Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II
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Chugalug,
Well might you say: "God forbid that HMRC should get such ideas..." A recent difference of opinion with that august body (from which I emerged, I'm happy to say, victorious); and of which the 'C' element was my last employer (and now pays me a meagre second pension), ended with my having to carefully record no fewer than seven new numbers, Codes and references which had to be carefully squirrelled away (for they will surely try again some day before long)....D.
Fareastdriver,
This was what we had in RAF(G) in '60.
Grunau Baby
"When the Baby first appeared, it was accepted wisdom that the pilot should feel as much unimpeded airflow as possible, the better to sense rising and falling currents of air, temperature changes (they can say that again !) and the like" (Wiki)....D.
MPN11,
Seeing that the war was pretty well over by the time you first arrived on the scene, I'm surprised that you were dragged into the net at such an early age !
And even more surprised that you had (technically) to be prepared to produce it to any Constable until late as as February '52 (Wiki), when you'd be 7 more or less. What Enemies of the State were we afraid of then ?....D.
Cheers, all. Danny.
Well might you say: "God forbid that HMRC should get such ideas..." A recent difference of opinion with that august body (from which I emerged, I'm happy to say, victorious); and of which the 'C' element was my last employer (and now pays me a meagre second pension), ended with my having to carefully record no fewer than seven new numbers, Codes and references which had to be carefully squirrelled away (for they will surely try again some day before long)....D.
Fareastdriver,
This was what we had in RAF(G) in '60.
Grunau Baby
"When the Baby first appeared, it was accepted wisdom that the pilot should feel as much unimpeded airflow as possible, the better to sense rising and falling currents of air, temperature changes (they can say that again !) and the like" (Wiki)....D.
MPN11,
Seeing that the war was pretty well over by the time you first arrived on the scene, I'm surprised that you were dragged into the net at such an early age !
And even more surprised that you had (technically) to be prepared to produce it to any Constable until late as as February '52 (Wiki), when you'd be 7 more or less. What Enemies of the State were we afraid of then ?....D.
Cheers, all. Danny.
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WWII Bomber pilot training plus
I am currently working through a DVD of a log book which contains much of the RAF career of a distant 'something-or-other'-Uncle who joined in 1941. He trained in England and America before resuming training and Ops on Lancasters in England. I've just got to the pages where he starts by bombing Oberhausen, Krefeld, Wuppertal and Cologne in June 1943. Watch this space, my eyes are hurting.
Moonrakers' Grunau
Moonrakers' Grunau Baby (Upavon 1959-1960) was something special. It had been repaired by the Army (Major Evans and his team at Boscombe Down) and given a "Major" servicing. Unfortunately the Army put the tailplane on upside down so there was twice as much up-elevator as there was down-elevator. This proved exciting on the winch-launch as hitherto unheard-of heights could be achieved with minimal back-pressure. Looping the loop could be demonstrated at very low speeds. I believe 60 knots was the record. The Army should service more RAF aircraft. Flying is much more exciting when they do.
Danny42C and pompax especially-
After a lengthy sojourn in southern Spain for our Spring vacation, we're now back home and catching up on this wonderful thread I note Posts 5735 referring to Dannys friend, Ronnie Sweetlove.
I obviously rushed my response at that time, but have since revisited my information.
Firstly, the Additional Information is provided by the family of the deceased in a Final Verification Form sent out by the CWGC prior to entering the details on the cemetery register and once digitised onto the CWGC Debt of Honour database.
Therefore that's how the family wanted the Additional Details presented.
On CWGC records that do not contain Additional Information, that is because no FVF was returned, either by choice or due to being unable to locate a correct address for the surviving family (not uncommon when blown out of home by Blitz or doodlebugs).
What caused me to review the information was the Grave information for S/Ldr McKinnon...
Collective Grave 9-19.....
We all understand that at times it would be impossible to correctly identify the crew remains in a totally destroyed bomber, especially with a full bomb load, but a Collective Grave with 11 bodies???? A typical crew would be 7 (or 8 if carrying a specialist to jam night fighter frequencies). Occasionally there may be a second dickie with a new pilot flying with an experienced crew, or official photographer etc, but ELEVEN?
Further examination shows that these graves contain members from THREE different Squadrons, 6 from 44 Squadron; Sweetlove, Grimshaw, McKinnon and Jenkinson from 100 Squadron and a Sgt Thomas Arthur Bird from 101 Squadron. All were RAF/RAFVR except for McKinnon with a much darker blue uniform.
Often, that aids identification (or at least separation) from RAF crew as usually "something" of the uniform survives even catastrophic fire.
I can accept that a midair collision may have occurred resulting in the wreckage of two aircraft being found together and thus identifying who was on what aircraft hard to resolve, but THREE different Squadrons?
In addition, it appears that some of the 100 Sqaudron crew were able to bale out or were in a separate part and identified individually.
In December 1942 100 Squadron reformed at RAF Waltham (Grimsby). The squadron was allocated 16 Lancaster Mk IIIs The first operational sortie took place on March 4th 1943, with a mine laying (gardening) operation to St. Nazaire, losing its first two aircraft on this raid. ED559 crashed in the target area, and ED549 crashed at Langar Airfield in Nottinghamshire whilst trying to land.
100 Squadron dropped a total of 18,108 tons of bombs in 3,984 individual sorties. The squadron lost 113 Lancasters during the War, costing the lives of 593 young men.
CHAPPELL, STANLEY FREDERICK WALTER. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Flt. Engr. Service No: 625153. Date of Death: 08/04/1943.
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force. 100 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: 2. E. 7. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
GRIMSHAW, CYRIL JAMES. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Air Gnr. Service No: 649407. Date of Death: 08/04/1943.
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force. 100 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: Coll. grave 2. E. 9-19. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY.
JENKINSON, HARRY. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: W.Op./Air Gnr. Service No: 1025847. Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Age: 22.
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 100 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: Coll. grave 2. E. 9-19. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Alan Patrick and Edith Jenkinson, of Coventry.
KNOWLES, MAURICE HENRY. Rank: Sergeant. Service No: 1575223. Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Age: 20.
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 100 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: 2. E. 8. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Charles Shirley Knowles and Mary Elizabeth Knowles, of Leicester.
McKINNON, JOHN ARNOTT. Rank: Squadron Leader. Trade: Pilot. Service No: J/4965. Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Age: 27.
Regiment/Service: Royal Canadian Air Force. 100 (R.A.F.) Sqdn
Grave Reference: Coll. grave 2. E. 9-19. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY.
Additional Information: Son of John Donald and Ruth Rebecca McKinnon, of Red Deer, Alberta, Canada.
MONTIGUE, RICHARD JAMES BRUCE. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Nav. Service No: 1331520. Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Age: 20.
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 100 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: 2. E. 6. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Laurence Herbert and Julia Mary Montigue, of Leigh-on-Sea, Essex.
SWEETLOVE, RONALD SPENCER. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Obs. Service No: 1029829. Date of Death: 08/04/1943.
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 100 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: Coll. grave 2. E. 9-19. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY.
I'll see if I can identify Ronnies Lancaster and anything else, but please feel free to comment if a plausible explanation occurs to anyone...
EDIT: After a bit of rooting around, I believe they were the crew of Lanc III ED568 coded "T" fitted with Mandrel and Gee. Take off at 21:30 from Grimsby headed for Duisburg. Bomb load all incendiaries; 30 x 4 lb X type incendiaries, 48 x 30 lb incendiaries and 510 x 4 lb incendiaries.
McKinnon was pilot; Montigue - Nav; Sweetlove - B/Aimer; Jenkinson W/Op; Chappell - F/Eng; Knowles M/U/G and Grimshaw R/G.
Loss card shows shot down and 4 identified. "Rae M" and others buried on 14 April in Munchen Gladbach.
Presumably other returning aircraft made the "shot down" report, unless the notation is post War from German night fighter records.......
That precludes a mid air if the aircraft was known to have been shot down.
After a lengthy sojourn in southern Spain for our Spring vacation, we're now back home and catching up on this wonderful thread I note Posts 5735 referring to Dannys friend, Ronnie Sweetlove.
I obviously rushed my response at that time, but have since revisited my information.
Firstly, the Additional Information is provided by the family of the deceased in a Final Verification Form sent out by the CWGC prior to entering the details on the cemetery register and once digitised onto the CWGC Debt of Honour database.
Therefore that's how the family wanted the Additional Details presented.
On CWGC records that do not contain Additional Information, that is because no FVF was returned, either by choice or due to being unable to locate a correct address for the surviving family (not uncommon when blown out of home by Blitz or doodlebugs).
What caused me to review the information was the Grave information for S/Ldr McKinnon...
Collective Grave 9-19.....
