Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II
Your post also highlights something of a service that no longer seems to exist
Fortunately there wasn't such a terrorist threat back then.
Danny
Not an engine fitter or mechanic, except when attached to the pointed end of my own car, but 3,000 rpm was what I was told by a sadly now departed ex-R.A.F. engine fitter some years ago, he thought possibly slightly more in emergencies.
It would seem the Reno racers have left the standard Merlin far behind. A quick Google suggests 3,600 rpm and more, astronomical boost pressures and power outputs approaching 4,000 hp.
Not an engine fitter or mechanic, except when attached to the pointed end of my own car, but 3,000 rpm was what I was told by a sadly now departed ex-R.A.F. engine fitter some years ago, he thought possibly slightly more in emergencies.
It would seem the Reno racers have left the standard Merlin far behind. A quick Google suggests 3,600 rpm and more, astronomical boost pressures and power outputs approaching 4,000 hp.
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Hastings in Unusual Position.
Chugalug,
Cat 5 - that seems rather hard ! It doesn't sound right to scrap an aircraft when a 4-engine change and a new wheel were all that was needed to get it back in the air.
Surely the RAF were awash with low-hours Hercules from the old Halifax fleets (just as they had more Merlins than they knew what to do with it, hence - so the story ran - the advent of the Athena and Balliol).
Just so I understand it, 491 would hold this pose even if the nose were free (but if the tail were lowered - or blew down - just a bit, it would go over TDC and flop down ? Have I got it right ?
I assume you were a non-smoker at the time - otherwise you'd have exercised your power of command over your second dickey, thanked him for the cigs, and let him have a packet for being a good boy and saving them for you !
Still wondering about that curious little crowd gazing so fixedly at the tail. What could they be looking at. And how about the "gaiters" at the nose ?
As for the retracting tailwheel, I'm not convinced. It could only save a minute amount of drag: I can't see it making any significant difference in speed or range. The Spitfire and Hurricane got along fine with a fixed wheel, when there was every effort being made to screw another knot out of them.
Conversely there was a retractable tailwheel in the Vengeance, which of all aircraft absolutely didn't need it - it was a useless, possible source of trouble.
Goodnight, Danny.
Cat 5 - that seems rather hard ! It doesn't sound right to scrap an aircraft when a 4-engine change and a new wheel were all that was needed to get it back in the air.
Surely the RAF were awash with low-hours Hercules from the old Halifax fleets (just as they had more Merlins than they knew what to do with it, hence - so the story ran - the advent of the Athena and Balliol).
Just so I understand it, 491 would hold this pose even if the nose were free (but if the tail were lowered - or blew down - just a bit, it would go over TDC and flop down ? Have I got it right ?
I assume you were a non-smoker at the time - otherwise you'd have exercised your power of command over your second dickey, thanked him for the cigs, and let him have a packet for being a good boy and saving them for you !
Still wondering about that curious little crowd gazing so fixedly at the tail. What could they be looking at. And how about the "gaiters" at the nose ?
As for the retracting tailwheel, I'm not convinced. It could only save a minute amount of drag: I can't see it making any significant difference in speed or range. The Spitfire and Hurricane got along fine with a fixed wheel, when there was every effort being made to screw another knot out of them.
Conversely there was a retractable tailwheel in the Vengeance, which of all aircraft absolutely didn't need it - it was a useless, possible source of trouble.
Goodnight, Danny.
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Merlins running at 3,000 rpm plus !
DHfan,
Yes, I suppose it is so. Then again the Merlin had to keep up the power for hours on end, whereas the ideal racing macine (car or aircraft) wins the race - and then collapses in a pile of scrap !
Danny'
Yes, I suppose it is so. Then again the Merlin had to keep up the power for hours on end, whereas the ideal racing macine (car or aircraft) wins the race - and then collapses in a pile of scrap !
