Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II
I agree with you Danny. Those who pick a new hobby or join a social gathering where they have to DO something last a lot longer than the couch potatoes.
Personally I use the computer to keep abreast, and therefore an interest, in the world around me. There is a vicious solo game called Mah Jong I play to test my eye/hand coodination to the extreme.
Having said that I will probably croak tomorrow.
Personally I use the computer to keep abreast, and therefore an interest, in the world around me. There is a vicious solo game called Mah Jong I play to test my eye/hand coodination to the extreme.
Having said that I will probably croak tomorrow.
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Originally Posted by Danny42C
(Unworthy Jest): "Those who can, Do....those who can't, Instruct....those who can neither Do nor Instruct go on the Examining Board". (Sorry, MPN11 !)
Endorsed LEO at Eastern Radar, Waddington and Stanley, though. Does that constitute a blot on my record?
(Just returned from holiday, and much enjoyed catching up with some great posts and links)
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Fareastdriver,
Nay, lad ! While it is true that: "you know not the day nor the hour", from your writings you must be at least a generation behind me, and so good for a long time yet !
I remember Mah Jong (wasn't it all about building a wall or something ?), but it looks so fearfully complicated that I shied away from it at first glance. Now Chess (schoolboy level) is/was more in my line .....D.
Smudge,
I have to admit defeat this time ! I gather that you're going to get annoyed with something (jail ? - surely not ! - that your friends are involved - and that somebody enjoys (amet) all writings (I'm off the beam, aren't I ?)
"Amo, amas, a mattress" (Graffiti seen on London Tube years ago)....D.
ricardian,
Not in RAF(G) in the early '60s (it would have been all beech, and your link says it was teak). Mid-'60s, don't remember anything like it in MQs (those legs !)......D.
MPN11,
Missed the LEOs didn't I ? Never mind, I suppose they could be classed as Do-ers (Record Unblotted !) In any case, anyone who's done even one tour as a battery hen in Area Radar is entitled to our sympathy - much may be forgiven him ! - (Sour grapes, of course - I was never a LEO - too kind hearted ?)
The Falklands must have been interesting. With the nearest land about three hundred miles away (and no airways or Controlled Airspace - other than yourself ?), Horizontal Separation can hardly have been a problem. (Penguin strikes ?)
There has to be a story here. Let's hear it, please...D.
Regards to all, Danny.
Nay, lad ! While it is true that: "you know not the day nor the hour", from your writings you must be at least a generation behind me, and so good for a long time yet !
I remember Mah Jong (wasn't it all about building a wall or something ?), but it looks so fearfully complicated that I shied away from it at first glance. Now Chess (schoolboy level) is/was more in my line .....D.
Smudge,
I have to admit defeat this time ! I gather that you're going to get annoyed with something (jail ? - surely not ! - that your friends are involved - and that somebody enjoys (amet) all writings (I'm off the beam, aren't I ?)
"Amo, amas, a mattress" (Graffiti seen on London Tube years ago)....D.
ricardian,
Not in RAF(G) in the early '60s (it would have been all beech, and your link says it was teak). Mid-'60s, don't remember anything like it in MQs (those legs !)......D.
MPN11,
Missed the LEOs didn't I ? Never mind, I suppose they could be classed as Do-ers (Record Unblotted !) In any case, anyone who's done even one tour as a battery hen in Area Radar is entitled to our sympathy - much may be forgiven him ! - (Sour grapes, of course - I was never a LEO - too kind hearted ?)
The Falklands must have been interesting. With the nearest land about three hundred miles away (and no airways or Controlled Airspace - other than yourself ?), Horizontal Separation can hardly have been a problem. (Penguin strikes ?)
There has to be a story here. Let's hear it, please...D.
Regards to all, Danny.
Danny,
Apologies, my misinterpretation of your previous post. I do suspect that at a mere 60 years old, my ability to remember the limited languages I used to enjoy learning are suffering badly. Perhaps an early "senior moment"? I'll stick to English in future, at least then I think I know what I mean to say.
My basic suggestion was that there's plenty more of your story to come, hopefully, and we will not be happy until we've had the lot from you Sir ! (Now I'm for it, Jankers at least). Standing by for the next post, or orders to report 
Smudge
Apologies, my misinterpretation of your previous post. I do suspect that at a mere 60 years old, my ability to remember the limited languages I used to enjoy learning are suffering badly. Perhaps an early "senior moment"? I'll stick to English in future, at least then I think I know what I mean to say.