We all understand that at times it would be impossible to correctly identify the crew remains in a totally destroyed bomber, especially with a full bomb load, but a Collective Grave with 11 bodies???? A typical crew would be 7 (or 8 if carrying a specialist to jam night fighter frequencies). Occasionally there may be a second dickie with a new pilot flying with an experienced crew, or official photographer etc, but ELEVEN?
Further examination shows that these graves contain members from THREE different Squadrons, 6 from 44 Squadron; Sweetlove, Grimshaw, McKinnon and Jenkinson from 100 Squadron and a Sgt Thomas Arthur Bird from 101 Squadron. All were RAF/RAFVR except for McKinnon with a much darker blue uniform.
Often, that aids identification (or at least separation) from RAF crew as usually "something" of the uniform survives even catastrophic fire.
I can accept that a midair collision may have occurred resulting in the wreckage of two aircraft being found together and thus identifying who was on what aircraft hard to resolve, but THREE different Squadrons?
In addition, it appears that some of the 100 Sqaudron crew were able to bale out or were in a separate part and identified individually.
In December 1942 100 Squadron reformed at RAF Waltham (Grimsby). The squadron was allocated 16 Lancaster Mk IIIs The first operational sortie took place on March 4th 1943, with a mine laying (gardening) operation to St. Nazaire, losing its first two aircraft on this raid. ED559 crashed in the target area, and ED549 crashed at Langar Airfield in Nottinghamshire whilst trying to land.
100 Squadron dropped a total of 18,108 tons of bombs in 3,984 individual sorties. The squadron lost 113 Lancasters during the War, costing the lives of 593 young men.
CHAPPELL, STANLEY FREDERICK WALTER. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Flt. Engr. Service No: 625153. Date of Death: 08/04/1943.
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force. 100 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: 2. E. 7. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
GRIMSHAW, CYRIL JAMES. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Air Gnr. Service No: 649407. Date of Death: 08/04/1943.
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force. 100 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: Coll. grave 2. E. 9-19. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY.
JENKINSON, HARRY. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: W.Op./Air Gnr. Service No: 1025847. Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Age: 22.
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 100 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: Coll. grave 2. E. 9-19. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Alan Patrick and Edith Jenkinson, of Coventry.
KNOWLES, MAURICE HENRY. Rank: Sergeant. Service No: 1575223. Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Age: 20.
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 100 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: 2. E. 8. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Charles Shirley Knowles and Mary Elizabeth Knowles, of Leicester.
McKINNON, JOHN ARNOTT. Rank: Squadron Leader. Trade: Pilot. Service No: J/4965. Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Age: 27.
Regiment/Service: Royal Canadian Air Force. 100 (R.A.F.) Sqdn
Grave Reference: Coll. grave 2. E. 9-19. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY.
Additional Information: Son of John Donald and Ruth Rebecca McKinnon, of Red Deer, Alberta, Canada.
MONTIGUE, RICHARD JAMES BRUCE. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Nav. Service No: 1331520. Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Age: 20.
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 100 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: 2. E. 6. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Laurence Herbert and Julia Mary Montigue, of Leigh-on-Sea, Essex.
SWEETLOVE, RONALD SPENCER. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Obs. Service No: 1029829. Date of Death: 08/04/1943.
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 100 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: Coll. grave 2. E. 9-19. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY.
I'll see if I can identify Ronnies Lancaster and anything else, but please feel free to comment if a plausible explanation occurs to anyone...
EDIT: After a bit of rooting around, I believe they were the crew of Lanc III ED568 coded "T" fitted with Mandrel and Gee. Take off at 21:30 from Grimsby headed for Duisburg. Bomb load all incendiaries; 30 x 4 lb X type incendiaries, 48 x 30 lb incendiaries and 510 x 4 lb incendiaries.
McKinnon was pilot; Montigue - Nav; Sweetlove - B/Aimer; Jenkinson W/Op; Chappell - F/Eng; Knowles M/U/G and Grimshaw R/G.
Loss card shows shot down and 4 identified. "Rae M" and others buried on 14 April in Munchen Gladbach.
Presumably other returning aircraft made the "shot down" report, unless the notation is post War from German night fighter records.......
That precludes a mid air if the aircraft was known to have been shot down.
Last edited by Icare9; 7th Jun 2014 at 08:59.
gzornenplatz
Your post re the upside down tailplane brings reminiscences of an experience I had whilst flying gliders. On a fairly windy day, I was asked to Hangar fly the old ASK7. The aircraft sat with tyres on wingtip and tail to counter the wind gusts. The lads helping me launch said no probs, we will get them off, so I strapped in. The ride up the winch launch was definitely different, and I needed a disturbing amount of forward elevator to keep it level. It wasn't beyond control though, so I floated around, and then landed by the hangar. You've got it, the lads at launch assumed that the two tyres on the tailplane would drop off on launch, someone had secured them with a rope. They were still there when I landed. I never got airborne after that, without personally removing any such clutter..
Smudge
Your post re the upside down tailplane brings reminiscences of an experience I had whilst flying gliders. On a fairly windy day, I was asked to Hangar fly the old ASK7. The aircraft sat with tyres on wingtip and tail to counter the wind gusts. The lads helping me launch said no probs, we will get them off, so I strapped in. The ride up the winch launch was definitely different, and I needed a disturbing amount of forward elevator to keep it level. It wasn't beyond control though, so I floated around, and then landed by the hangar. You've got it, the lads at launch assumed that the two tyres on the tailplane would drop off on launch, someone had secured them with a rope. They were still there when I landed. I never got airborne after that, without personally removing any such clutter..
Smudge
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Posts: n/a
Icare9,
Thank you for the meticulous research you've carried out on the sad end of S/Ldr McKinnon's crew, but I'm afraid that exactly how they died is just another of the wartime questions which can now never be answered. Many mid-air collisions must have happened in the tightly packed bomber "streams", and a report of an aircraft being "shot-down", even if correct, might relate to any aircraft in the stream.
The German burial squads will have done their best in the conditions of the time, and the CWGC done the same at the sorting-out stage; but in the aftermath of the crash of a burning bomber (particularly with bombs on board), all sorts of misidentification must have occurred among the few remains which could be recovered. To put it bluntly: "It's a wise body that knows its own (war) grave". This is a terrible thing to have to say, but it is (almost certainly) so.
One of the "RAF" Sergeants (the F/E, Chappel) would have been a Fitter (or a Mech) (Airframe) or (Engine), who'd enlisted pre-war and so been given a 600,000 series (RAF) number. Subsequently he'd volunteered for aircrew duties, been accepted and promoted to Sergeant.
What I'm not sure about is "RAF" Sergeant Grimshaw, the AG Normally, nearly all the other aircrew trades came in as RAFVR direct entry volunteers, and been allotted a seven-digit VR number like the other four (I was 1,1##,###) - pretty well in the middle of the "spread" of them. But he is in the same series as Chappel (the "RAF" 6-digits again); it is probable that he was originally a pre-war airman in some ground trade who had later volunteered for aircrew like Chappel.
For it seems to have been the practice, during the war, for all enlistments (whether "volunteers" or "pressed men") to have been into the RAFVR (7 digits), which rather negates the 'volunteer' part of the RAFVR title. Of course, once 'in', all aircrew were "true" Volunteers for that duty - it could not have been otherwise.
It may be significant that we have no ages for the two 'RAF' men, although we have for three of the four 'RAFVR' ( and Ron Sweetlove, the fourth, with a '1,0##,###' number, would have come in slightly before me - '1,1##,###", and cannot have been much older than I [21] when he died). I assume that the two 'RAF' would be older men.
And my guess about Ron was correct - he was now the 'Obs' (Nav) of the crew.
Cheers, Danny.
Thank you for the meticulous research you've carried out on the sad end of S/Ldr McKinnon's crew, but I'm afraid that exactly how they died is just another of the wartime questions which can now never be answered. Many mid-air collisions must have happened in the tightly packed bomber "streams", and a report of an aircraft being "shot-down", even if correct, might relate to any aircraft in the stream.
The German burial squads will have done their best in the conditions of the time, and the CWGC done the same at the sorting-out stage; but in the aftermath of the crash of a burning bomber (particularly with bombs on board), all sorts of misidentification must have occurred among the few remains which could be recovered. To put it bluntly: "It's a wise body that knows its own (war) grave". This is a terrible thing to have to say, but it is (almost certainly) so.
One of the "RAF" Sergeants (the F/E, Chappel) would have been a Fitter (or a Mech) (Airframe) or (Engine), who'd enlisted pre-war and so been given a 600,000 series (RAF) number. Subsequently he'd volunteered for aircrew duties, been accepted and promoted to Sergeant.
What I'm not sure about is "RAF" Sergeant Grimshaw, the AG Normally, nearly all the other aircrew trades came in as RAFVR direct entry volunteers, and been allotted a seven-digit VR number like the other four (I was 1,1##,###) - pretty well in the middle of the "spread" of them. But he is in the same series as Chappel (the "RAF" 6-digits again); it is probable that he was originally a pre-war airman in some ground trade who had later volunteered for aircrew like Chappel.
