Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II
Caveat Emptor
Many thanks F-101 for the link to the trailer. Perhaps The Sunday Times previewer saw this and presumed that the whole prog. was about the rebuilding of London? So - just one aspect of the show - Heh Ho!
Ian BB
Ian BB
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Lest we Forget.
Fionn101 (your #7541),
"Moved by a wall engraved with the names of thousands of missing soldiers" (Walter Cronkike)...makes me think of another wall tablet which touched me. Some years ago, I went into a little old church in Falaise (Normandy).
It was completely deserted, but on one wall there was a small commemorative plaque recording the names of 300 townfolk: men, women and children, civilians who had died in the crossfire of the '44 Liberation.
This pales in comparison with the thousands of non-combatants also killed in France at that time. I believe the logical French bear us no grudge. C'était la guerre - it was inevitable.
Danny.
"Moved by a wall engraved with the names of thousands of missing soldiers" (Walter Cronkike)...makes me think of another wall tablet which touched me. Some years ago, I went into a little old church in Falaise (Normandy).
It was completely deserted, but on one wall there was a small commemorative plaque recording the names of 300 townfolk: men, women and children, civilians who had died in the crossfire of the '44 Liberation.
This pales in comparison with the thousands of non-combatants also killed in France at that time. I believe the logical French bear us no grudge. C'était la guerre - it was inevitable.
Danny.
Last edited by Danny42C; 22nd Oct 2015 at 18:21. Reason: Spacing. ????.
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Having clarified the Sky programme issue [no apologies needed, you can't trust any Media info these days] I now have to choose/persuade between that and the delectable Lucy Worsley on BBC4 [Sky 116].
As the OH will prefer the latter, and in any case knows I fanthy Luthy thumthing wicked, I suspect I will be watching BBC4.
Ho-hum, some you win
As the OH will prefer the latter, and in any case knows I fanthy Luthy thumthing wicked, I suspect I will be watching BBC4.
Ho-hum, some you win
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Just going back to Ian B-B's post 7521 on p377 for a moment; my father went through grading school at Shellingford in March-April 1944. He also had just one instructor, Sgt Porter, and went solo on 6 April in Tiger Moth T5842. Incidentally, when I did my PPL in 2003 I also had just one instructor. Thanks Alan.
Dad then followed a similar path to 5BFTS at Riddle Field near Clewiston in Florida, where he joined 25 Course in April 1945. Well through his training by August 1945, the dropping of the atomic bombs and subsequent surrender by the Japanese curtailed the course, and his last flight in AT6-D "AS", a one hour solo trip, took place on 6 September.
Some sources state that the training schemes in the US stopped immediately after VJ Day (15 August 1945), but my Dad's log book shows otherwise.
I hope this is of interest; I have followed this thread for some time and find it truly enthralling.
Dad then followed a similar path to 5BFTS at Riddle Field near Clewiston in Florida, where he joined 25 Course in April 1945. Well through his training by August 1945, the dropping of the atomic bombs and subsequent surrender by the Japanese curtailed the course, and his last flight in AT6-D "AS", a one hour solo trip, took place on 6 September.
Some sources state that the training schemes in the US stopped immediately after VJ Day (15 August 1945), but my Dad's log book shows otherwise.
I hope this is of interest; I have followed this thread for some time and find it truly enthralling.
The End
Octavian,
Peter Brannan was another on Course 25 at Clewiston, he fell ill and was put onto Course 26, they of course, never qualified, but, certainly training continued after VJ day. The 201 cadets of courses 25 and 26 were all denied their wings by the cessation of hostilities. As I have reported here before, I have a quote from one of the R.A.F. Officers in charge at the time, "My, my," he said, "now you are redundant. What in the world will we do with you?"
I am sure all here can imagine their devastation.
Ian BB
Peter Brannan was another on Course 25 at Clewiston, he fell ill and was put onto Course 26, they of course, never qualified, but, certainly training continued after VJ day. The 201 cadets of courses 25 and 26 were all denied their wings by the cessation of hostilities. As I have reported here before, I have a quote from one of the R.A.F. Officers in charge at the time, "My, my," he said, "now you are redundant. What in the world will we do with you?"
I am sure all here can imagine their devastation.
Ian BB
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What might have been.
Ian BB,
There was bound to be a huge overrun when the Japanese war ended so suddenly: we were all "caught on the hop", and it was months before some sort of equilibrium could be restored. Meanwhile most units carried on more or less by a process of inertia, and of course the flying training schools were no exception.
