Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II
Santa Cruz is now Mumbai International. Juhu was the old airfield which some old hand forgot when he landed a four jet airliner on it.
They had to take all the seats out, drain it to minimum fuel so that it could just get airborne for Santa Cruz.
They had to take all the seats out, drain it to minimum fuel so that it could just get airborne for Santa Cruz.
Last edited by Fareastdriver; 20th Sep 2012 at 17:45.
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Juhu and Santa Cruz airfields.
Fareastdriver,
On 13 Dec '45, this old hand authorised himself to fly to "Santa Cruz" and on arrival clearly remembers skimming over the beach (mud flats, actually) and the sea wall onto the runway of what is now Juhu.
Explanation: the present Santa Cruz was not opened until 1948; prior to that the Bombay "airport" was Juhu, but it had commonly used the name of Santa Cruz. (Wiki: Juhu Aerodrome).
The Constellation old hand may well have flown into Juhu-Santa Cruz in earlier days, and got caught out that way.
Cheers,
Danny.
On 13 Dec '45, this old hand authorised himself to fly to "Santa Cruz" and on arrival clearly remembers skimming over the beach (mud flats, actually) and the sea wall onto the runway of what is now Juhu.
Explanation: the present Santa Cruz was not opened until 1948; prior to that the Bombay "airport" was Juhu, but it had commonly used the name of Santa Cruz. (Wiki: Juhu Aerodrome).
The Constellation old hand may well have flown into Juhu-Santa Cruz in earlier days, and got caught out that way.
Cheers,
Danny.
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Big Jets at Juhu
Danny,
Having had my interest piqued, I went looking.
http://oldphotosbombay.blog--spot.com/2010/12/bombay-airport-juhu-and-tata.html
Replace the stars with [frustratingly, Prune does not allow the word blog--spot (remove the dashes to get the forbidden word)]
(I know not why Prune forbids entering a link to a blog--spot address. Perhaps somebody can enlighten - is there a rule I'm not aware of?).
According to this site, there were three incidents of jet airliners landing at Juhu by mistake:
And please, keep talking (typing) - you have my full attention, sir.
TB
Having had my interest piqued, I went looking.
http://oldphotosbombay.blog--spot.com/2010/12/bombay-airport-juhu-and-tata.html
Replace the stars with [frustratingly, Prune does not allow the word blog--spot (remove the dashes to get the forbidden word)]
(I know not why Prune forbids entering a link to a blog--spot address. Perhaps somebody can enlighten - is there a rule I'm not aware of?).
According to this site, there were three incidents of jet airliners landing at Juhu by mistake:
- On 15 July 1953, a BOAC Cometlanded at Juhu Aerodrome instead of Mumbai's much largerSanta Cruz International Airport. The aircraft was flown out some nine days later.
- On 28 May 1968, the pilot of a Garuda Indonesia Convair 990 also mistook Juhu Aerodrome for Santacruz Airport and tried to land his aircraft. It overshot the runway falling just short of the traffic road ahead and several residential buildings when its nose wheel got stuck in a ditch at the end of the runway. All passengers survived.
- On 24 December 1972, Japan Airlines Flight 472, operated by Douglas DC-8-53also landed at Juhu Aerodrome instead of Santacruz Airport. The aircraft overran the end of the runway and was damaged beyond economic repair.
And please, keep talking (typing) - you have my full attention, sir.
TB
Last edited by Tabby Badger; 21st Sep 2012 at 18:25. Reason: Broken link (Forbidden word)
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Big Jets at juhu and Old Bombay photos
Tabby Badger,
Thanks for your support. The link is fascinating, particularly the early 19th century railway pictures. Some of the narrow-gauge hill lines are a remarkable witness to the skill and resource of the railway engineers of the period. I particularly liked the drawing of an inaugural steam loco (cold, I assume !) being hauled into service by a train of half a dozen elephants.
The aircraft pictures are nice, too. I can recommend the link to anyone with half an hour to spare. You'll enjoy it !
Goodnight,
Danny.
Thanks for your support. The link is fascinating, particularly the early 19th century railway pictures. Some of the narrow-gauge hill lines are a remarkable witness to the skill and resource of the railway engineers of the period. I particularly liked the drawing of an inaugural steam loco (cold, I assume !) being hauled into service by a train of half a dozen elephants.
The aircraft pictures are nice, too. I can recommend the link to anyone with half an hour to spare. You'll enjoy it !
Goodnight,
Danny.
Tabby Badger, I too enjoyed wandering through the pages of your blog-spot link. Thank you.
Danny, this picture of a cinema in Bombay reminds me of the one you told us of in Calcutta. Both boasted Air-Conditioning. A marvel then, I'm sure.
REGAL TALKIES, COLABA..
The Regal Cinema was built during the cinema boom of the 1930s during which Plaza Central, New Empire, Broadway, Eros and Metro all opened in Mumbai. Opened in 1933, Regal was designed by Charles Stevens, the son of the famous 19th century architect, F. W. Stevens. Its interiors with extensive mirror-work were designed by the Czech artist Karl Schara. The main auditorium had a motif of sunrays in pale orange and jade green. Its interiors were designed to create an impression of airiness, coolness and size in harmony with the modern simplicity of the exteriors. The Regal was built completely in reinforced concrete cement (RCC), fully air conditioned, and had an underground parking lot for patrons. The elevator up from the parking area was a major innovation at the time.