For it seems to have been the practice, during the war, for all enlistments (whether "volunteers" or "pressed men") to have been into the RAFVR (7 digits), which rather negates the 'volunteer' part of the RAFVR title. Of course, once 'in', all aircrew were "true" Volunteers for that duty - it could not have been otherwise.
It may be significant that we have no ages for the two 'RAF' men, although we have for three of the four 'RAFVR' ( and Ron Sweetlove, the fourth, with a '1,0##,###' number, would have come in slightly before me - '1,1##,###", and cannot have been much older than I [21] when he died). I assume that the two 'RAF' would be older men.
And my guess about Ron was correct - he was now the 'Obs' (Nav) of the crew.
Cheers, Danny.
Ronnie Sweetlove et al
Danny: Thank you for the compliment, but if I had been meticulous I would have completed the research a long while ago.
I appreciate the matter of fact way in which you have accepted the information and made logical sense of the situation.
There is no way of knowing so long after the event just what happened to these crews, but I am just a little surprised that McKinnon at least couldn't be specifically identified on reburial.
Both the German and Allied burial details would have known that bomber crews would be no more than 8, so there must ave been a solid reason that they were unable to separate the crews.
You have made the perceptive comment regarding the Service Numbers, and neither of the "RAF" regular airmen have any Additional Information, nor are their ages given.
As previously explained the Additional Information would be provided (where possible) by their families, and that not all families were either traced or responded, perhaps in the hope their loved ones were still alive but Missing "somewhere".
The age, however, would be provided by the RAF and it seems significant that the RAFVR ages were provided but not that for regular RAF. I'd not come across anything so clearly demarking RAF from RAFVR personnel.
You learn something every day!
Their Service Numbers certainly indicate a much earlier entry into the Air Force, so in all liklihood they would be at the higher end of the age bracket for aircrew.
For myself, I'm piqued by Montigue as he's from the same town as myself and i have recently been involved in trying to locate family for another WW2 Halifax casualty from Southend area.
It's an unusual surname and whilst initial searches seemed to indicate he had been born in Germany (!) his Birth was registered in West Ham 2nd Qtr 1922.
His mothers maiden name was Thompson so i believe the German connection is spurious.
In 1959 a Richard W L Montigue was registered as being born in Southend, so he would seem to have at least one brother marrying a Miss Harland.
I'm continuing to look out for details on the 44 Sqdn crew sharing the grave and also Sgt Bird and his 101 Sqdn aircraft.
Ronnie was the bomb aimer that night.
EDIT: Now traced at least the 44 Sqdn details:
44 squadron Lancaster Mk I ED351 coded "S" from Waddington. Bomb load 1 x 4,000 lb cookie and 12 cases of 6x3M IB (incendiary bombs?)
Fitted with TR1335
HAINES, IVAN CHARLES. Rank: Flight Sergeant. Trade: Pilot. Service No: 1257965. Date of Death: 08/04/1943.
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 44 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: Coll. grave 2. E. 9-19. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY.
ASBURY, REGINALD ARTHUR. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Nav. Service No: 1241805. Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Age: 22.
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 44 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: Coll. grave 2. E. 9-19. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Albert Thomas Asbury and Harriot Madeline Asbury, of Birmingham.
PRINCE, RALPH GREGORY. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Bomb Aimer. Service No: 1218594. Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Age: 20.
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 44 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: Coll. grave 2. E. 9-19. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Joseph Evley Prince, D.C.M., M.M., and Alice Jane Prince, of Hull.
(Note: shown on Loss Card as being the W/Op)
RICHARDSON, STANLEY. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Flt. Engr. Service No: 949104. Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Age: 24.
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 44 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: Coll. grave 2. E. 9-19. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of William and Lydia Richardson; husband of Hilda Richardson, of Moses Gate, Farnworth, Lancashire.
WARD, FRANK GLENISTER. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: W.Op./Air Gnr. Service No: 1020872. Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Age: 20.
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 44 Sqdn.
Grave Reference Coll. grave 2. E. 9-19. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Frank Glenister Ward and Dorothy Ward, of Newcastle-on-Tyne.
(not on Loss card crew list, the M/U/G is shown as Sgt E Strandberg, R134019).
YEO, LOUIS JOHN. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Air Gnr. Service No: 1314128. Date of Death: 08/04/1943.
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 44 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: Coll. grave 2. E. 9-19. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
STRANDBERG, EDWIN. Rank: Warrant Officer Class II. Trade: Air Gnr. Service No: R/134019. Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Age: 19.
Regiment/Service: Royal Canadian Air Force. 44 (R.A.F.) Sqdn
Grave Reference: 2. E. 4. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of John Edwin and Elvera E. Strandberg, of Renton, Washington, U.S.A.
(The crew list does not show any name as rear gunner, it seems a badly completed card from 44 Sqdn so the RAF didn't seem to know who had been aboard, though no doubt Ward would have been found to be missing at Roll Call, but never entered on the Loss card.)
Loss Card shows a notation that Haines and "several" others buried 14 April in Munchen Gladbach. Again refers to the aircraft as being shot down.
At first glance it would seem that this "should" be the crew in one collective grave but by some mischance some other aircrew were perhaps transported together and unable to be separately identified as being which crew from which aircraft. Strandberg, however, as an RCAF uniformed body, was able to be separately identified and is buried in an individual grave.
BIRD, THOMAS ARTHUR. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Air Gnr. Service No: 1337140. Date of Death: 08/04/1943.
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 101 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: Coll. grave 2. E. 9-19. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
A bit more of a puzzle, I can't find any Loss Card for a 101 Squadron aircraft or any other CWGC 101 Squadron deaths that night.
I did think I had found his aircraft Loss Card with him as rear gunner, but not able to find it again today!
The non collective grave burials in Duisburg for 8/9 April are all in Plot 2 Row E commencing with Pilot Officer A J Gurr 143231 of 15 Squadron in 2E3, then Strandberg the RCAF member of the 44 Sqdn crew; F/Sgt J R Riley 415182 RAAF (no Squadron detail) in 2E5 (Date of death shown as 9 April, from the following nights raid also on Duisburg) then Montigue, Chappell and Knowles from 100 Squadron.
2E9 to 19 is the collective grave and 2E20 is F/Sgt Arthur Cox, DFM 952058 from 405 (RCAF) also an 8th April casualty..
The next burials are from 27 April.
A rather eclectic mix of Squadrons, let alone nationalities but I'm hopeful that the remainder of these other crews survived.
I'm sorry to dredge up these memories, please continue with your reminiscences, but I couldn't leave the information once i had put it together.
It may not be pleasant but at least the information may help others who may be making their own searches for what happened.
I appreciate the matter of fact way in which you have accepted the information and made logical sense of the situation.
There is no way of knowing so long after the event just what happened to these crews, but I am just a little surprised that McKinnon at least couldn't be specifically identified on reburial.
Both the German and Allied burial details would have known that bomber crews would be no more than 8, so there must ave been a solid reason that they were unable to separate the crews.
You have made the perceptive comment regarding the Service Numbers, and neither of the "RAF" regular airmen have any Additional Information, nor are their ages given.
As previously explained the Additional Information would be provided (where possible) by their families, and that not all families were either traced or responded, perhaps in the hope their loved ones were still alive but Missing "somewhere".
The age, however, would be provided by the RAF and it seems significant that the RAFVR ages were provided but not that for regular RAF. I'd not come across anything so clearly demarking RAF from RAFVR personnel.
You learn something every day!
Their Service Numbers certainly indicate a much earlier entry into the Air Force, so in all liklihood they would be at the higher end of the age bracket for aircrew.
For myself, I'm piqued by Montigue as he's from the same town as myself and i have recently been involved in trying to locate family for another WW2 Halifax casualty from Southend area.
It's an unusual surname and whilst initial searches seemed to indicate he had been born in Germany (!) his Birth was registered in West Ham 2nd Qtr 1922.
His mothers maiden name was Thompson so i believe the German connection is spurious.
In 1959 a Richard W L Montigue was registered as being born in Southend, so he would seem to have at least one brother marrying a Miss Harland.
I'm continuing to look out for details on the 44 Sqdn crew sharing the grave and also Sgt Bird and his 101 Sqdn aircraft.
Ronnie was the bomb aimer that night.
EDIT: Now traced at least the 44 Sqdn details:
44 squadron Lancaster Mk I ED351 coded "S" from Waddington. Bomb load 1 x 4,000 lb cookie and 12 cases of 6x3M IB (incendiary bombs?)
Fitted with TR1335
HAINES, IVAN CHARLES. Rank: Flight Sergeant. Trade: Pilot. Service No: 1257965. Date of Death: 08/04/1943.
