Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II
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Also here, Danny42C >>> http://www.pprune.org/military-aviat...l-dfc-obe.html
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Should auld acqaintance be forgot.......?
Thanks, MPN11 - and it's good to see the old Vengeance getting a bit of publicity after having been totally forgotten for 70+ years.
Danny.
... It has done the state some service, and they know't...
There is tale to be told about two Vengeance pilots who were on a target towing detail at the RAAF base at Tocumwal in NSW. There are buried in the cemetery there having died in an accident. Or was it? There was at the time some shady business going on at Toc in 1944 with the war by now far away from the Australian mainland. There were many instances of sabotage going on around the aerodrome in the dead of the night. The CO of the base, if the hearsay stories can be believed , knew beyond all shadow of doubt, the two men who were responsible. He then took matters into his own hands . He detailed the two culprits for target towing, in the course of which they were 'accidentally' shot down.
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Dirty Work.
Fantome (your #8550),
Not all that far:
(Wiki).
and:
(Wiki).
I would assume most of the Allied casualties would be Australian.
Sorry, Fantome, but I cannot believe that. He would have had to order an Australian gun crew to deliberately shoot down an Australian aircraft with an Australian crew. This was clearly not a Lawful Command - and even if the gun crew had been willing accomplices (which they must have been for otherwise they would have refused to obey), think of the number who had witnessed the event, and the suspicions which must have been aroused. The Court of Enquiry's findings would make interesting reading (is it possible to turn them up from the Archives ?)
Danny.
...in 1944 with the war by now far away from the Australian mainland...
...The New Guinea campaign of the Pacific War lasted from January 1942 until the end of the war in August 1945...
and:
...Casualties and losses
42,000 total[4]Allied.......... 127,600 (New Guinea only)[5]Jap...
42,000 total[4]Allied.......... 127,600 (New Guinea only)[5]Jap...
I would assume most of the Allied casualties would be Australian.
...He then took matters into his own hands . He detailed the two culprits for target towing, in the course of which they were 'accidentally' shot down...
Danny.
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I had a look through the listing of RAAF accidents and crashes in Australia during the war years.
This listing is from Peter Dunn's Ozatwar site and, while respected, I personally feel is less than 100% complete.
Anyway, I was not able to turn up definite record of a Vengeance crash anywhere near Tocumwal in 1944.
There is one, however, of Vengeance A27-409 from 3 Communication Flight, RAAF which, it seems, had been operating from Mascot, Sydney as a target drogue test aircraft.
This crash, resulting in two fatalities at an unrecorded location, occurred on February 28th, 1944.
I wonder if that could be the one referred to.
This listing is from Peter Dunn's Ozatwar site and, while respected, I personally feel is less than 100% complete.
Anyway, I was not able to turn up definite record of a Vengeance crash anywhere near Tocumwal in 1944.
There is one, however, of Vengeance A27-409 from 3 Communication Flight, RAAF which, it seems, had been operating from Mascot, Sydney as a target drogue test aircraft.
This crash, resulting in two fatalities at an unrecorded location, occurred on February 28th, 1944.
I wonder if that could be the one referred to.
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CoodaShooda,
Yes, I hadn't thought of that. But he would have had to make sure he finished them both off (and even then, might they not have been able to get an anguished call out on the R/T ?) He took a huge risk !
Stanwell,
The plot thickens - could be we're on to something here. But two fatalities like this must have been investigated - there must be a paper trail. Do you have an Air Historical Branch in the RAAF ?
Curiously, I had my own near-death experience four days earlier, on 24.2.44.
Danny.
Yes, I hadn't thought of that. But he would have had to make sure he finished them both off (and even then, might they not have been able to get an anguished call out on the R/T ?) He took a huge risk !
Stanwell,
The plot thickens - could be we're on to something here. But two fatalities like this must have been investigated - there must be a paper trail. Do you have an Air Historical Branch in the RAAF ?
Curiously, I had my own near-death experience four days earlier, on 24.2.44.
Danny.
In Fred Hoinville's book 'Halfway to Heaven' he recounts a fatal accident to a VV at Mascot (Sydney's primary airport). Probably in 1944. Curiously it was also witnessed by two men I knew years later. One was Dick Creak who was an apprentice in a maintenance hangar nearby. The other was Lindsay Pryor who was involved with forestry in the war and later became dean of the School of Botany at the Australian National University in Canberra.