My basic suggestion was that there's plenty more of your story to come, hopefully, and we will not be happy until we've had the lot from you Sir ! (Now I'm for it, Jankers at least). Standing by for the next post, or orders to report Smudge
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Smudge,
Now I'm at sea ! Recap:
"amici mei sufflabo in custodiam, scripta sunt omnia amet" (your #5050).
Construe, please, Smudge.
THEN: Enuff of Zees Nonsense (yes I know I started it !). English TFN !
Next Post on stocks.
Danny.
Now I'm at sea ! Recap:
"amici mei sufflabo in custodiam, scripta sunt omnia amet" (your #5050).
Construe, please, Smudge.
THEN: Enuff of Zees Nonsense (yes I know I started it !). English TFN !
Next Post on stocks.
Danny.
Last edited by Danny42C; 30th Jan 2014 at 11:51. Reason: Stupid Spelling Mistake (well, I 'm getting on a bit)
Danny42C
I heartily agree. Married as I am to a lass from Vorarlberg, driving in the snow was drummed into me from my first visit to Austria in the winter. Mind you forty-odd years ago things were comparatively primitive, but basic sense drummed into me by the locals was worth it's weight in gold and I can honestly say I've never been caught out by being unprepared when going over various Austrian, Swiss and Italian passes in the winter months.
Here's a shot of my BFG registered Volvo going over the Hochtannberg pass in Austria. A quiet and isolated pass with sparse traffic as seen here. If one broke down just wait (hope) for a car/lorry to come along to help. No mobile phones in those days!
As a PS I enlarged the photo to see what the diamond-shaped object was part the way up the hill to the right. Appears very much like a memorial (denkmal) that the Austrians are prone to erect in memory to someone who's came a cropper in a road accident, so in icy conditions treat this corner with respect!
Meanwhile if travelling over the Brenner Pass in Italy one is prompted by signs telling you what to do.
Whilst in Germany road signs inform you that snow chains are necessary, and being German the police will fine you if you're not wearing them after passing this sign.
Is it worth telling all how I purchased this Volvo duty-free etc. whilst based at JHQ Rheindahlen - or would this be too much thread creep?
Anyone intending to use chains needs to practise putting them on first - in the warm and dry!
Here's a shot of my BFG registered Volvo going over the Hochtannberg pass in Austria. A quiet and isolated pass with sparse traffic as seen here. If one broke down just wait (hope) for a car/lorry to come along to help. No mobile phones in those days!
As a PS I enlarged the photo to see what the diamond-shaped object was part the way up the hill to the right. Appears very much like a memorial (denkmal) that the Austrians are prone to erect in memory to someone who's came a cropper in a road accident, so in icy conditions treat this corner with respect!
Meanwhile if travelling over the Brenner Pass in Italy one is prompted by signs telling you what to do.
Whilst in Germany road signs inform you that snow chains are necessary, and being German the police will fine you if you're not wearing them after passing this sign.
Is it worth telling all how I purchased this Volvo duty-free etc. whilst based at JHQ Rheindahlen - or would this be too much thread creep?
Last edited by Warmtoast; 30th Jan 2014 at 16:13. Reason: Add PS re memorial
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Warmtoast,
Don't see why anyone would object (can't speak for the Mods, of course). But if you have some good "gen" which may be useful to others on this Thread, why not ?
Long time ago, when currency restrictions were much tighter than now, I think you had to do the deal in UK and in sterling, but I suppose it's all different today. Did you still have the two-year rule (car has to stay out of UK for two years before you can bring it in tax (VAT ?) free ?
Lovely pics: very nostalgic. Note how clear the roads were kept - in contrast to ours ! The rest of Europe watches on in amusement as Britain slides into chaos when a few inches of snow come down. It does not seem to occur to us that, as snow has fallen most winters from time immemorial, there is a high probability that it'll happen again this year. So we take no sensible precautions and are caught out every time.
However, this is starting to change. The sales of monstrous 4x4 "Chelsea Tractors" are booming, and those unwilling or unable to re-mortgage the family home to buy one, must content themselves with a set of snow tyres. As these really need a spare set of wheels to go with them, that isn't a cheap option either.