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 44 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: Coll. grave 2. E. 9-19. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY.
ASBURY, REGINALD ARTHUR. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Nav. Service No: 1241805. Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Age: 22.
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 44 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: Coll. grave 2. E. 9-19. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Albert Thomas Asbury and Harriot Madeline Asbury, of Birmingham.
PRINCE, RALPH GREGORY. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Bomb Aimer. Service No: 1218594. Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Age: 20.
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 44 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: Coll. grave 2. E. 9-19. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Joseph Evley Prince, D.C.M., M.M., and Alice Jane Prince, of Hull.
(Note: shown on Loss Card as being the W/Op)
RICHARDSON, STANLEY. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Flt. Engr. Service No: 949104. Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Age: 24.
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 44 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: Coll. grave 2. E. 9-19. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of William and Lydia Richardson; husband of Hilda Richardson, of Moses Gate, Farnworth, Lancashire.
WARD, FRANK GLENISTER. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: W.Op./Air Gnr. Service No: 1020872. Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Age: 20.
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 44 Sqdn.
Grave Reference Coll. grave 2. E. 9-19. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Frank Glenister Ward and Dorothy Ward, of Newcastle-on-Tyne.
(not on Loss card crew list, the M/U/G is shown as Sgt E Strandberg, R134019).
YEO, LOUIS JOHN. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Air Gnr. Service No: 1314128. Date of Death: 08/04/1943.
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 44 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: Coll. grave 2. E. 9-19. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
STRANDBERG, EDWIN. Rank: Warrant Officer Class II. Trade: Air Gnr. Service No: R/134019. Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Age: 19.
Regiment/Service: Royal Canadian Air Force. 44 (R.A.F.) Sqdn
Grave Reference: 2. E. 4. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of John Edwin and Elvera E. Strandberg, of Renton, Washington, U.S.A.
(The crew list does not show any name as rear gunner, it seems a badly completed card from 44 Sqdn so the RAF didn't seem to know who had been aboard, though no doubt Ward would have been found to be missing at Roll Call, but never entered on the Loss card.)
Loss Card shows a notation that Haines and "several" others buried 14 April in Munchen Gladbach. Again refers to the aircraft as being shot down.
At first glance it would seem that this "should" be the crew in one collective grave but by some mischance some other aircrew were perhaps transported together and unable to be separately identified as being which crew from which aircraft. Strandberg, however, as an RCAF uniformed body, was able to be separately identified and is buried in an individual grave.
BIRD, THOMAS ARTHUR. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Air Gnr. Service No: 1337140. Date of Death: 08/04/1943.
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 101 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: Coll. grave 2. E. 9-19. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
A bit more of a puzzle, I can't find any Loss Card for a 101 Squadron aircraft or any other CWGC 101 Squadron deaths that night.
I did think I had found his aircraft Loss Card with him as rear gunner, but not able to find it again today!
The non collective grave burials in Duisburg for 8/9 April are all in Plot 2 Row E commencing with Pilot Officer A J Gurr 143231 of 15 Squadron in 2E3, then Strandberg the RCAF member of the 44 Sqdn crew; F/Sgt J R Riley 415182 RAAF (no Squadron detail) in 2E5 (Date of death shown as 9 April, from the following nights raid also on Duisburg) then Montigue, Chappell and Knowles from 100 Squadron.
2E9 to 19 is the collective grave and 2E20 is F/Sgt Arthur Cox, DFM 952058 from 405 (RCAF) also an 8th April casualty..
The next burials are from 27 April.
A rather eclectic mix of Squadrons, let alone nationalities but I'm hopeful that the remainder of these other crews survived.
I'm sorry to dredge up these memories, please continue with your reminiscences, but I couldn't leave the information once i had put it together.
It may not be pleasant but at least the information may help others who may be making their own searches for what happened.
Last edited by Icare9; 8th Jun 2014 at 00:38.
RAF Service Numbers can still indicate how you joined! My number starts with 262 which indicates I joined from University having been a VR member of the University Air Squadron first.
HF
HF
Thanks HF Jr and PeteT.
Just spent the morning trawling through the Loss Cards.
15 Squadron Stirling Mk I EF359 from Bourne. Bomb load 1 x 2,000 lb HX; 1x500 lb (LD37) 1 x 500 lb (LD37E). Neither the mid upper nor rear gunner are buried at Rheinberg, but in two separate Plots (not adjacent graves) in Reichswald Forest Cemetery. That suggests that they were widely separated from the rest of the crew who may have been unable to bale out and thus all found in the wreckage a distance away from where the two gunners came down. The Loss Card reports that 4 were identified, and that Hall was initially buried at Meerback on 22 April. Lutwyche was buried on 6 May at Ursoy (SW of Duisberg) and that Williams was washed up at Werd am Rhein and buried on 21 April at Dusseldorf.
BRAGG, WILFRED SPENCER. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Flt. Engr. Service No: 621785.
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Age: 23. Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force. 15 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: Joint grave 2. E. 1-2. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of George Harding Bragg and Janet Eliza Bragg, of Gillingham, Kent.
GURR, ANTHONY JOHN. Rank: Pilot Officer. Trade: Pilot. Service No: 143231. Age: 20.
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 15 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: 2. E. 3. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY.
Additional Information: Son of Frank and Elizabeth Charlotte Gurr, of St. Margarets, Twickenham, Middlesex.
KIMBER, JOHN EVAN SAMUEL. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: W.Op./Air Gnr. Service No: 1290705. Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 15 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: Joint grave 2. E. 1-2. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of John Evan and Hilda Edith Kimber, of Croydon, Surrey; husband of J. E. S. Kimber, of Croydon.
LAMBERT, FREDERICK GEORGE. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Air Bomber. Service No: 1339473. Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Age: 20. Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 15 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: 2. D. 25. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Wade Foster Lambert and Julia Lambert, of Ilford, Essex. His brother, John James Lambert, also died on service.
LUTWYCHE, PERCY. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Nav. Service No: 1235760.
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 15 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: 14. D. 22. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
HALL, JAMES. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Air Gnr. Service No: 1527292. Date of Death: 08/04/1943.
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 15 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: 26. G. 16. Cemetery: REICHSWALD FOREST WAR CEMETERY.
WILLIAMS, IVOR WYN. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Air Gnr. Service No: 1504193. Age: 20.
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 15 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: 9. C. 15. Cemetery: REICHSWALD FOREST WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Gwyn and Annie Williams, of Penrhos, Caernarvonshire.
COX, ARTHUR. Rank: Flight Sergeant. Trade: Air Gnr. Service No: 952028. Awards: D F M
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 405 (R.C.A.F.) Sqdn
Grave Reference: 2. E. 20. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY.
(Still to trace aircraft and rest of crew)
156 Squadron Lancaster Mk I ED622 coded “?”. Take off: 21:42 from Warboys. Bomb load Not yet known: Crashed near Koln where burials were held 13 April in Koln Sud but all now rest in Rheinberg. Sgt Grace may have been Canadian, he certainly was married to a Canadian girl. There is a possibility that Younger was also born in Canada.
YOUNGER, ROBERT GRAHAM. Rank: Flight Sergeant. Trade: Pilot. Service No: 401344.
Age: 27. Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Service: Royal Australian Air Force. (156 Squadron).
Grave Reference: 4. E. 5. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Thomas Brydon Younger and Elizabeth Ann Younger, of East St. Kilda, Victoria, Australia.
FERGUSON, NOEL. Rank: Pilot Officer. Trade: Nav. Service No: 404716. Age: 21.
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Service: Royal Australian Air Force. (156 Squadron).
Grave Reference: 4. E. 6. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Arthur Vivian and Gladys Mary Ferguson, of Toowong, Queensland, Australia.
FLETT, RODERICK HENRY. Rank: Flight Sergeant. Trade: W/Op. Service No: 403691. Age: 26.
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Regiment/Service: Royal Australian Air Force. (156 Squadron).
Grave Reference: 4. E. 7. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Stanley Alexander Flett and Beryl Jane Flett; husband of Joan Flett, of Garah, New South Wales, Australia.
WHITE, STANLEY MUSGRAVE. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: F/Eng. Service No: 15319. Age: 30.
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Regiment/Service: Royal Australian Air Force. (156 Squadron).
Grave Reference: 4. E. 8. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Alfred Musgrave White and Eva Mary Maddocks White; husband of Marjorie Beryl White, of Kellyville, New South Wales, Australia.
STOPFORD, NEWMAN G. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Nav./Bomb Aimer Service No: 656400.
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force. 156 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: 4. E. 9. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
GRACE, JAMES PEARCE MASSEY. Rank: Flight Sergeant. Trade: M/U/G. Service No: 404582. Age: 26. Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Service: Royal Australian Air Force. (156 Squadron).