The Tocumwal incident, if it did happen, might have been revealed by the only witness to the extraordinary event, the perpetrator himself, on or close to his death bed. A similar thing may have happened long afterwards with a Qantas Catalina in August 1949. This aircraft was blown up in the night at her mooring in Rose Bay, Sydney.
The guilty party was never found, although suspicions abounded at the time, and for years after. A man claiming to have been responsible confessed to his crime shortly before his death in Hong Kong about ten years ago. It cannot be confirmed however. It ranks with all those Bill Tidy FOAF stories. (A friend of a friend.)
The Tocumwal incident, if it did happen, might have been revealed by the only witness to the extraordinary event, the perpetrator himself, on or close to his death bed. A similar thing may have happened long afterwards with a Qantas Catalina in August 1949. This aircraft was blown up in the night at her mooring in Rose Bay, Sydney.
The guilty party was never found, although suspicions abounded at the time, and for years after. A man claiming to have been responsible confessed to his crime shortly before his death in Hong Kong about ten years ago. It cannot be confirmed however. It ranks with all those Bill Tidy FOAF stories. (A friend of a friend.)
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Fantome,
Falls in the same category, I suppose. There are many questions left over from WWII which can never be answered now.
Wander00,
Gaudeamus igitur......!
Danny.
"An airman told me before he died,
And I don't know if the b*****d lied......."
And I don't know if the b*****d lied......."
Falls in the same category, I suppose. There are many questions left over from WWII which can never be answered now.
Wander00,
Gaudeamus igitur......!
Danny.
Last edited by Danny42C; 4th May 2016 at 20:46. Reason: ?
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I sadly dropped out of Latin in the 2nd Form at Grammar School. I used to be quite competent in Prep, but when I returned from Jamaica I discovered they were using the same textbook, but I was on page 5 and they were about to move on from the Vocab and Index to a new textbook. Tempus fugit 
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Keeffro, (your #8527),
and my #8534,
It's been a week - the natives will be getting restless. Could we please have just a little taster ?
Danny.
...I'll put up another post shortly on what he was happy to admit was his relatively brief operational experience in wartime...
...We'll hold you to that - no backsliding now !...
Danny.
From Pensacola to the Rhine
The noble call from Danny!
By the time Dennis was ready to be posted to an operational squadron, the need for Catalina pilots was declining. So he either volunteered or was volunteered to retrain as a glider pilot.
This led to him taking part in the Rhine Crossing in early 1945: that was an operation that I wasn't really aware of, overshadowed as it was in popular culture by the Remagen crossing and Market Garden, both of which have been the subject of well-known books and films.
He told me that he had landed at Hamminkeln. He transported an element of the Oxford and Bucks Light Infantry, and was really greatly impressed by their high standard of training as they deployed and went into action – he said that their officer commanded them entirely by whistle blasts and they all moved very smartly and efficiently.
After the successful landing, he said, “They gave me a rifle and told me to guard a bunch of prisoners in a cellar, which I did till I was relieved the next day, and that was the end of my war”.
Around the time he told me this, he was planning to take part in a reunion in Hamminkeln, and had even secured lottery funding to take part. I was living in Belgium at the time, and was hoping to travel there to meet him at the reunion. I spent some time researching the operation, which was called Operation Varsity, and collecting links to online articles about it for him and the rest of his family to read. There's an article on it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Varsity However, in the event, he decided at the last moment not to go, and I can imagine his reasons for this.
Though judged a great success, Operation Varsity did still incur considerable casualties, though not on the scale of Arnhem. I recall reading in one of the articles I found on line that casualties were particularly heavy among glider pilots.
He died a few years ago before I ever got a chance to ask him more about his time in uniform. However, I believe that his other son (who lives near Biggin Hill, as it happens) has his logbook and may be able to contribute a few more anecdotes if I can get him to join this discussion.
By the time Dennis was ready to be posted to an operational squadron, the need for Catalina pilots was declining. So he either volunteered or was volunteered to retrain as a glider pilot.
This led to him taking part in the Rhine Crossing in early 1945: that was an operation that I wasn't really aware of, overshadowed as it was in popular culture by the Remagen crossing and Market Garden, both of which have been the subject of well-known books and films.
He told me that he had landed at Hamminkeln. He transported an element of the Oxford and Bucks Light Infantry, and was really greatly impressed by their high standard of training as they deployed and went into action – he said that their officer commanded them entirely by whistle blasts and they all moved very smartly and efficiently.
After the successful landing, he said, “They gave me a rifle and told me to guard a bunch of prisoners in a cellar, which I did till I was relieved the next day, and that was the end of my war”.