Danny'
Ah yes 'ciggie' and Siggie, makes perfect sense. I had always assumed that it was the escape rope hanging down in the pic and as chugalug says it did not reach the ground. I think the chaps at the front of the a/c are the fire crew wearing their protective boots, or they may be the wreck and recovery team who were also issued with similar boots. Not RN ! I think from a previous post the a/c was empty so no shifting of cargo etc. Just the natural tendency of a taildragger to nose over at the slightest opportunity.
Chugalug's mention of the imminent arrival in service of the Herc was the reason many a Hastings was retired early. As I recall we were having autopilot and other problems as well.
Did my last Hastings trip on Dec. 22 1967 in 343 from Luqa via Abingdon to Colerne. Started the Herc course in the new year.
Chugalug's mention of the imminent arrival in service of the Herc was the reason many a Hastings was retired early. As I recall we were having autopilot and other problems as well.
Did my last Hastings trip on Dec. 22 1967 in 343 from Luqa via Abingdon to Colerne. Started the Herc course in the new year.
Sometime in the early/mid-1960s, a long time after the RN had returned to Yeovilton and even longer after the RAF had handed it over to the RN in the first place, the aerodrome was virtually abandoned. A handful of RAF personnel looked after the DF station, but that was all. Anyone and everyone could drive up and down the runways.
So it was rather surprising one day, long before the RN reactivated the place, to see a Hastings land. I remember cycling over to watch it subsequently depart from the westerly runway, but wonder to this day what it had been doing there.
Perhaps delivering the new, automatic DF installation - part of the D&D autotriangulation fixer system?
So it was rather surprising one day, long before the RN reactivated the place, to see a Hastings land. I remember cycling over to watch it subsequently depart from the westerly runway, but wonder to this day what it had been doing there.
Perhaps delivering the new, automatic DF installation - part of the D&D autotriangulation fixer system?
My father learnt to fly at 1 BFTS at Terrell Texas. They have a small museum dedicated to those interesting times:-
Home - No. 1 British Flying Training School Museum - Fly-In
Dad is still going strong at 92 and still recounts the day that he was flying on a cross country training flight where 3 a/c crashed on route - killing 6 cadets
Apparently poor weather had set in (unforecast) across the hills spanning the route to the airfield where the students were going to swap seats for the flight back to Terrell. Luckily for Dad the valley he ended up going down wasn't a dead end!
HF
Home - No. 1 British Flying Training School Museum - Fly-In
Dad is still going strong at 92 and still recounts the day that he was flying on a cross country training flight where 3 a/c crashed on route - killing 6 cadets
Apparently poor weather had set in (unforecast) across the hills spanning the route to the airfield where the students were going to swap seats for the flight back to Terrell. Luckily for Dad the valley he ended up going down wasn't a dead end!HF
Danny, yes she would have wanted to return to her natural pose, ie sitting on her tail, the mainwheels being slightly forward of the CofG. The airframe didn't come out of it totally unscathed as this picture shows:-
Surely the RAF were awash with low-hours Hercules from the old Halifax fleets
At the end of the war in Europe one of my fathers jobs was ferrying brand new Halifaxs from the factory to Edzell, in Scotland, which was a Stirling and Halifax disposal unit, to be scrapped. This experience was useful at a later date.
In 1947 he was posted to 202 (Met) Sqn, which with 224 in were the only two Halifax Squadrons left in the RAF. Spares, any spares, was a nightmare. To overcome this he would load a Halifax up with assorted fitters, fly to Dyce, near Aberdeen and take a day off whilst his fitters went down to Edzell and robbed all the hulks still lying about.
The Halifaxs were replaced by Hastings in 1951. A few trundled around in either civvy guise or in Sunny Air Forces for a year or so but apart from a few recovered wrecks there is nothing left.
Danny. That hat in the foreground is of the Royal Malayasian Air Force. When the course started we had; 4 Direct Entry Pilots, 2 remustering Engineering Officers, 1 remustering Sergeant Signaller, 1 retreading ex National Service pilot, 2 Lebanese Air Force, 2 Iraqi Air Force, 2 Jordanion Air Force, 4 RMAF and 'B' Flight consisted of the 13 Ghanian Air Force, their nation's entire strength.