Grave Reference: 4. E. 10. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of James Pearce Francis and of Winifred Maria Grace, of Brisbane, Queensland, Australia; husband of Dorothy Mabel Grace, of Montreal, Quebec, Canada.
JACKSON, ALBERT JAMES. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Air Gnr. Service No: 1322187. Age: 20.
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 156 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: 4. E. 11. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Fanny Jackson, of Holloway, London.
101 Squadron Lancaster Mk III ED608 coded “T” from Holme on 2nd raid on 9 April. Bomb load 60 x 4 lb incendiaries, 48 x 30 lb X type incendiaries and 480 x 4 lb incendiaries. Shot down by flak at 21,000 ft over Duisberg. Bomb load jettisoned. Riley the mid upper and Bird the rear gunner were killed, the rest of the crew (P/Off E M Nelson AUS/401227 – pilot - PoW; F/Sgt R B A Pender AUS/411517 - Nav – safe; F/Sgt R A Parnell AUS/411514 – W/Op – PoW; F/Sgt C W Shields – B/Aimer – PoW; Sgt E V Newstead (RAFVR) 638014 – F/Eng – safe. Unusual for the pilot etc to bale out, usually it’s the 2 gunners that escape while the rest of the crew are in the wreckage. Even more unusual for 2 shot down aircrew to escape from inside Germany, from Duisberg.
BIRD, THOMAS ARTHUR. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Air Gnr. Service No: 1337140.
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 101 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: Coll. grave 2. E. 9-19. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY.
RILEY, JOHN RICHMOND. Rank: Flight Sergeant. Service No: 415182. Age: 28.
Date of Death: 09/04/1943. Regiment/Service: Royal Australian Air Force. (101 Squadron).
Grave Reference: 2. E. 5. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY.
That's all I have so far.
It's just my curiosity on why so many in one collective grave and the random spread of the other burials associated with the various aircraft. it also seems that "shot down" more often refers to flak rather than fighters.
Just spent the morning trawling through the Loss Cards.
15 Squadron Stirling Mk I EF359 from Bourne. Bomb load 1 x 2,000 lb HX; 1x500 lb (LD37) 1 x 500 lb (LD37E). Neither the mid upper nor rear gunner are buried at Rheinberg, but in two separate Plots (not adjacent graves) in Reichswald Forest Cemetery. That suggests that they were widely separated from the rest of the crew who may have been unable to bale out and thus all found in the wreckage a distance away from where the two gunners came down. The Loss Card reports that 4 were identified, and that Hall was initially buried at Meerback on 22 April. Lutwyche was buried on 6 May at Ursoy (SW of Duisberg) and that Williams was washed up at Werd am Rhein and buried on 21 April at Dusseldorf.
BRAGG, WILFRED SPENCER. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Flt. Engr. Service No: 621785.
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Age: 23. Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force. 15 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: Joint grave 2. E. 1-2. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of George Harding Bragg and Janet Eliza Bragg, of Gillingham, Kent.
GURR, ANTHONY JOHN. Rank: Pilot Officer. Trade: Pilot. Service No: 143231. Age: 20.
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 15 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: 2. E. 3. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY.
Additional Information: Son of Frank and Elizabeth Charlotte Gurr, of St. Margarets, Twickenham, Middlesex.
KIMBER, JOHN EVAN SAMUEL. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: W.Op./Air Gnr. Service No: 1290705. Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 15 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: Joint grave 2. E. 1-2. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of John Evan and Hilda Edith Kimber, of Croydon, Surrey; husband of J. E. S. Kimber, of Croydon.
LAMBERT, FREDERICK GEORGE. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Air Bomber. Service No: 1339473. Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Age: 20. Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 15 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: 2. D. 25. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Wade Foster Lambert and Julia Lambert, of Ilford, Essex. His brother, John James Lambert, also died on service.
LUTWYCHE, PERCY. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Nav. Service No: 1235760.
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 15 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: 14. D. 22. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
HALL, JAMES. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Air Gnr. Service No: 1527292. Date of Death: 08/04/1943.
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 15 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: 26. G. 16. Cemetery: REICHSWALD FOREST WAR CEMETERY.
WILLIAMS, IVOR WYN. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Air Gnr. Service No: 1504193. Age: 20.
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 15 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: 9. C. 15. Cemetery: REICHSWALD FOREST WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Gwyn and Annie Williams, of Penrhos, Caernarvonshire.
COX, ARTHUR. Rank: Flight Sergeant. Trade: Air Gnr. Service No: 952028. Awards: D F M
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 405 (R.C.A.F.) Sqdn
Grave Reference: 2. E. 20. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY.
(Still to trace aircraft and rest of crew)
156 Squadron Lancaster Mk I ED622 coded “?”. Take off: 21:42 from Warboys. Bomb load Not yet known: Crashed near Koln where burials were held 13 April in Koln Sud but all now rest in Rheinberg. Sgt Grace may have been Canadian, he certainly was married to a Canadian girl. There is a possibility that Younger was also born in Canada.
YOUNGER, ROBERT GRAHAM. Rank: Flight Sergeant. Trade: Pilot. Service No: 401344.
Age: 27. Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Service: Royal Australian Air Force. (156 Squadron).
Grave Reference: 4. E. 5. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Thomas Brydon Younger and Elizabeth Ann Younger, of East St. Kilda, Victoria, Australia.
FERGUSON, NOEL. Rank: Pilot Officer. Trade: Nav. Service No: 404716. Age: 21.
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Service: Royal Australian Air Force. (156 Squadron).
Grave Reference: 4. E. 6. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Arthur Vivian and Gladys Mary Ferguson, of Toowong, Queensland, Australia.
FLETT, RODERICK HENRY. Rank: Flight Sergeant. Trade: W/Op. Service No: 403691. Age: 26.
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Regiment/Service: Royal Australian Air Force. (156 Squadron).
Grave Reference: 4. E. 7. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Stanley Alexander Flett and Beryl Jane Flett; husband of Joan Flett, of Garah, New South Wales, Australia.
WHITE, STANLEY MUSGRAVE. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: F/Eng. Service No: 15319. Age: 30.
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Regiment/Service: Royal Australian Air Force. (156 Squadron).
Grave Reference: 4. E. 8. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Alfred Musgrave White and Eva Mary Maddocks White; husband of Marjorie Beryl White, of Kellyville, New South Wales, Australia.
STOPFORD, NEWMAN G. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Nav./Bomb Aimer Service No: 656400.
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force. 156 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: 4. E. 9. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
GRACE, JAMES PEARCE MASSEY. Rank: Flight Sergeant. Trade: M/U/G. Service No: 404582. Age: 26. Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Service: Royal Australian Air Force. (156 Squadron).
Grave Reference: 4. E. 10. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of James Pearce Francis and of Winifred Maria Grace, of Brisbane, Queensland, Australia; husband of Dorothy Mabel Grace, of Montreal, Quebec, Canada.
JACKSON, ALBERT JAMES. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Air Gnr. Service No: 1322187. Age: 20.
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 156 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: 4. E. 11. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Fanny Jackson, of Holloway, London.
101 Squadron Lancaster Mk III ED608 coded “T” from Holme on 2nd raid on 9 April. Bomb load 60 x 4 lb incendiaries, 48 x 30 lb X type incendiaries and 480 x 4 lb incendiaries. Shot down by flak at 21,000 ft over Duisberg. Bomb load jettisoned. Riley the mid upper and Bird the rear gunner were killed, the rest of the crew (P/Off E M Nelson AUS/401227 – pilot - PoW; F/Sgt R B A Pender AUS/411517 - Nav – safe; F/Sgt R A Parnell AUS/411514 – W/Op – PoW; F/Sgt C W Shields – B/Aimer – PoW; Sgt E V Newstead (RAFVR) 638014 – F/Eng – safe. Unusual for the pilot etc to bale out, usually it’s the 2 gunners that escape while the rest of the crew are in the wreckage. Even more unusual for 2 shot down aircrew to escape from inside Germany, from Duisberg.
BIRD, THOMAS ARTHUR. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Air Gnr. Service No: 1337140.
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 101 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: Coll. grave 2. E. 9-19. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY.
RILEY, JOHN RICHMOND. Rank: Flight Sergeant. Service No: 415182. Age: 28.
Date of Death: 09/04/1943. Regiment/Service: Royal Australian Air Force. (101 Squadron).
Grave Reference: 2. E. 5. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY.
That's all I have so far.
It's just my curiosity on why so many in one collective grave and the random spread of the other burials associated with the various aircraft. it also seems that "shot down" more often refers to flak rather than fighters.
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One of my recent research projects identified that the remains of some of the airmen from one aircraft had been buried in a collective grave along with the remains of airmen from six other aircraft.
One other thing of interest was that although the plot was numbered 1-20, it contained the remains of 25 personnel, each with their own individual headstone. The CWGC sent me an explanation, which I feel is too sensitive to publish here.