Danny.
PS: As Mrs W. is a native of the region, she may cast a critical eye on my memories of Gargellen (always remembering that they are 53 years old now !)...D.
Don't see why anyone would object (can't speak for the Mods, of course). But if you have some good "gen" which may be useful to others on this Thread, why not ?
Long time ago, when currency restrictions were much tighter than now, I think you had to do the deal in UK and in sterling, but I suppose it's all different today. Did you still have the two-year rule (car has to stay out of UK for two years before you can bring it in tax (VAT ?) free ?
Lovely pics: very nostalgic. Note how clear the roads were kept - in contrast to ours ! The rest of Europe watches on in amusement as Britain slides into chaos when a few inches of snow come down. It does not seem to occur to us that, as snow has fallen most winters from time immemorial, there is a high probability that it'll happen again this year. So we take no sensible precautions and are caught out every time.
However, this is starting to change. The sales of monstrous 4x4 "Chelsea Tractors" are booming, and those unwilling or unable to re-mortgage the family home to buy one, must content themselves with a set of snow tyres. As these really need a spare set of wheels to go with them, that isn't a cheap option either.
Danny.
PS: As Mrs W. is a native of the region, she may cast a critical eye on my memories of Gargellen (always remembering that they are 53 years old now !)...D.
Last edited by Danny42C; 30th Jan 2014 at 23:59. Reason: Afterthought.
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Originally Posted by Danny42C
Missed the LEOs didn't I ? Never mind, I suppose they could be classed as Do-ers (Record Unblotted !) In any case, anyone who's done even one tour as a battery hen in Area Radar is entitled to our sympathy - much may be forgiven him ! - (Sour grapes, of course - I was never a LEO - too kind hearted ?)
....
There has to be a story here. Let's hear it, please...D.
....
There has to be a story here. Let's hear it, please...D.
The novice, having learned the basics at CATCS, now has to implement whatever is in the Station Flying Order Book and ATC Order Book. Local variations inevitably are legion - you are there to look after the aircraft of that Unit, in the way they (and higher formations, such as Gp and Cmd) require. So you do your time in whatever position it is, until someone says “He’ll do”. At this point steps in the LEO. Usually the LEO will be the SATCO, but a bigger Units there may be a 2nd LEO … and they are both examined and endorsed as such by the ATC Examining Board, after rigorous theoretical and practical examinations in all control positions.
Local Training Team. We didn’t really have those when I started - just whoever was on watch in that position on that day. Some were brilliant teachers, others were a PITA. Being whacked with a Nav Ruler wasn’t training, Pete!! But the majority were good old WW2 guys, trying to feed us into being both officers and ATCOs. These days it’s far more efficient and better managed, and usually only selected ATCOs conduct OJT with new arrivals.
Theory. Just like aircrew, we can’t carry the piles of documents with us to the operating position. The average ATC pile is about 2-3 ft high, and most of it requires instant recall when you’re on the job. The Practical Knowledge (PK) Exam from the ATCEEB or the LEO is scary … some is total recall (FOB etc) or ‘deep knowledge’ where you need to be able to go straight to the right AP or FLIP and open the right page without hesitation to produce the right answer (having checked for FLIP Amendments, of course).
Practical. Do it by the book, maintaining prescribed separation efficiently and without pi$$ing people around. “Safe, Orderly and Expeditious flow of Air Traffic”. If you can’t do that, you need more OJT … or a career in the RAF Regt, or Fighter Control, or Admin (Sec)
So … the LEO is the person who signs off as competent every controller at that Unit, for every operating position after both practical and theory examinations, with the written authority of the ATCEEB by virtue of the endorsement as LEO his F5994. And every Endorsement in your F5994 expires on posting, and at the next Unit the whole process starts over again!
(I see that on 21 Apr 83 I was endorsed for RA (Radar Approach) on the new AR15 radar by my 2nd LEO at Waddington - I wonder who had endorsed him on the new kit?? Must have been an ATCEEB special visit.)
Danny: fear not Mrs. W, my memories of 53 yrs ago paint places in a rosier glow than they have today!