I can well imagine the disappointment of the trainees part way through their courses in the BFTS and in Canada (the Arnold Scheme in the US had ended in '43), but if the Bomb had not dropped when it did, they would have come out to join us in the Far East (for there would have been no sense in our being repatriated, even though we'd ended our "tours") and taken part in the land, sea and air battles which would precede the final combined services invasion of Japan.
As to that project, at the time it was generally accepted out there that the Allied casualty list would be about a million dead (the majority American). See:
That's Life: It's Sexually Transmitted and Terminal
<https://books.google.co.uk/books?isbn=143575436>
Barry Friedman - 2008
"...Okinawa, an archipelago whose northernmost islands are about 350 miles south of the Japanese mainland .." (Barry Friedman, quoted by Google)
That shows the scope of the enterprise. The 201 Cadets of Courses 25 and 26 were better out of it ! and should count themselves lucky (as did I).
Danny.
There was bound to be a huge overrun when the Japanese war ended so suddenly: we were all "caught on the hop", and it was months before some sort of equilibrium could be restored. Meanwhile most units carried on more or less by a process of inertia, and of course the flying training schools were no exception.
I can well imagine the disappointment of the trainees part way through their courses in the BFTS and in Canada (the Arnold Scheme in the US had ended in '43), but if the Bomb had not dropped when it did, they would have come out to join us in the Far East (for there would have been no sense in our being repatriated, even though we'd ended our "tours") and taken part in the land, sea and air battles which would precede the final combined services invasion of Japan.
As to that project, at the time it was generally accepted out there that the Allied casualty list would be about a million dead (the majority American). See:
That's Life: It's Sexually Transmitted and Terminal
<https://books.google.co.uk/books?isbn=143575436>
Barry Friedman - 2008
"...Okinawa, an archipelago whose northernmost islands are about 350 miles south of the Japanese mainland .." (Barry Friedman, quoted by Google)
That shows the scope of the enterprise. The 201 Cadets of Courses 25 and 26 were better out of it ! and should count themselves lucky (as did I).
Danny.
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I have a little thing still niggling me that I have mentioned in Posts some time ago, when we were engrossed in the subject of Vultee Vengeance pilot's instrument panels. This was the unanswered question of Two Balls (needle 'n ball kind) on one Panel. (Groans of boredom all round !)
This (supposed A-35 [VV Mk.IV to us] arrangement was certainly also in the Curtis P-40), and others of that family, so it must have been a factory fit. BUT WHY WOULD YOU WANT TWO AT ALL ?
My curiosity was reawakened when I came across a Thread called "What Cockpit" (Multi-page Thread 1 2 3 4 5 6 ...18 Last Page). This lives in "Aviation History and Nostalgia" and the latest Post is currently on Page 2 of that. Obviously there would be a rich field of panels to explore here and I set about it to find more double ball examples.
But in all I have seen, there is only one case (p.3. #52) "confirmed", (and even then it might be argued that both are on the centre panel and so might reasonably be regarded as being shared out between the two pilots). This was the Lockheed L-14 Super Electra, which brought Premier Chamberlain back from Munich in '38, with his infamous piece of paper from Hitler promising "Peace in Our Time" (we were at war the next year !)
So I throw it open to all pilots (and anyone else with an opinion): can anybody give me a credible reason why a second 'slip' ball (which must have had a cost) on the panel would be an advantage to one pilot ?
Danny42C.
This (supposed A-35 [VV Mk.IV to us] arrangement was certainly also in the Curtis P-40), and others of that family, so it must have been a factory fit. BUT WHY WOULD YOU WANT TWO AT ALL ?
My curiosity was reawakened when I came across a Thread called "What Cockpit" (Multi-page Thread 1 2 3 4 5 6 ...18 Last Page). This lives in "Aviation History and Nostalgia" and the latest Post is currently on Page 2 of that. Obviously there would be a rich field of panels to explore here and I set about it to find more double ball examples.
But in all I have seen, there is only one case (p.3. #52) "confirmed", (and even then it might be argued that both are on the centre panel and so might reasonably be regarded as being shared out between the two pilots). This was the Lockheed L-14 Super Electra, which brought Premier Chamberlain back from Munich in '38, with his infamous piece of paper from Hitler promising "Peace in Our Time" (we were at war the next year !)
So I throw it open to all pilots (and anyone else with an opinion): can anybody give me a credible reason why a second 'slip' ball (which must have had a cost) on the panel would be an advantage to one pilot ?
Danny42C.