Time took its toll and at the end when the photo was taken we were the survivors of 'A' Flight. 'B' flight returned to Ghana and years later when Nkrumah was overthrown the rumour went around that they were lined up on a beach and shot.
In those days with a large number of second world countries coming into existence and forming their own air forces the RAF had a nice little earner training their personnel.
Last edited by Fareastdriver; 15th Dec 2013 at 10:31.
Hummingfrog, perhaps your father could join Danny in keeping alive the "original" intent of this most glorious thread, and pass his experiences on to the many, who hang on the words of the few. I'm sure all would welcome a "new boy", especially one with such credentials. Perhaps you could help with posts etc ?, if necessary, most of these guys are more savvy than us "semi youngsters".
Smudge
Smudge
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Fareastdriver,
Ref your:
"In those days with a large number of second world countries coming into existence and forming their own air forces the RAF had a nice little earner training their personnel"
At Strubby sometime in '55 - '58, we were earning an honest penny in this way, but the A.M. had a mental aberration (not all that unusual in those days). They programmed two such AFS Courses to run concurrently - one Israeli and the other Iraki IIRC ! (may have been Syrian, but they'd be more likely to go to France, I suppose).
Even though no live firing was part of the Courses, we deemed the risk too great and put the stoppers on it .
D.
Ref your:
"In those days with a large number of second world countries coming into existence and forming their own air forces the RAF had a nice little earner training their personnel"
At Strubby sometime in '55 - '58, we were earning an honest penny in this way, but the A.M. had a mental aberration (not all that unusual in those days). They programmed two such AFS Courses to run concurrently - one Israeli and the other Iraki IIRC ! (may have been Syrian, but they'd be more likely to go to France, I suppose).
Even though no live firing was part of the Courses, we deemed the risk too great and put the stoppers on it .
D.
I seem to recall that when I was at Yatesbury on my fitter's course we had several nationalities under training. The Iranian uniforms were especially colourful. Most of this type of training of groundcrew and aircrew, ceased when they countries involved were asked to bear the full (MOD arithmetic !) costs, as there had been a degree of subsidy before. I always thought this to be short sighted as today's trainee could well be tomorrow's senior officer.
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Multicultural, nurses, oh and some training.
After our welcoming bull night, we band of merry men and boys settled into our home for nine months. RAF Halton is nestled on on one side of a hill-line and in the flat land below. The hill line is where the accommodation blocks were placed for the trainees, and on the flat land there was the technical training school and airfield. We wouldn't see the airfield until the final part of our course, but we saw a great deal of the 'school' which consisted of 'sheds' and classrooms. The sheds were where the practical aspects of our technical training was carried out. Thy first task IIRC was to start our snowballing collection of reference and reading material, including the most excellent book "The Jet Engine" which I seem to think was a Rolls Royce publication. The course brief was detailed enough for us to plan what to expect. Continual education and assessment. Failure (a dirty word nowadays but a normal part of life in the late '70's) was awaiting anyone who could not absorb and apply their newfound knowledge at each and every assessment. The assessments were mini-exams, but our attitude and aptitude was also continually reviewed.
The initial brief was founded around the fact that the aircraft of the Royal Air Force were the best maintained and operated in the world, bar none. This would continue to be the case, with or without us. If we failed in any way to come up to scratch, we were out. No ifs or buts. The integrity of the RAF's varied types of aircraft were not to be subjected to any input less than perfection. And to see if we could meet the standards required, we were to be subjected to the most rigorous aviation technical training environment in existence.
And we most certainly were.
But it wasn't just us on course APD21 (Aircraft Propulsion, Direct entry #21). There was a full complement of apprentices; trainee Flight Line Mechanics (FLM's); trainee Airframe, Engine and Armament mechanics. Then there were experienced mechanics who had returned to Halton to undergo Fitter training in order to progress from Senior Aircraftman to Junior Technican.
And then, as mentioned by a number of our crew room companions, there was the international aspect. There were men from just about every African country. Also, from the majority of the Arabic nations. Added to this list, there were Malaysians and sub-continental participants. Our parade ground every morning was a very multinational affair.