Chelsea tractors: many or most cannot use their capabilities, and when one loses two tons of tractor it takes considerable room to get it back, as I discovered in 14 years' LWB Land-Rover operations. And few realise that their massive go-anywhere 4wd has only as much traction as the 2wd saloons stuck in line up the hill ahead.
I flew from a light snow layer one day. Taxi and turning was no problem, but when angled across the taxiway to run up the park brake had no effect whatever and I throttled back PDQ. When I tried to push the brute into the hangar I fell flat on my face. Serves me right for not following the national line and Staying Inside in Snow.
Chelsea tractors: many or most cannot use their capabilities, and when one loses two tons of tractor it takes considerable room to get it back, as I discovered in 14 years' LWB Land-Rover operations. And few realise that their massive go-anywhere 4wd has only as much traction as the 2wd saloons stuck in line up the hill ahead.
I flew from a light snow layer one day. Taxi and turning was no problem, but when angled across the taxiway to run up the park brake had no effect whatever and I throttled back PDQ. When I tried to push the brute into the hangar I fell flat on my face. Serves me right for not following the national line and Staying Inside in Snow.
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Originally Posted by clicker
Good training there, sign you off on a piece of kit (AR15) and then post you off so far away so you can't use it.
Re all this talk of Air Traffic Control. I was never an ATCO, but filled in my early days at RAF Thornhill (5FTS), S. Rhodesia as an Air Traffic Control Assistant, probably the lowest for of life in the control tower apart from the tea lady. Anyway here's what I looked like in 1951 as I manned the fiendishly complicated ATC in the absence of an ATCO.
The board was designed locally to try and keep tabs on the various aircraft as they started, taxied, took-off and either did circuits and bumps of left the local area and vice-versa as they returned - it never did with any degree of success what it was designed to do, but as Thornhill had 27 Chipmunks, 60 Harvards and a variety of Ansons on strength it was not surprising!
...and the Thornhill ATC.
The board was designed locally to try and keep tabs on the various aircraft as they started, taxied, took-off and either did circuits and bumps of left the local area and vice-versa as they returned - it never did with any degree of success what it was designed to do, but as Thornhill had 27 Chipmunks, 60 Harvards and a variety of Ansons on strength it was not surprising!
...and the Thornhill ATC.
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VERY nice, warmtoast
Memories of the Akeroyd Board (invented by [subsequently] Gp Capt Stubby Akeroyd) where the Local controller moved those devilishly sharp map pins, with c/s on them, around the pin-board with the diagram of the circuit pattern ... which was then repeated in lights on a circuit diagram in the darkened Approach room.
Having stabbed myself endlessly with those bloody (literally) pins in Local, I confess I hardly ever bothered to look up at the Approach repeater display. GCA had priority anyway, and the circuit state was given when they overshot/rolled and went to Local. It must have had some use, at some locations, but it eluded me!
Memories of the Akeroyd Board (invented by [subsequently] Gp Capt Stubby Akeroyd) where the Local controller moved those devilishly sharp map pins, with c/s on them, around the pin-board with the diagram of the circuit pattern ... which was then repeated in lights on a circuit diagram in the darkened Approach room.
Having stabbed myself endlessly with those bloody (literally) pins in Local, I confess I hardly ever bothered to look up at the Approach repeater display. GCA had priority anyway, and the circuit state was given when they overshot/rolled and went to Local. It must have had some use, at some locations, but it eluded me!
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MPN11,
I quote your: "(I see that on 21 Apr 83 I was endorsed for RA (Radar Approach) on the new AR15 radar by my 2nd LEO at Waddington - I wonder who had endorsed him on the new kit?? Must have been an ATCEEB special visit.)"
A case of "Quis custodiet custodes ipsos ?" - or, "which came first, the chicken or the egg ?"
Seriously, delighted to have you on board ! Another contributor is always as welcome here as flowers in Spring; gives us all something new to "get our teeth into". For a start, it's been fascinating for me to read how far later ATC training policies had developed from the rude practices of my day. Makes me wonder how we ever managed at all !
I can relate to your opening remarks about Shawbury in the '60s. In my years there, I came to three distinct conclusions about what the place was for . First, I adopted the Received Wisdom that it turned out Air Traffic Controllers. After a while it became clear that that was complete nonsense. What it did was to turn out the skeletons of ATCs, who later would be clothed by the flesh of experience. At the end, the truth dawned: it was no more than a giant Aptitude Test. If you could hack it there, you could learn to be an ATC on your Station (and vice versa !)
