment as an Aide to [then] Brig-Gen Longstreet. Honorary commission as Capt, later proper commission, and rose to Col on Longstreet's Staff in what was then called their Assistant Adjutant General's Department, before being promoted Brig-Gen himself and given a Brigade - and shortly after wounded in battle. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Recollectio...+Staff+Officer.
They don't tell 'History' but instead penned sketches which show, as no formal record does, what it's actually like 'out there'. My long reading of the War Between The States, as the South prefers to call it, has been illuminated hugely over the last few weeks [from both sides]. i knew about the BIG things, but absolutely nothing about the daily 'existence' of those involved.
So does this Thread of Threads. The little details expounded by several posters give those of us who were NOT there a much better feeling of what it was like.
Keep going!
Slightly OT, but I think relevant in context, I've just finished a couple of US Civil War books [one of my favourite Military topics] on Kindle.
One was a diary [effectively the Operational Record Book] of the 13th New Hampshire Regt, detailing all the little things that went on when they weren't fighting for the Union side. "Regt in Camp, felling trees to make a log road", that sort of thing. https://www.amazon.com/Three-Years-D...ears+and+a+day
The other is the diary of a Confederate, original a Georgia Militia private but with serious family connections, who when the War started rode up to Virginia to seek employment as an Aide to [then] Brig-Gen Longstreet. Honorary commission as Capt, later proper commission, and rose to Col on Longstreet's Staff in what was then called their Assistant Adjutant General's Department, before being promoted Brig-Gen himself and given a Brigade - and shortly after wounded in battle. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Recollectio...+Staff+Officer.
They don't tell 'History' but instead penned sketches which show, as no formal record does, what it's actually like 'out there'. My long reading of the War Between The States, as the South prefers to call it, has been illuminated hugely over the last few weeks [from both sides]. i knew about the BIG things, but absolutely nothing about the daily 'existence' of those involved.
So does this Thread of Threads. The little details expounded by several posters give those of us who were NOT there a much better feeling of what it was like.
Keep going!
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Quite so MPN11. John would often say 'we lived like animals' and hopefully the actual conditions in Burma will come out. There is no doubt that, as with so many, Burma scarred him for life.
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Box Brownie,
A fine start ! Welcome to you (#9320 and #9326), and to Flt Lt John Dunbar DFC (RIP).
How to win friends and influence people ! More likely to be a case of "A young man with a bright future behind him !" - he was lucky to survive.
His reaction was the same as that of our American Army Air Corps instructors after Pearl Harbor: "It'll be all over before we get there !". In the end there was plenty of war for everyone - and a bit too much for some. But I don't remember any of ours going and taking it out on their Colonel - they'd be clapped in irons ! (they took it out on us, instead).
At this stage of the war, almost all our flying training was farmed out to the Empire Air Training Schools in Canada, Southern Rhodesia and other places. Britain had too poor weather, the skies were too crowded, there was a blackout at night, and there was a war going on all around in the air in the meanwhile.
The American offer (of training in selected Schools of their own - the "Arnold Scheme") and in providing six "British Flying Training Schools" in the Southern States, was extraordinarily generous. And surprising, too - both Schemes were started in summer (1941), when the US was (officially) still neutral (and not supppose to provide military assistance to either side). Not that Hitler could do much about it !
Their enormous help (about 7,000 pilots for the RAF from their own resources) must have just about balanced the Bomber Command losses during the war.
Keep it coming, BB - slabs of 1,000 words are about right.
Danny42C (ie in Class 42C of the "Arnold Scheme", still treasures the dollar-silver US Army wings he got - but we were not allowed to wear them on uniform, only our RAF ones. A pity).
A fine start ! Welcome to you (#9320 and #9326), and to Flt Lt John Dunbar DFC (RIP).
...Not knowing that I had come top of the course I stormed into the Group Captain and said what a disgraceful decision it was, that I was the youngest on the course, that I was totally ill-equipped to be a flying instructor, and wanted to go on operations...