Regards
Pete
One other thing of interest was that although the plot was numbered 1-20, it contained the remains of 25 personnel, each with their own individual headstone. The CWGC sent me an explanation, which I feel is too sensitive to publish here.
Regards
Pete
Thanks HF Jr and PeteT.
Just spent the morning trawling through the Loss Cards.
15 Squadron Stirling Mk I EF359 from Bourne. Bomb load 1 x 2,000 lb HX; 1x500 lb (LD37) 1 x 500 lb (LD37E). Neither the mid upper nor rear gunner are buried at Rheinberg, but in two separate Plots (not adjacent graves) in Reichswald Forest Cemetery. That suggests that they were widely separated from the rest of the crew who may have been unable to bale out and thus all found in the wreckage a distance away from where the two gunners came down. The Loss Card reports that 4 were identified, and that Hall was initially buried at Meerback on 22 April. Lutwyche was buried on 6 May at Ursoy (SW of Duisberg) and that Williams was washed up at Werd am Rhein and buried on 21 April at Dusseldorf.
BRAGG, WILFRED SPENCER. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Flt. Engr. Service No: 621785.
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Age: 23. Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force. 15 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: Joint grave 2. E. 1-2. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of George Harding Bragg and Janet Eliza Bragg, of Gillingham, Kent.
GURR, ANTHONY JOHN. Rank: Pilot Officer. Trade: Pilot. Service No: 143231. Age: 20.
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 15 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: 2. E. 3. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY.
Additional Information: Son of Frank and Elizabeth Charlotte Gurr, of St. Margarets, Twickenham, Middlesex.
KIMBER, JOHN EVAN SAMUEL. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: W.Op./Air Gnr. Service No: 1290705. Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 15 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: Joint grave 2. E. 1-2. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of John Evan and Hilda Edith Kimber, of Croydon, Surrey; husband of J. E. S. Kimber, of Croydon.
LAMBERT, FREDERICK GEORGE. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Air Bomber. Service No: 1339473. Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Age: 20. Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 15 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: 2. D. 25. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Wade Foster Lambert and Julia Lambert, of Ilford, Essex. His brother, John James Lambert, also died on service.
LUTWYCHE, PERCY. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Nav. Service No: 1235760.
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 15 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: 14. D. 22. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
HALL, JAMES. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Air Gnr. Service No: 1527292. Date of Death: 08/04/1943.
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 15 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: 26. G. 16. Cemetery: REICHSWALD FOREST WAR CEMETERY.
WILLIAMS, IVOR WYN. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Air Gnr. Service No: 1504193. Age: 20.
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 15 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: 9. C. 15. Cemetery: REICHSWALD FOREST WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Gwyn and Annie Williams, of Penrhos, Caernarvonshire.
COX, ARTHUR. Rank: Flight Sergeant. Trade: Air Gnr. Service No: 952028. Awards: D F M
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 405 (R.C.A.F.) Sqdn
Grave Reference: 2. E. 20. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY.
156 Squadron Lancaster Mk I ED622 coded “?”. Take off: 21:42 from Warboys. Bomb load: Crashed near Koln where burials were held 13 April in Koln Sud but all now rest in Rheinberg. Sgt Grace may have been Canadian, he certainly was married to a Canadian girl. There is a possibility that Younger was also born in Canada.
YOUNGER, ROBERT GRAHAM. Rank: Flight Sergeant. Trade: Pilot. Service No: 401344.
Age: 27. Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Service: Royal Australian Air Force. (156 Squadron).
Grave Reference: 4. E. 5. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Thomas Brydon Younger and Elizabeth Ann Younger, of East St. Kilda, Victoria, Australia.
FERGUSON, NOEL. Rank: Pilot Officer. Trade: Nav. Service No: 404716. Age: 21.
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Service: Royal Australian Air Force. (156 Squadron).
Grave Reference: 4. E. 6. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Arthur Vivian and Gladys Mary Ferguson, of Toowong, Queensland, Australia.
FLETT, RODERICK HENRY. Rank: Flight Sergeant. Trade: W/Op. Service No: 403691. Age: 26.
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Regiment/Service: Royal Australian Air Force. (156 Squadron).
Grave Reference: 4. E. 7. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Stanley Alexander Flett and Beryl Jane Flett; husband of Joan Flett, of Garah, New South Wales, Australia.
WHITE, STANLEY MUSGRAVE. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: F/Eng. Service No: 15319. Age: 30.
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Regiment/Service: Royal Australian Air Force. (156 Squadron).
Grave Reference: 4. E. 8. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Alfred Musgrave White and Eva Mary Maddocks White; husband of Marjorie Beryl White, of Kellyville, New South Wales, Australia.
STOPFORD, NEWMAN G. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Nav./Bomb Aimer Service No: 656400.
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force. 156 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: 4. E. 9. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
GRACE, JAMES PEARCE MASSEY. Rank: Flight Sergeant. Trade: M/U/G. Service No: 404582. Age: 26. Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Service: Royal Australian Air Force. (156 Squadron).
Grave Reference: 4. E. 10. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of James Pearce Francis and of Winifred Maria Grace, of Brisbane, Queensland, Australia; husband of Dorothy Mabel Grace, of Montreal, Quebec, Canada.
JACKSON, ALBERT JAMES. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Air Gnr. Service No: 1322187. Age: 20.
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 156 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: 4. E. 11. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Fanny Jackson, of Holloway, London.
101 Squadron Lancaster Mk III ED608 coded “T” from Holme on 2nd raid on 9 April. Bomb load 60 x 4 lb incendiaries, 48 x 30 lb X type incendiaries and 480 x 4 lb incendiaries. Shot down by flak at 21,000 ft over Duisberg. Bomb load jettisoned. Riley the mid upper and Bird the rear gunner were killed, the rest of the crew (P/Off E M Nelson AUS/401227 – pilot - PoW; F/Sgt R B A Pender AUS/411517 - Nav – safe; F/Sgt R A Parnell AUS/411514 – W/Op – PoW; F/Sgt C W Shields – B/Aimer – PoW; Sgt E V Newstead (RAFVR) 638014 – F/Eng – safe. Unusual for the pilot etc to bale out, usually it’s the 2 gunners that escape while the rest of the crew are in the wreckage. Even more unusual for 2 shot sown aircrew to escape from inside Germany, from Duisberg.
BIRD, THOMAS ARTHUR. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Air Gnr. Service No: 1337140.
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 101 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: Coll. grave 2. E. 9-19. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY.
RILEY, JOHN RICHMOND. Rank: Flight Sergeant. Service No: 415182. Age: 28.
Date of Death: 09/04/1943. Regiment/Service: Royal Australian Air Force.
Grave Reference: 2. E. 5. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY.
That's all I have so far.
It's just my curiosity on why so many in one collective grave and the random spread of the other burials associated with the various aircraft. it also seems that "shot down" more often refers to flak rather than fighters.
Just spent the morning trawling through the Loss Cards.
15 Squadron Stirling Mk I EF359 from Bourne. Bomb load 1 x 2,000 lb HX; 1x500 lb (LD37) 1 x 500 lb (LD37E). Neither the mid upper nor rear gunner are buried at Rheinberg, but in two separate Plots (not adjacent graves) in Reichswald Forest Cemetery. That suggests that they were widely separated from the rest of the crew who may have been unable to bale out and thus all found in the wreckage a distance away from where the two gunners came down. The Loss Card reports that 4 were identified, and that Hall was initially buried at Meerback on 22 April. Lutwyche was buried on 6 May at Ursoy (SW of Duisberg) and that Williams was washed up at Werd am Rhein and buried on 21 April at Dusseldorf.
BRAGG, WILFRED SPENCER. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Flt. Engr. Service No: 621785.
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Age: 23. Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force. 15 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: Joint grave 2. E. 1-2. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of George Harding Bragg and Janet Eliza Bragg, of Gillingham, Kent.
GURR, ANTHONY JOHN. Rank: Pilot Officer. Trade: Pilot. Service No: 143231. Age: 20.
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 15 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: 2. E. 3. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY.
Additional Information: Son of Frank and Elizabeth Charlotte Gurr, of St. Margarets, Twickenham, Middlesex.
KIMBER, JOHN EVAN SAMUEL. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: W.Op./Air Gnr. Service No: 1290705. Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 15 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: Joint grave 2. E. 1-2. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of John Evan and Hilda Edith Kimber, of Croydon, Surrey; husband of J. E. S. Kimber, of Croydon.
LAMBERT, FREDERICK GEORGE. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Air Bomber. Service No: 1339473. Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Age: 20. Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 15 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: 2. D. 25. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Wade Foster Lambert and Julia Lambert, of Ilford, Essex. His brother, John James Lambert, also died on service.