Now I leave the field to others, and await your "Funny Things which Happened to Me on the Way to the Theatre" (aka Early Flying Days in the True Blue, stude at Shawbury, and all points up the Greasy Pole).
All the best, Danny.
BTW - has anyone else noticed the enormous jumps in the "Views" totals on this Thread over the past week or so ? (we must be doing something right)...D.
I quote your: "(I see that on 21 Apr 83 I was endorsed for RA (Radar Approach) on the new AR15 radar by my 2nd LEO at Waddington - I wonder who had endorsed him on the new kit?? Must have been an ATCEEB special visit.)"
A case of "Quis custodiet custodes ipsos ?" - or, "which came first, the chicken or the egg ?"
Seriously, delighted to have you on board ! Another contributor is always as welcome here as flowers in Spring; gives us all something new to "get our teeth into". For a start, it's been fascinating for me to read how far later ATC training policies had developed from the rude practices of my day. Makes me wonder how we ever managed at all !
I can relate to your opening remarks about Shawbury in the '60s. In my years there, I came to three distinct conclusions about what the place was for . First, I adopted the Received Wisdom that it turned out Air Traffic Controllers. After a while it became clear that that was complete nonsense. What it did was to turn out the skeletons of ATCs, who later would be clothed by the flesh of experience. At the end, the truth dawned: it was no more than a giant Aptitude Test. If you could hack it there, you could learn to be an ATC on your Station (and vice versa !)
Now I leave the field to others, and await your "Funny Things which Happened to Me on the Way to the Theatre" (aka Early Flying Days in the True Blue, stude at Shawbury, and all points up the Greasy Pole).
All the best, Danny.
BTW - has anyone else noticed the enormous jumps in the "Views" totals on this Thread over the past week or so ? (we must be doing something right)...D.
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Originally Posted by Danny42C
I can relate to your opening remarks about Shawbury in the '60s. In my years there, I came to three distinct conclusions about what the place was for . First, I adopted the Received Wisdom that it turned out Air Traffic Controllers. After a while it became clear that that was complete nonsense. What it did was to turn out the skeletons of ATCs, who later would be clothed by the flesh of experience. At the end, the truth dawned: it was no more than a giant Aptitude Test. If you could hack it there, you could learn to be an ATC on your Station (and vice versa !)
You guys at CATCS and similar establishments, as you said, built the skeleton ... the Units put the flesh on the bones, and experience adds the muscle.
But ... no selection process is perfect. 'Aptitude Test' is a fair comment ... how do you test aptitude for 4-dimensional chess? I have always held the view that ATCOs are born, not made. You either have that sort of weird mental wiring, or you don't - just like aircrew, actually. Its an Art Form - you have it, or you don't, and no amount of teaching will generate it.
And there's one dimension I'll chuck into the room as well ... an upper age limit for ATC trainees, which was 35 when I left. After that age, apart from slower learning, one significant factor was "fear of getting it wrong". The young ones don't think about it at all. The older ones are more conscious of screwing it up, and killing someone remotely from their air-conditioned cavern.
I handled a few like that on Units - a very interesting SATCO/LEO challenge. I had one flt lt who switched from Admin (Sec) to ATC in her 30s. First job was obviously make her O i/c coffee swindle, which highlighted that we had been doing things wrong! And then she got into her OJT programme. Nervous, perfectly capable from my and the Training Team's POV ... but it was hard to convince her she was actually rather good. She made her way through the control positions, on my signature in her F5994. And then ... decision time.
I had a bunch of inherited old (50+) flt lts who were endorsed as Supervisors. Half of them were just seeing out their time to pension, and CBA. So ... "Ahem, *** as of next Monday, you're training for Supervisor"
She screeched!!
"Sorry, in case you haven't noticed, I run this sqn. You start Sup training on Monday" There then followed a long chat.
A couple of weeks later, with positive reports from OC Trg Flt and everyone else, I endorsed her as Sup(T) ... within 18 months of leaving CATCS, with loads of talent, and a bloody fine officer to boot. I was brave, she was good, and we both took a dive into the deep water together. She was superb. You can either do it, or you can't. She could, excellently! Hope you read this, Liz xxx