His reaction was the same as that of our American Army Air Corps instructors after Pearl Harbor: "It'll be all over before we get there !". In the end there was plenty of war for everyone - and a bit too much for some. But I don't remember any of ours going and taking it out on their Colonel - they'd be clapped in irons ! (they took it out on us, instead).
At this stage of the war, almost all our flying training was farmed out to the Empire Air Training Schools in Canada, Southern Rhodesia and other places. Britain had too poor weather, the skies were too crowded, there was a blackout at night, and there was a war going on all around in the air in the meanwhile.
The American offer (of training in selected Schools of their own - the "Arnold Scheme") and in providing six "British Flying Training Schools" in the Southern States, was extraordinarily generous. And surprising, too - both Schemes were started in summer (1941), when the US was (officially) still neutral (and not supppose to provide military assistance to either side). Not that Hitler could do much about it !
Their enormous help (about 7,000 pilots for the RAF from their own resources) must have just about balanced the Bomber Command losses during the war.
Keep it coming, BB - slabs of 1,000 words are about right.
Danny42C (ie in Class 42C of the "Arnold Scheme", still treasures the dollar-silver US Army wings he got - but we were not allowed to wear them on uniform, only our RAF ones. A pity).
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Were they really silver, Danny?
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"You can roll a silver dollar, down upon the gro-und"......
MPN11,
So we were told ! Mine (which, AFAIK, have never beem polished) has dulled over the 73 years to the exact shade of a genuine silver coin of that age, but not tarnished). They are in the form of a brooch, so as to be easily transferred from one uniform to another.
Google no help.
We have a regular contributor here (is it Tankertrashnav ?), who was, at one time a dealer in medals and militaria. If he (whoever he is) is in earshot, perhaps he could help us. Or how about a USAF Pilot ? There must be some tuned-in here. An old retired one (my age or thereabouts) would be best of all.
Seems they are still minted: used one on E-bay at £25 odd IIRC.
Danny.
So we were told ! Mine (which, AFAIK, have never beem polished) has dulled over the 73 years to the exact shade of a genuine silver coin of that age, but not tarnished). They are in the form of a brooch, so as to be easily transferred from one uniform to another.
Google no help.
We have a regular contributor here (is it Tankertrashnav ?), who was, at one time a dealer in medals and militaria. If he (whoever he is) is in earshot, perhaps he could help us. Or how about a USAF Pilot ? There must be some tuned-in here. An old retired one (my age or thereabouts) would be best of all.
Seems they are still minted: used one on E-bay at £25 odd IIRC.
Danny.
Box Brownie, a warm welcome from me as well. It is doubly so, for you are telling someone else's story armed only with what was imparted to you. So I only ask the following tentatively with the expectation that you will politely respond that you haven't a clue, and fair enough indeed!
Do you have any details of the path that led him to Theale and of his flying training there? Anything at all about his recruitment, attestation, basic training, and then later of his embarkation to Canada and the completion of Elementary and then to his Advanced Training at Estevan?
As MPN11 and Danny confirm, it is the nitty-gritty that brings the story to life, which is after all about "Gaining an RAF Pilots Brevet in WWII". It seems that you don't have anything recorded along those lines or you would no doubt have started his story at an earlier stage, but perhaps he mentioned in passing some details in conversation? Anything at all will be gratefully received and devoured. We have been spoiled by Danny's amazing feats of memory but can hardly expect such detail from you, so bits and pieces will suffice if possible.
He certainly sounds to be someone who knew his mind, and did so at a very early age. He also must have been incredibly lucky to walk away from a dead-stick night arrival that destroyed the aircraft but left him unscathed. How such an accident didn't rate a Board of Inquiry at which he would have been the primary witness (and suspect?) I have no idea, but perhaps Danny might wish to comment on that.
That he was retained as a Flying Instructor isn't perhaps so surprising given that he had managed to survive the loss of both engines on only his second night solo. So no surprise that he had passed out top of the course and of course no surprise that no-one had thought to tell him! As to the feuding SNCOs and the matter of the cup of tea being of more significance than the loss of one of HM's aircraft, again par for the course?