On one of our first mornings marching down the hill towards the sheds, one of the SAC's said to me "see that guy there in the PT shorts and Tee shirt? He flew a Lightning". Oh, says I naively, is he a pilot? "No, no, that is Wing Commander 'Taffy' Holden. He was the SENGO at Binbrook. They had a long-going snag with a Lightning, he climbed in to do the next ground run. They had the seat out and a box in its place, the canopy off, and wires running outside from the cockpit to the engine. He powered it up, ran over the chocks, pulled back to miss a truck, and flew it round for ten minutes trying to get it back down. He managed it in the end." I was chuckling, not going to get caught by this leg-pull, only to find out ten minutes later from a bunch of the SAC's who had been at Binbrook at the time that it was completely true. Awestruck admiration replaced disbelief.
The true whole story is freely available in Taffy's own words, and can be googled. There wasn't a box, but an inert seat. Just as useful, really.
At that time, Halton also had a hospital. This meant PMRAFNS nurses. Actually, lots of nurses. Bop nights in the NAAFI were always well attended.
I was really getting to like the RAF, and was now happily forgiving its earlier misdemeanour.
Camlobe
What goes up, keeps going up if it is a Lightning.
The initial brief was founded around the fact that the aircraft of the Royal Air Force were the best maintained and operated in the world, bar none. This would continue to be the case, with or without us. If we failed in any way to come up to scratch, we were out. No ifs or buts. The integrity of the RAF's varied types of aircraft were not to be subjected to any input less than perfection. And to see if we could meet the standards required, we were to be subjected to the most rigorous aviation technical training environment in existence.
And we most certainly were.
But it wasn't just us on course APD21 (Aircraft Propulsion, Direct entry #21). There was a full complement of apprentices; trainee Flight Line Mechanics (FLM's); trainee Airframe, Engine and Armament mechanics. Then there were experienced mechanics who had returned to Halton to undergo Fitter training in order to progress from Senior Aircraftman to Junior Technican.
And then, as mentioned by a number of our crew room companions, there was the international aspect. There were men from just about every African country. Also, from the majority of the Arabic nations. Added to this list, there were Malaysians and sub-continental participants. Our parade ground every morning was a very multinational affair.
On one of our first mornings marching down the hill towards the sheds, one of the SAC's said to me "see that guy there in the PT shorts and Tee shirt? He flew a Lightning". Oh, says I naively, is he a pilot? "No, no, that is Wing Commander 'Taffy' Holden. He was the SENGO at Binbrook. They had a long-going snag with a Lightning, he climbed in to do the next ground run. They had the seat out and a box in its place, the canopy off, and wires running outside from the cockpit to the engine. He powered it up, ran over the chocks, pulled back to miss a truck, and flew it round for ten minutes trying to get it back down. He managed it in the end." I was chuckling, not going to get caught by this leg-pull, only to find out ten minutes later from a bunch of the SAC's who had been at Binbrook at the time that it was completely true. Awestruck admiration replaced disbelief.
The true whole story is freely available in Taffy's own words, and can be googled. There wasn't a box, but an inert seat. Just as useful, really.
At that time, Halton also had a hospital. This meant PMRAFNS nurses. Actually, lots of nurses. Bop nights in the NAAFI were always well attended.
I was really getting to like the RAF, and was now happily forgiving its earlier misdemeanour.
Camlobe
What goes up, keeps going up if it is a Lightning.
Just so I understand it, 491 would hold this pose even if the nose were free (but if the tail were lowered - or blew down - just a bit, it would go over TDC and flop down ? Have I got it right ?
And that's why the chins of most TMs I encountered display faint scars or dents on the inside. Of course most are now highly restored with new cowlings as the old ones display fatigue cracking after 60+ yrs of vibration
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A Pilot "Malgre Lui".
Camlobe,
What a mountain you had to climb ! No wonder my groundcrew always knew so much more about the thing I was flying than I did myself !