Danny, other than as half the turn and slip indicator itself, was the other "ball" simply an added part to another instrument? It occurs that for whatever reason the US Govt might have required required that a "ball" be attached to a particular instrument (artificial horizon, directional giro?) to aid the scan and ensure an in trim aircraft. It was the most basic of devices and would add mere cents to the cost, especially in the prodigious numbers being dealt with. Just a thought...
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My Cup Runneth Over !
Chugalug,
Tried to copy 'n paste the picture to you but no joy. But if you Search for Which Cockpit ? (Show Threads), then take it from there (as in Paras 2 and 3 of my Post), you should arrive at the picture. Will try again tonight, don't think I can get a pic, but can get an URL reference, if that's any good ?
The ordinary needle/ball is higher on the central panel than the combined D.I./ball (lower and set slightly to the left - obviously for the benefit of the Captain).
For my part, if I ever felt the need to reset the D.I. in the air, I would clearly have to fly S&L for a while to let the compass settle down, while doing that I'd have all the time in the world to centre the ball, so it could be anywhere in the panel provided I could see it. Why would I need two then ?
I must be missing something !
Danny.
OMG !!!
(Gremlin has taken over from me - Help !)
Danny.
The lower instrument, adjacent, top/left of the No 1 throttle appears to be a compass rose or direction indicator. (the type you fly around instead of chasing a needle).
Would it be possible that the 'ball' is an ADF indicator of some type.
Would it be possible that the 'ball' is an ADF indicator of some type.
I came across this site http://robertalfredjay.********.co.uk/ (for some reason Pprune doesn't like "blog spot" without the space so you'll have to replace the *s) whilst looking for something completely different (actually yachts built to train Luftwaffe navigators in the 30's).
He chronicles his father's experiences training and flying as a Flight Engineer. His logbook, record of service, even his 1250 are included. He has also researched other crew members from 75(NZ) Sqn at Mepal, and the squadron operations while his father was with them. With the end of hostilities in Europe, the crews took part in Baedeker trips - low flights over some of the squadron's targets to view the extent of the damage.
A link from there led to a 75(NZ) Squadron blog which includes a wealth of material.
https://75nzsquadron.wordpress.com/
Apologies if this has been posted previously.
He chronicles his father's experiences training and flying as a Flight Engineer. His logbook, record of service, even his 1250 are included. He has also researched other crew members from 75(NZ) Sqn at Mepal, and the squadron operations while his father was with them. With the end of hostilities in Europe, the crews took part in Baedeker trips - low flights over some of the squadron's targets to view the extent of the damage.
A link from there led to a 75(NZ) Squadron blog which includes a wealth of material.
https://75nzsquadron.wordpress.com/
Apologies if this has been posted previously.
Danny, time for me to sign the pledge I think. I'm now seeing everything in threes ;-) Your pic(s) confirm that Mr Chamberlain's piece of paper arrived safely thanks to not one but two slip indicators. You just can't have too much of a good thing!
Perhaps we ex-RAF types should remind ourselves that the RAF Standard Instrument Flying Panel was just that, an RAF one. Other countries seemed to have a more varied idea of what should adorn their instrument panels. I see on the following page to the one you directed me to is a German example of the art, in the Ju 388. They seem to have the offending item attached to the Artificial Horizon (but where is the Turn Indicator?). Vorsprung Durch Technik!
Perhaps we ex-RAF types should remind ourselves that the RAF Standard Instrument Flying Panel was just that, an RAF one. Other countries seemed to have a more varied idea of what should adorn their instrument panels. I see on the following page to the one you directed me to is a German example of the art, in the Ju 388. They seem to have the offending item attached to the Artificial Horizon (but where is the Turn Indicator?). Vorsprung Durch Technik!
Allow me:
I suspect that the lower unit is part of a standard 'blind-flying panel' and the upper is a straightforward back-up.
I suspect that the lower unit is part of a standard 'blind-flying panel' and the upper is a straightforward back-up.
Those objects scattered around the frames of the 388 remind me of the early Dragonfly helicopters. In Borneo we had an aged Flt Lt called Charley Verry who had flown these in Malaya during the Emergency.
The first S51s did not have hydraulic assistance with the controls. This made them very heavy to fly with no means to trim them out. As he said. "You could always tell a Dragonfly pilot by the way he dragged his knuckles along the floor." In flight it was much the same so as to make it bearable there were loops of bungee attached to various points around the glazed front end. Once in the cruise one selected a convenient loop and wrapped it around the cyclic to offset the forces.
If you don't believe me--------------http://www.sikorskyarchives.com/S-51.php
They have no idea how easy thing are nowadays.