Around the time he told me this, he was planning to take part in a reunion in Hamminkeln, and had even secured lottery funding to take part. I was living in Belgium at the time, and was hoping to travel there to meet him at the reunion. I spent some time researching the operation, which was called Operation Varsity, and collecting links to online articles about it for him and the rest of his family to read. There's an article on it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Varsity However, in the event, he decided at the last moment not to go, and I can imagine his reasons for this.
Though judged a great success, Operation Varsity did still incur considerable casualties, though not on the scale of Arnhem. I recall reading in one of the articles I found on line that casualties were particularly heavy among glider pilots.
He died a few years ago before I ever got a chance to ask him more about his time in uniform. However, I believe that his other son (who lives near Biggin Hill, as it happens) has his logbook and may be able to contribute a few more anecdotes if I can get him to join this discussion.
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Old comrades
We four, Reub and Len, Bob and I, took a trip (cadged rides in Yankee jeeps, mainly) up the local mountain, about 3,000 feet high, on the north-west corner of Sicily, and there found the most delightful old-world village, Erice, (pronounced "Eri-chay) perched right on the top of the mountain. It had ancient cottages and civic buildings clustered together around a cobbled village square. On one side was what appeared to be a medieval castle, actually built or moulded into the sheer cliff face at its base. We had 24 hours leave, and stayed in the local hotel, a place full of charm but with very little to eat. We had some wonderful omelettes, for dinner and for breakfast the next day, washed down of course with plenty of local wine. Some of the locals were hostile, others were quite friendly, including one young man with the air of a student, who spoke to us in halting English in the cobbled street and then took us to his home, where we gently sipped the very sweet wine he served, and ate tiny, sweet biscuits.
Our flying continued as before. We did lots of convoy escorts into the Italian coast, landing troops in the Salerno area, where a bridgehead was being established. We rarely saw enemy aircraft, but we knew there was a great deal of activity in the invasion area. We were flying for long hours - one of my escort trips, including the journey to and from the convoy, was for 6 hours 20 minutes, quite a feat in a Beaufighter.
While we were in Sicily, the Italian Government capitulated to the Allies, and there was a sudden switch in affections by both sides. Officially, the Italians became our allies, and the Germans, furious at the change of heart, took it out on the Italians. The Italian army was rounded up as prisoners-of-war, "friendly" towns and villages were besieged by Germans, and there was a general air of relief by our side, although the long, hard slog northwards up the Italian mainland was still ahead.
We celebrated the capitulation very happily. We drank 'vino' in the local farmhouse with the family, and I toasted them in halting Italian, which I had learned from a school grammar picked up somewhere. To my embarrassment, none of them understood what I was saying, looking blankly at me and muttering "Non capita, non capito", but there was great hilarity from my mates!
Eventually, our little tour of duty in Sicily came to an end. I think we would all have liked to continue, by moving across to Italy and continuing northwards with the advancing armies. However, our presence was obviously required elsewhere, and we were sent back to Egypt, to be re-equipped with more up-to-date Beaufighters crated out from England and re-assembled in Egypt.
Soon we were flying again, from Libyan airfields in the vicinity of Tobruk and Benghazi, in Beaufighter Mark Xs, and resumed activities on escort duty for shipping, and on "strikes" across the Mediterranean in Greek waters, both adjacent to the mainland and in the islands north of Crete, where there were still large numbers of the enemy.
The reason for our frequent moves around the desert was mainly due to the weather that played an important part in where we could take off and land our aircraft. We were some time at El Adem, near Tobruk, where all the water was salty and most unpleasant to drink and wash in. We were also at Berka III, a landing ground south of Benghazi, when sudden rains came and flooded us out of El Adem. From these two airfields, we made our long sorties across that great ocean.
Each flight took between two and two-and-a-half hours each way - to reach the coast of Greece or the islands in the Aegean Sea. From the aforementioned habit of the Beaufighter of "hunting", or rising up and down at will, it was a very tiring job to fly right across the Mediterranean, attack a target, and fly back to base. Nevertheless, I think most of us enjoyed the experience, although sometimes fearful in the action that occurred over and around the targets. Only feet above the sea, we would attack airfields, stray shipping like gunboats and corvettes, supply barges making their runs between the mainland and the islands, bomb dumps and other likely strategic objectives.
Our flying continued as before. We did lots of convoy escorts into the Italian coast, landing troops in the Salerno area, where a bridgehead was being established. We rarely saw enemy aircraft, but we knew there was a great deal of activity in the invasion area. We were flying for long hours - one of my escort trips, including the journey to and from the convoy, was for 6 hours 20 minutes, quite a feat in a Beaufighter.