The "Taffy" Holden story was a surprise. The story that went round the RAF some time in '62 -' 64 had it happening in Lyneham - indeed the tale of the "Lyneham Lightning" was legendary. Could there have been a second case at Binbrook ? (we have plenty of Lightning drivers on strength who can tell us).
They managed to keep the story out of the papers somehow. It arrived in the Instructors' Common Room in Shawbury on a Monday morning (having supposedly happened on the previous Saturday). We rang Lyneham ATC, but they were very cagey - we could get nothing out if them.
It did appear in the Press, but years later, when the trail had gone cold.
D.
What a mountain you had to climb ! No wonder my groundcrew always knew so much more about the thing I was flying than I did myself !
The "Taffy" Holden story was a surprise. The story that went round the RAF some time in '62 -' 64 had it happening in Lyneham - indeed the tale of the "Lyneham Lightning" was legendary. Could there have been a second case at Binbrook ? (we have plenty of Lightning drivers on strength who can tell us).
They managed to keep the story out of the papers somehow. It arrived in the Instructors' Common Room in Shawbury on a Monday morning (having supposedly happened on the previous Saturday). We rang Lyneham ATC, but they were very cagey - we could get nothing out if them.
It did appear in the Press, but years later, when the trail had gone cold.
D.
Camlobe/ Danny,
Taff Holden's flight in the lightning indeed happened at RAF Lyneham, I believe that it was the MU for the Lightning at that time. It's well covered in other threads on PPRUNE and should be easy enough to find. Despite rumours, the man was actually a trained aviator, and handled it as one would expect
Edit, here's some info I came across.
It happened on July 22nd 1966 while XM135 was at 33 MU at Lyneham. The aircraft had a persistant electrical problem that only showed itself under aceleration. So Wg Cdr Walter "Taff" Holden decided to undertake some ground tests to see if he could find the problem. The canopy was removed and the ground locks were in place Taff had a set of pilots notes with him in the cockpit he was strapped in but the safty pins were in. A couple of short bursts down the run way showed nothing so taff decided to give it a bit more speed. As he opened the throttels he accidentally pushed them through the gate into reheat. At first he thought the trottles had jammed but by the time he figured out what was happeneing he was out of runway and was left with only one choice to take XM135 for a quick spin round the airfield. This wouldnt be too much of a problem except that Taff had only done a few hours on a tiger moth. He couldnt call the tower as he only had on ear defenders and he couldnt eject as the seat was safe. After a couple of failed attempts after 12 minutes he landed.
Not too sure if he held an RAF pilots brevet! but I think he was OC eng on the unit at the time. I also believe that XM135 now resides at Duxford as an exhibit. Hope that helps.
Smudge
Taff Holden's flight in the lightning indeed happened at RAF Lyneham, I believe that it was the MU for the Lightning at that time. It's well covered in other threads on PPRUNE and should be easy enough to find. Despite rumours, the man was actually a trained aviator, and handled it as one would expect
Edit, here's some info I came across.
It happened on July 22nd 1966 while XM135 was at 33 MU at Lyneham. The aircraft had a persistant electrical problem that only showed itself under aceleration. So Wg Cdr Walter "Taff" Holden decided to undertake some ground tests to see if he could find the problem. The canopy was removed and the ground locks were in place Taff had a set of pilots notes with him in the cockpit he was strapped in but the safty pins were in. A couple of short bursts down the run way showed nothing so taff decided to give it a bit more speed. As he opened the throttels he accidentally pushed them through the gate into reheat. At first he thought the trottles had jammed but by the time he figured out what was happeneing he was out of runway and was left with only one choice to take XM135 for a quick spin round the airfield. This wouldnt be too much of a problem except that Taff had only done a few hours on a tiger moth. He couldnt call the tower as he only had on ear defenders and he couldnt eject as the seat was safe. After a couple of failed attempts after 12 minutes he landed.
Not too sure if he held an RAF pilots brevet! but I think he was OC eng on the unit at the time. I also believe that XM135 now resides at Duxford as an exhibit. Hope that helps.
Smudge
Last edited by smujsmith; 16th Dec 2013 at 21:09.