The first S51s did not have hydraulic assistance with the controls. This made them very heavy to fly with no means to trim them out. As he said. "You could always tell a Dragonfly pilot by the way he dragged his knuckles along the floor." In flight it was much the same so as to make it bearable there were loops of bungee attached to various points around the glazed front end. Once in the cruise one selected a convenient loop and wrapped it around the cyclic to offset the forces.
If you don't believe me--------------http://www.sikorskyarchives.com/S-51.php
A 3 bladed fully articulated main rotor head was installed on the S-51 helicopter. The rotor diameter was 48 feet on helicopters and 49 feet on helicopters with all metal blades and controlled by a mechanical control system and a bungee trim system to reduce pilot fatigue. A rotor flapping restrainer was optional equipment which allowed rotor engagement in higher wind conditions.
A hydraulic servo system eliminated the bungee trim system in late production helicopters (H-5H) and was offered as a retrofit kit for earlier models. Hydraulic power for the servo was provided by a hydraulic pump belt driven by the tail rotor driveshaft.
A hydraulic servo system eliminated the bungee trim system in late production helicopters (H-5H) and was offered as a retrofit kit for earlier models. Hydraulic power for the servo was provided by a hydraulic pump belt driven by the tail rotor driveshaft.
Last edited by Fareastdriver; 24th Oct 2015 at 20:24.
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Chugalug (your #7549 and #7554), Fareastdriver (your #7551), bingofuel (your #7552), topgas (your #7553), and BEagle (your #7555),
Thank you all for your helpful suggestions and comments on this prize example of double-ball-itis. What has emerged is, I think, the right answer: the additional ball (below a Directional Instrument) formed part of a Sperry autopilot control sub-panel. Here I am at a disadvantage, having never seen (still less used) one and am indebted to Wiki for this pic of a modern one.
But in earlier times (can't find a pic) the auto control panel seems to have been found a place in the pilots' main panel (as in this 1938 Lockheed Super Electra), and I would suppose the wartime DC-3s and Dakotas would have a similar fit (we have wartime Dak operators on frequency - come in, please).
Clearly you would need to be able to fly the aircraft with or without the autopilot fitted, so you would also have the normal instrumentation. Indeed the Electra has another AH on the Captain's panel and surely another DI (blanked off by him), as well as the needle&ball up in the middle (odd place to put it ?)
So problem solved ? Well, no, not quite, In training in the US, I flew PT-17, BT-13 and AT-6A. Back home I flew Master, Hurricane, Spitfire, Vultee Vengeance, Thunderbolt, Harvard again, Spitfires again, Meteor, Vampire and a Balliol. None had more than one ball or slip needle.
So tell me why the P.40 had two (no autopilot). Were any other US s/e types so fitted ?.
There were some interesting sidelines:
The Captain had to make do with two stripes, the F/O only one (Imperial Airways ?)
Chugalug: I'm sorry I gave you triple vision, but, honest Guv, it wasn't me ! I managed to copy the picture all right, tried to paste it on PPRuNe-pad three ways, no joy on two of them and the third just gave me an 'url' (whatever that is) reference. Gave up, just put text in, "Preview Post" showed just text, tapped "Submit" - and all three chickens came home to roost ! Sighed and went to bed.
Yes, some instrument layouts were compared with "Pawnbroker's Shop Windows". Ju388 is new on me, had to look it up on Wiki. Good performance. Vertical scan might be easier than horizontal ? Turn indicator might be that little clock at the bottom, but how would it work ?
Fareastdriver, "...Would it be possible that the 'ball' is an ADF indicator of some type..." Don't think so. Will hand that over to those far more knowledgeable than I.
bingofuel: "Is the large rectangular group of instruments not the basic autopilot fitted to the ,...." Spot on !
topgas: "...even his 1250 are included..." How on Earth did he manage to get away with that ? 'Fraid I dont know Mepal or 75 (NZ) Sqdn, but met many Kiwis in my time. Always thought that, of all the Wild Colonial Boys, they resembled us the most closely.
BEagle: Thank you for a much better picture ! - but: "...and the other is a straightforward back-up..." I would have thought that, of all things, a 'ball' slip indicator was the least likely to fail. "Gravity never lets up", said one of my instructors in the US.
Once again salutations and my thanks to you all,
Danny.
Thank you all for your helpful suggestions and comments on this prize example of double-ball-itis. What has emerged is, I think, the right answer: the additional ball (below a Directional Instrument) formed part of a Sperry autopilot control sub-panel. Here I am at a disadvantage, having never seen (still less used) one and am indebted to Wiki for this pic of a modern one.