Thanks again BB, we await your future posts with anticipation. Any padding out will be all the better for it!
Do you have any details of the path that led him to Theale and of his flying training there? Anything at all about his recruitment, attestation, basic training, and then later of his embarkation to Canada and the completion of Elementary and then to his Advanced Training at Estevan?
As MPN11 and Danny confirm, it is the nitty-gritty that brings the story to life, which is after all about "Gaining an RAF Pilots Brevet in WWII". It seems that you don't have anything recorded along those lines or you would no doubt have started his story at an earlier stage, but perhaps he mentioned in passing some details in conversation? Anything at all will be gratefully received and devoured. We have been spoiled by Danny's amazing feats of memory but can hardly expect such detail from you, so bits and pieces will suffice if possible.
He certainly sounds to be someone who knew his mind, and did so at a very early age. He also must have been incredibly lucky to walk away from a dead-stick night arrival that destroyed the aircraft but left him unscathed. How such an accident didn't rate a Board of Inquiry at which he would have been the primary witness (and suspect?) I have no idea, but perhaps Danny might wish to comment on that.
That he was retained as a Flying Instructor isn't perhaps so surprising given that he had managed to survive the loss of both engines on only his second night solo. So no surprise that he had passed out top of the course and of course no surprise that no-one had thought to tell him! As to the feuding SNCOs and the matter of the cup of tea being of more significance than the loss of one of HM's aircraft, again par for the course?
Thanks again BB, we await your future posts with anticipation. Any padding out will be all the better for it!
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Thank you for the welcome Chug. I have been what I believe is called a 'lurker' here for many years and have put the odd comment of threads in the past. I regularly look look for your comments.
I mentioned the missing tape - that would have the early details of John's career - still looking for it - I am very aware of the gap at the start of his story
John had Above Average and Exceptional ratings in his log book
John would have been over the moon with the reception to his story - a remarkable man and good friend.
I mentioned the missing tape - that would have the early details of John's career - still looking for it - I am very aware of the gap at the start of his story
John had Above Average and Exceptional ratings in his log book
John would have been over the moon with the reception to his story - a remarkable man and good friend.
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Box Brownie (#9336),
Feasts in Store ! (I'm licking my lips in anticipation).
I had "Average" on all mine - except for two. One was from Alex Hindley, when 20 Sqn was disbanded at Valley in 1951. The best and kindliest of Bosses, he could not perjure himself by writing "Above Average", but put "High Average" (which means nothing) to make me feel good (I suppose). Really "Damning with faint praise" ?
And after my last Refresher at Weston Zoyland in 1954, they entered "As a Meteor Pilot" ..... "Proficient" (whatever that means). Did me no good: three days later, full of hope of getting my full flying category back, I went up to CMB. They ploughed me for keeps ! (ATC now for you, lad - be happy with that).
I would never write "DCO" again. Ah, well.
Danny.
Feasts in Store ! (I'm licking my lips in anticipation).
...John had Above Average and Exceptional ratings in his log book...
And after my last Refresher at Weston Zoyland in 1954, they entered "As a Meteor Pilot" ..... "Proficient" (whatever that means). Did me no good: three days later, full of hope of getting my full flying category back, I went up to CMB. They ploughed me for keeps ! (ATC now for you, lad - be happy with that).
I would never write "DCO" again. Ah, well.
Danny.
I was most pleasantly surprised earlier today when my lair was overflown by an aircraft in yellow U.S. livery, almost certainly the venerable Stearman (UK registration). It was a lovely sight, and sound .... perhaps this specimen is known to some within this crewroom?
... might have been G-OBEE from Old Buckenham (a place that may be remembered by those from the Arnold Scheme)
Last edited by FantomZorbin; 22nd Sep 2016 at 13:02. Reason: Addendum
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Box Brownie ... you have a PM 