While we were in Sicily, the Italian Government capitulated to the Allies, and there was a sudden switch in affections by both sides. Officially, the Italians became our allies, and the Germans, furious at the change of heart, took it out on the Italians. The Italian army was rounded up as prisoners-of-war, "friendly" towns and villages were besieged by Germans, and there was a general air of relief by our side, although the long, hard slog northwards up the Italian mainland was still ahead.
We celebrated the capitulation very happily. We drank 'vino' in the local farmhouse with the family, and I toasted them in halting Italian, which I had learned from a school grammar picked up somewhere. To my embarrassment, none of them understood what I was saying, looking blankly at me and muttering "Non capita, non capito", but there was great hilarity from my mates!
Eventually, our little tour of duty in Sicily came to an end. I think we would all have liked to continue, by moving across to Italy and continuing northwards with the advancing armies. However, our presence was obviously required elsewhere, and we were sent back to Egypt, to be re-equipped with more up-to-date Beaufighters crated out from England and re-assembled in Egypt.
Soon we were flying again, from Libyan airfields in the vicinity of Tobruk and Benghazi, in Beaufighter Mark Xs, and resumed activities on escort duty for shipping, and on "strikes" across the Mediterranean in Greek waters, both adjacent to the mainland and in the islands north of Crete, where there were still large numbers of the enemy.
The reason for our frequent moves around the desert was mainly due to the weather that played an important part in where we could take off and land our aircraft. We were some time at El Adem, near Tobruk, where all the water was salty and most unpleasant to drink and wash in. We were also at Berka III, a landing ground south of Benghazi, when sudden rains came and flooded us out of El Adem. From these two airfields, we made our long sorties across that great ocean.
Each flight took between two and two-and-a-half hours each way - to reach the coast of Greece or the islands in the Aegean Sea. From the aforementioned habit of the Beaufighter of "hunting", or rising up and down at will, it was a very tiring job to fly right across the Mediterranean, attack a target, and fly back to base. Nevertheless, I think most of us enjoyed the experience, although sometimes fearful in the action that occurred over and around the targets. Only feet above the sea, we would attack airfields, stray shipping like gunboats and corvettes, supply barges making their runs between the mainland and the islands, bomb dumps and other likely strategic objectives.
Last edited by Walter603; 7th May 2016 at 06:37. Reason: Title
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Walter,
and
.
Sounds a lethal combination to me ! (A poet, no less ! Is there no end to the man's accomplishments ?)
Did you ever get to see the Capuchin catacombs of Palermo ? (bit grisly, but quite a tourist attraction, I believe). Sadly, I never saw anything of the Mediterranian lands in WWII, except for a night transit of the Canal, and our ship home pulled in at Gib to offload a smallpox patient.
Worth a read: Eric Newby's "Love and War in the Apenines", a lovely story of the times the Italians changed sides. The Brazilian rivulet has copies (no, I'm not on commission).
Danny.
... From the aforementioned habit of the Beaufighter of "hunting", or rising up and down at will...
.
..Only feet above the sea...
Did you ever get to see the Capuchin catacombs of Palermo ? (bit grisly, but quite a tourist attraction, I believe). Sadly, I never saw anything of the Mediterranian lands in WWII, except for a night transit of the Canal, and our ship home pulled in at Gib to offload a smallpox patient.
Worth a read: Eric Newby's "Love and War in the Apenines", a lovely story of the times the Italians changed sides. The Brazilian rivulet has copies (no, I'm not on commission).
Danny.
Last edited by Danny42C; 20th May 2016 at 20:55. Reason: Proper Sizing !
Re Eric Newby - responsible for my all time favourite book title - 'A Short Walk in the Hindu Kush'. His 'The Last Grain Race' is also well-worth reading.
And now back to your normal programme...
And now back to your normal programme...
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Danny - yes, it was a lethal combination. We were instructed to fly all our "rover" patrols at 20 feet above sea level to keep below enemy RDF. For safety I was usually up to 50 feet and even that felt dangerous at times. We did lose planes and crews; can't say how many but I do remember a seasoned pair, Johnny Hay and Eric Warral, who disappeared in an instant when their plane touched the sea.
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Danny, I didn't get to Palermo. We were in sicily only about 4 weeks before being shunted back to Libya and apart from Erice on the mountain I only visited a couple of small towns like Mazala. Otherwise we were quite busy!