The modern flight control unit of an Airbus A340
But in earlier times (can't find a pic) the auto control panel seems to have been found a place in the pilots' main panel (as in this 1938 Lockheed Super Electra), and I would suppose the wartime DC-3s and Dakotas would have a similar fit (we have wartime Dak operators on frequency - come in, please).
Clearly you would need to be able to fly the aircraft with or without the autopilot fitted, so you would also have the normal instrumentation. Indeed the Electra has another AH on the Captain's panel and surely another DI (blanked off by him), as well as the needle&ball up in the middle (odd place to put it ?)
So problem solved ? Well, no, not quite, In training in the US, I flew PT-17, BT-13 and AT-6A. Back home I flew Master, Hurricane, Spitfire, Vultee Vengeance, Thunderbolt, Harvard again, Spitfires again, Meteor, Vampire and a Balliol. None had more than one ball or slip needle.
So tell me why the P.40 had two (no autopilot). Were any other US s/e types so fitted ?.
There were some interesting sidelines:
The Captain had to make do with two stripes, the F/O only one (Imperial Airways ?)
Chugalug: I'm sorry I gave you triple vision, but, honest Guv, it wasn't me ! I managed to copy the picture all right, tried to paste it on PPRuNe-pad three ways, no joy on two of them and the third just gave me an 'url' (whatever that is) reference. Gave up, just put text in, "Preview Post" showed just text, tapped "Submit" - and all three chickens came home to roost ! Sighed and went to bed.
Yes, some instrument layouts were compared with "Pawnbroker's Shop Windows". Ju388 is new on me, had to look it up on Wiki. Good performance. Vertical scan might be easier than horizontal ? Turn indicator might be that little clock at the bottom, but how would it work ?
Fareastdriver, "...Would it be possible that the 'ball' is an ADF indicator of some type..." Don't think so. Will hand that over to those far more knowledgeable than I.
bingofuel: "Is the large rectangular group of instruments not the basic autopilot fitted to the ,...." Spot on !
topgas: "...even his 1250 are included..." How on Earth did he manage to get away with that ? 'Fraid I dont know Mepal or 75 (NZ) Sqdn, but met many Kiwis in my time. Always thought that, of all the Wild Colonial Boys, they resembled us the most closely.
BEagle: Thank you for a much better picture ! - but: "...and the other is a straightforward back-up..." I would have thought that, of all things, a 'ball' slip indicator was the least likely to fail. "Gravity never lets up", said one of my instructors in the US.
Once again salutations and my thanks to you all,
Danny.
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First solo
Mention of solo caused me to look for my fathers logbook, instead I found that
of my uncle Alastair who went solo on 16/12/1948 after 6 hours 45 mins training.
14 flights in a Tiger moth. 12 Flights with a Mr R Whitehead and 2 with a Mr Forster.
I think the experience of my father was similar.
of my uncle Alastair who went solo on 16/12/1948 after 6 hours 45 mins training.
14 flights in a Tiger moth. 12 Flights with a Mr R Whitehead and 2 with a Mr Forster.
I think the experience of my father was similar.
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esa-aardvark,
It's a Vengeance all right (or, more likely, the US A-31 or A-35, as the vehicle is RHD [which in my generation meant "drive on the RH side of the road"], and it looks like a US Army truck).
Don't think it's being towed by the truck, though. The accepted way was to tow backwards with a dolly on the tailwheel. Never seen one towed from the front, although you could easily do it with tow ropes on the wheel struts.
It would be an awkward business, the man in the cockpit,having to steer with wheel brakes (and unable to see forward over the nose, or zig-zag along as we had to do with all s/e taildraggers). Perhaps the chap on the prop boss was shouting instructions to him.
Any provenance to the pic ?
Danny.
It's a Vengeance all right (or, more likely, the US A-31 or A-35, as the vehicle is RHD [which in my generation meant "drive on the RH side of the road"], and it looks like a US Army truck).
Don't think it's being towed by the truck, though. The accepted way was to tow backwards with a dolly on the tailwheel. Never seen one towed from the front, although you could easily do it with tow ropes on the wheel struts.
It would be an awkward business, the man in the cockpit,having to steer with wheel brakes (and unable to see forward over the nose, or zig-zag along as we had to do with all s/e taildraggers). Perhaps the chap on the prop boss was shouting instructions to him.
Any provenance to the pic ?
Danny.
Danny, your request for an early DC-3 cockpit photo produces a wealth of ones to pick from on Google. I chose this one as it has the feel of an early one, with little apparent wear on the control wheels, however the rudder pedals have been well booted so obviously in service for a number of years. It does indeed seem to have the same centre (Sperry?) panel instruments as the Electra:-