LUTWYCHE, PERCY. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Nav. Service No: 1235760.
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 15 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: 14. D. 22. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
HALL, JAMES. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Air Gnr. Service No: 1527292. Date of Death: 08/04/1943.
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 15 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: 26. G. 16. Cemetery: REICHSWALD FOREST WAR CEMETERY.
WILLIAMS, IVOR WYN. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Air Gnr. Service No: 1504193. Age: 20.
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 15 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: 9. C. 15. Cemetery: REICHSWALD FOREST WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Gwyn and Annie Williams, of Penrhos, Caernarvonshire.
COX, ARTHUR. Rank: Flight Sergeant. Trade: Air Gnr. Service No: 952028. Awards: D F M
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 405 (R.C.A.F.) Sqdn
Grave Reference: 2. E. 20. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY.
156 Squadron Lancaster Mk I ED622 coded “?”. Take off: 21:42 from Warboys. Bomb load: Crashed near Koln where burials were held 13 April in Koln Sud but all now rest in Rheinberg. Sgt Grace may have been Canadian, he certainly was married to a Canadian girl. There is a possibility that Younger was also born in Canada.
YOUNGER, ROBERT GRAHAM. Rank: Flight Sergeant. Trade: Pilot. Service No: 401344.
Age: 27. Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Service: Royal Australian Air Force. (156 Squadron).
Grave Reference: 4. E. 5. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Thomas Brydon Younger and Elizabeth Ann Younger, of East St. Kilda, Victoria, Australia.
FERGUSON, NOEL. Rank: Pilot Officer. Trade: Nav. Service No: 404716. Age: 21.
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Service: Royal Australian Air Force. (156 Squadron).
Grave Reference: 4. E. 6. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Arthur Vivian and Gladys Mary Ferguson, of Toowong, Queensland, Australia.
FLETT, RODERICK HENRY. Rank: Flight Sergeant. Trade: W/Op. Service No: 403691. Age: 26.
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Regiment/Service: Royal Australian Air Force. (156 Squadron).
Grave Reference: 4. E. 7. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Stanley Alexander Flett and Beryl Jane Flett; husband of Joan Flett, of Garah, New South Wales, Australia.
WHITE, STANLEY MUSGRAVE. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: F/Eng. Service No: 15319. Age: 30.
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Regiment/Service: Royal Australian Air Force. (156 Squadron).
Grave Reference: 4. E. 8. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Alfred Musgrave White and Eva Mary Maddocks White; husband of Marjorie Beryl White, of Kellyville, New South Wales, Australia.
STOPFORD, NEWMAN G. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Nav./Bomb Aimer Service No: 656400.
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force. 156 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: 4. E. 9. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
GRACE, JAMES PEARCE MASSEY. Rank: Flight Sergeant. Trade: M/U/G. Service No: 404582. Age: 26. Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Service: Royal Australian Air Force. (156 Squadron).
Grave Reference: 4. E. 10. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of James Pearce Francis and of Winifred Maria Grace, of Brisbane, Queensland, Australia; husband of Dorothy Mabel Grace, of Montreal, Quebec, Canada.
JACKSON, ALBERT JAMES. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Air Gnr. Service No: 1322187. Age: 20.
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 156 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: 4. E. 11. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Fanny Jackson, of Holloway, London.
101 Squadron Lancaster Mk III ED608 coded “T” from Holme on 2nd raid on 9 April. Bomb load 60 x 4 lb incendiaries, 48 x 30 lb X type incendiaries and 480 x 4 lb incendiaries. Shot down by flak at 21,000 ft over Duisberg. Bomb load jettisoned. Riley the mid upper and Bird the rear gunner were killed, the rest of the crew (P/Off E M Nelson AUS/401227 – pilot - PoW; F/Sgt R B A Pender AUS/411517 - Nav – safe; F/Sgt R A Parnell AUS/411514 – W/Op – PoW; F/Sgt C W Shields – B/Aimer – PoW; Sgt E V Newstead (RAFVR) 638014 – F/Eng – safe. Unusual for the pilot etc to bale out, usually it’s the 2 gunners that escape while the rest of the crew are in the wreckage. Even more unusual for 2 shot sown aircrew to escape from inside Germany, from Duisberg.
BIRD, THOMAS ARTHUR. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Air Gnr. Service No: 1337140.
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 101 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: Coll. grave 2. E. 9-19. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY.
RILEY, JOHN RICHMOND. Rank: Flight Sergeant. Service No: 415182. Age: 28.
Date of Death: 09/04/1943. Regiment/Service: Royal Australian Air Force.
Grave Reference: 2. E. 5. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY.
That's all I have so far.
It's just my curiosity on why so many in one collective grave and the random spread of the other burials associated with the various aircraft. it also seems that "shot down" more often refers to flak rather than fighters.
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Gaining an RAF pilots brevet in WW2
Hummingbird
Enlisting in Nov 43 at Penarth before going to EUAS in April 44 on a Short Course I was given a 3 million service number which I believe denoted that one had been in the ATC.
I have no idea when the 3 million series started and wonder if any of this series became war casualties
Enlisting in Nov 43 at Penarth before going to EUAS in April 44 on a Short Course I was given a 3 million service number which I believe denoted that one had been in the ATC.
I have no idea when the 3 million series started and wonder if any of this series became war casualties
DFCP (DFC award?)
A very quick check reveals at least one
ROYAL, ROBERT ERIC. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Flt. Engr. Service No: 3000076.
Date of Death: 23/06/1944. Age: 19.
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 76 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: Grave 3. Cemetery: MONTCHALONS CHURCHYARD
Additional Information: Son of William Charles and Elsie Mary Royal, of Stratfield, Reading, Berkshire.
From your information that probably explains his exalted rank for a teenager plus his presence on a prestige Squadron. From his early number he was in possibly the first batch of ATC entrants. That presumably places the 3,000,000 series as starting in mid-late 43 given the length of time for training to posting to an Operational Squadron.
If your 3,000,000 series number is close to the start, then that means you were also an "early bird".
Perhaps you have your own memories and reminiscences to regal us with?
Please feel free to join in when you feel ready, like Bugs Bunny, we're all ears!
EDIT: In the 3,000,000 to 3,999,999 series there are 466 CWGC fatalities.
These seem to be the earliest, if that helps in any way
BUCKLEY, SAMUEL. Rank: Leading Aircraftman. Trade: Air Gnr. Service No: 3010883.
Date of Death: 16/11/1943. Age: 17. Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve.
Grave Reference: Sec. N. Grave 496. Cemetery: ASHTON-UNDER-LYNE (HURST) CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Samuel and Lilian Buckley, of Ashton-under-Lyne.
ADAMS, KENNETH PATERSON. Rank: Aircraftman 2nd Class. Service No: 3011286.
Date of Death: 16/01/1944. Age: 18. Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve.
Grave Reference: Sec. 6. Grave 26. Cemetery: JARROW CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of William B.J. Adams and Esther Adams, of Jarrow.
The vast majority are post WW2 but I haven't gone through them to see if any were lost On Active Service over Germany etc, but many were allocated to Squadrons, so there is a chance that some did fall on Operations.
A very quick check reveals at least one
ROYAL, ROBERT ERIC. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Flt. Engr. Service No: 3000076.
Date of Death: 23/06/1944. Age: 19.
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 76 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: Grave 3. Cemetery: MONTCHALONS CHURCHYARD
Additional Information: Son of William Charles and Elsie Mary Royal, of Stratfield, Reading, Berkshire.
From your information that probably explains his exalted rank for a teenager plus his presence on a prestige Squadron. From his early number he was in possibly the first batch of ATC entrants. That presumably places the 3,000,000 series as starting in mid-late 43 given the length of time for training to posting to an Operational Squadron.
If your 3,000,000 series number is close to the start, then that means you were also an "early bird".
Perhaps you have your own memories and reminiscences to regal us with?
Please feel free to join in when you feel ready, like Bugs Bunny, we're all ears!
EDIT: In the 3,000,000 to 3,999,999 series there are 466 CWGC fatalities.
These seem to be the earliest, if that helps in any way
BUCKLEY, SAMUEL. Rank: Leading Aircraftman. Trade: Air Gnr. Service No: 3010883.
Date of Death: 16/11/1943. Age: 17. Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve.
Grave Reference: Sec. N. Grave 496. Cemetery: ASHTON-UNDER-LYNE (HURST) CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Samuel and Lilian Buckley, of Ashton-under-Lyne.
ADAMS, KENNETH PATERSON. Rank: Aircraftman 2nd Class. Service No: 3011286.
Date of Death: 16/01/1944. Age: 18. Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve.
Grave Reference: Sec. 6. Grave 26. Cemetery: JARROW CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of William B.J. Adams and Esther Adams, of Jarrow.
The vast majority are post WW2 but I haven't gone through them to see if any were lost On Active Service over Germany etc, but many were allocated to Squadrons, so there is a chance that some did fall on Operations.
Last edited by Icare9; 8th Jun 2014 at 21:23.
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Gaining An R.A.F. Pilots Brevet inWW11
Addenda. In 1943 and 1944 all our aircraft at Terrell were silver.
After leave it was back to Harrogate and then to Whitley Bay for a month with the R.A.F. Regiment at the NCOs School where we had lectures, drill and regiment training. There were a lot of pilots waiting for further training and some were sent on the railway as firemen. Not a happy prospect and some trains apparently ran out of steam as the coal was not shovelled quickly enough|
Back to Harrogate and to Elmdon, now Birmingham Airport, for a month flying Tiger Moths to get used to mapreading and English weather. Very enjoyable and managed 45 hours in the four weeks of which only twelve days were flyable.
During this time, September 1944, Monty's Arnhem Battle went disasterously wrong. He lost so many glider pilots that the Glider Pilot Regiment was non-operational.
Brigadier George Chatterton, who was the C.O. of the Regiment had been a pilot in the R.A.F. and had friends in high places. He asked for pilots, such as we, awaiting further training, to be seconded to his Regiment. Volunteers were called for at Harrogate, but we wanted Spitfires of Mustangs and not many volunteered. We were paraded and told in no uncertain manner, that, if we did not volunteer we would never fly again. So we became voluntary conscripts. 500 to India and 500 to stay in U.K.
Off to Bridgnorth for two weeks with the R.A.F. Regiment, shooting, digging trenches etc., and then on to Brize Norton to fly Horsas and Hadrians for two weeks,towed by Whitleys. We were drilled by RSM Briodie, Irish Guards, also a glider pilot. Another two weeks at Hampstead Norris, towed by Albermarles and this time with Army Glider instructors and after that our postings to Horsa or Hamilcar Squadrons.
After leave it was back to Harrogate and then to Whitley Bay for a month with the R.A.F. Regiment at the NCOs School where we had lectures, drill and regiment training. There were a lot of pilots waiting for further training and some were sent on the railway as firemen. Not a happy prospect and some trains apparently ran out of steam as the coal was not shovelled quickly enough|
Back to Harrogate and to Elmdon, now Birmingham Airport, for a month flying Tiger Moths to get used to mapreading and English weather. Very enjoyable and managed 45 hours in the four weeks of which only twelve days were flyable.
During this time, September 1944, Monty's Arnhem Battle went disasterously wrong. He lost so many glider pilots that the Glider Pilot Regiment was non-operational.
Brigadier George Chatterton, who was the C.O. of the Regiment had been a pilot in the R.A.F. and had friends in high places. He asked for pilots, such as we, awaiting further training, to be seconded to his Regiment. Volunteers were called for at Harrogate, but we wanted Spitfires of Mustangs and not many volunteered. We were paraded and told in no uncertain manner, that, if we did not volunteer we would never fly again. So we became voluntary conscripts. 500 to India and 500 to stay in U.K.
Off to Bridgnorth for two weeks with the R.A.F. Regiment, shooting, digging trenches etc., and then on to Brize Norton to fly Horsas and Hadrians for two weeks,towed by Whitleys. We were drilled by RSM Briodie, Irish Guards, also a glider pilot. Another two weeks at Hampstead Norris, towed by Albermarles and this time with Army Glider instructors and after that our postings to Horsa or Hamilcar Squadrons.
Interesting homecoming Ormeside! What explanation (or perhaps none?) were you given for the double helping of RAF Regiment, particularly in the first instance? Was the insatiable demand of Bomber Command for pilots now a thing of the past? After D-Day was the emphasis on tactical air power, and therefore the strong possibility of being in the battle area rather than merely being above it? Were you happy to be drilled and lectured on the 'tool entrenching for the use of', or were there mutterings? Horses for course perhaps, though harrym and hummingfrog snr might well have preferred the firing of mainline locos instead. 
However, once the die was cast and you had all 'volunteered' for Army secondment and the GPR, such skills became matters of potential life and death of course. Could you please give some details of the training, both at BN and Hampstead Norris?
Was the BN course more a case of circuit work, ie learning your key points for height and speed cross wind, downwind, base leg, and approach for a chosen landing spot, and the second perhaps more realistic towed cross countries to calculated cast off points for tactical exercises with troops and payloads? Only a guess of course, so please correct and inform. How much was night work? What sort of penetration ratio did these aircraft have? One imagines something similar to a house brick, but presumably some were better than others. Were you current/checked out on all types, some, or just one?
Lots more questions no doubt, but I'll leave them for others. Suffice to say, it is a little known and discussed part of WW2 aviation, and so of great interest to this thread I'd suggest.
However, once the die was cast and you had all 'volunteered' for Army secondment and the GPR, such skills became matters of potential life and death of course. Could you please give some details of the training, both at BN and Hampstead Norris?
Was the BN course more a case of circuit work, ie learning your key points for height and speed cross wind, downwind, base leg, and approach for a chosen landing spot, and the second perhaps more realistic towed cross countries to calculated cast off points for tactical exercises with troops and payloads? Only a guess of course, so please correct and inform. How much was night work? What sort of penetration ratio did these aircraft have? One imagines something similar to a house brick, but presumably some were better than others. Were you current/checked out on all types, some, or just one?
Lots more questions no doubt, but I'll leave them for others. Suffice to say, it is a little known and discussed part of WW2 aviation, and so of great interest to this thread I'd suggest.
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Gaining an RAF pilots brevet in WW2
Icare9
Thank you for all the information and NO my DFC initials only indicate that I was christened Denis Frederick Campbell!
I have exhausted my service history earlier on Gaining an RAF etc ` From the service numbers of the other 22 on my EUAS course---all or almost all ex ATC---I concluded that each recruiting center was given a batch of numbers in the 3 million series so that a lower number did not necessarily mean earlier enlistment.
Your investigation confirms that because of the length of and at that time, delays, in training for P and N categories it was more likely that AG, s and perhaps FE, s would be in action before the end of the war.
Thank you for all the information and NO my DFC initials only indicate that I was christened Denis Frederick Campbell!
I have exhausted my service history earlier on Gaining an RAF etc ` From the service numbers of the other 22 on my EUAS course---all or almost all ex ATC---I concluded that each recruiting center was given a batch of numbers in the 3 million series so that a lower number did not necessarily mean earlier enlistment.
Your investigation confirms that because of the length of and at that time, delays, in training for P and N categories it was more likely that AG, s and perhaps FE, s would be in action before the end of the war.
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Icare9 re your post 5770 15 Squadron was RAF Bourn Cambs and if you go to Home - RAFBournmemorial and go to squadron losses you will see all 15 squadron losses whilst at Bourn ( without an e which is in Lincs )
Also a memorial plaque is being laid on August 24th which I will attend as my father was there in 15 squadron late 42/early 43
I see from reading Oxford's Own ( History of 15/XV Squadron ) that the Pilot Sgt John Gurr had applied for a commission which was granted three weeks after his death so he was buried with the rank of Pilot Officer.I was until I read that going to say my father would probably have come across him in the Officers Mess but clearly that was not the case.
Also a memorial plaque is being laid on August 24th which I will attend as my father was there in 15 squadron late 42/early 43
I see from reading Oxford's Own ( History of 15/XV Squadron ) that the Pilot Sgt John Gurr had applied for a commission which was granted three weeks after his death so he was buried with the rank of Pilot Officer.I was until I read that going to say my father would probably have come across him in the Officers Mess but clearly that was not the case.
Last edited by thegypsy; 9th Jun 2014 at 15:52.
Ormeside, please may I join Chugalug in asking for details of the glider pilot's course? Having the basics from the Tiger Moth, did you start with dual instruction on tow? What were the basics of the Horsa handling?
As a little lad at Binbrook I still remember the Horsa delivered by Dakota to land as part of the Battle of Britain display in September 1949. I have the most vivid memory of its snail-slow descent, and realising even at eight years old that any missile whatever would penetrate its flimsy plywood fuselage.
Much later I enjoyed many glider launches as both tug and glider pilot, and often thought of the Horsa crews who never knew when the tow might be dropped and had brief moments to pick a landing site, ample time to collect lumps of flying metal. The bravery and skill of the glider pilots is not always appreciated.
As a little lad at Binbrook I still remember the Horsa delivered by Dakota to land as part of the Battle of Britain display in September 1949. I have the most vivid memory of its snail-slow descent, and realising even at eight years old that any missile whatever would penetrate its flimsy plywood fuselage.
Much later I enjoyed many glider launches as both tug and glider pilot, and often thought of the Horsa crews who never knew when the tow might be dropped and had brief moments to pick a landing site, ample time to collect lumps of flying metal. The bravery and skill of the glider pilots is not always appreciated.