The cinema was the third venue to host the Filmfare Awards night. Today, it is a multi-use building combining a cinema with shops at street level.
Oh, just found your elephant assisted ("banking" in the trade) locomotive:
Danny, this picture of a cinema in Bombay reminds me of the one you told us of in Calcutta. Both boasted Air-Conditioning. A marvel then, I'm sure.
REGAL TALKIES, COLABA..
The Regal Cinema was built during the cinema boom of the 1930s during which Plaza Central, New Empire, Broadway, Eros and Metro all opened in Mumbai. Opened in 1933, Regal was designed by Charles Stevens, the son of the famous 19th century architect, F. W. Stevens. Its interiors with extensive mirror-work were designed by the Czech artist Karl Schara. The main auditorium had a motif of sunrays in pale orange and jade green. Its interiors were designed to create an impression of airiness, coolness and size in harmony with the modern simplicity of the exteriors. The Regal was built completely in reinforced concrete cement (RCC), fully air conditioned, and had an underground parking lot for patrons. The elevator up from the parking area was a major innovation at the time.
The cinema was the third venue to host the Filmfare Awards night. Today, it is a multi-use building combining a cinema with shops at street level.
Oh, just found your elephant assisted ("banking" in the trade) locomotive:
Last edited by Chugalug2; 22nd Sep 2012 at 12:31.
This tread has kicked in memories of Santa Cruz. This picture was taken in 1963 during a Sino Indian punch up. The clue as to why we were there is on the nose.
You cannot see it very well but it is a flight refuelling probe.
The ground equipment towing arrangements had improved since the elephant.
You cannot see it very well but it is a flight refuelling probe.
The ground equipment towing arrangements had improved since the elephant.
Last edited by Fareastdriver; 23rd Sep 2012 at 08:47.
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Juhu, big jets, elephants and air conditioned cinemas
Chugalug,
Yes, Tabby Badger's link is quite a find, isn't it ? Can't remember the name of the a/c cinema a few blocks down from the "Grand", but we thought it was the Eighth Wonder of the World.
For almost all of us, it was our first experience of a/c, we started to shiver in our shirts and shorts after the first ten minutes, but the worst part was when you came out into the street again. The heat hit you like a blow in the face.
The elephants are good fun, too. Luckily there were no air raids in those days !
EDIT: (for the benefit of those who have come in after my tale of the Khumbirgram elephant); the thought of half a dozen elephants running amok in close line astern with a steam loco hanging on behind as a sort of sea anchor does raise a gentle smile to the lips, doesn't it ? - provided you're at a safe distance !
Danny.
*****
Fareastdriver,
Interesting pictures - note the two gardeners busy on the bowling-green grass patches in the foreground. Labour was cheap and plentiful then.
But what are those "foreign objects" in the skies? I first thought s****hawks, but on looking closer, more like kites (one has a long tail). Who on earth would permit kite-flying so close to an airport ? Enlighten me, please !
Nice old Roller (Maharajahs for the use of) ! - bit beaten-up now.
Thanks, both,
Danny.
Yes, Tabby Badger's link is quite a find, isn't it ? Can't remember the name of the a/c cinema a few blocks down from the "Grand", but we thought it was the Eighth Wonder of the World.
For almost all of us, it was our first experience of a/c, we started to shiver in our shirts and shorts after the first ten minutes, but the worst part was when you came out into the street again. The heat hit you like a blow in the face.
The elephants are good fun, too. Luckily there were no air raids in those days !
EDIT: (for the benefit of those who have come in after my tale of the Khumbirgram elephant); the thought of half a dozen elephants running amok in close line astern with a steam loco hanging on behind as a sort of sea anchor does raise a gentle smile to the lips, doesn't it ? - provided you're at a safe distance !
Danny.
*****
Fareastdriver,
Interesting pictures - note the two gardeners busy on the bowling-green grass patches in the foreground. Labour was cheap and plentiful then.
But what are those "foreign objects" in the skies? I first thought s****hawks, but on looking closer, more like kites (one has a long tail). Who on earth would permit kite-flying so close to an airport ? Enlighten me, please !
Nice old Roller (Maharajahs for the use of) ! - bit beaten-up now.
Thanks, both,
Danny.
Last edited by Danny42C; 23rd Sep 2012 at 14:39. Reason: Tidy up spacing, and add Material.
Danny, I think they are blemishes on the photo, sort of electronic magnet for dust and fibres!
I came across this just a few moments ago
about one quarter the way down on the Guest book 2001-2002.htm site. There is an email address for John Topley but it's 10 years old, but might still get him if you wanted.
I did send Fred a message some months ago but obviously he couldn't have been well enough then to respond, but glad to see he's still in touch!
I came across this just a few moments ago
My late father Flight Lieutenant Rodney C. Topley served 3 years in Burma as a pilot and ' A Flight' commander from 1941-4 , flying Vultee Vengeances-A31"s against the Japanese. In 1944-45 he was switched to Typhoon Tempests in Europe which he eventully crashed on takeoff one day. by the way , the 110 's motto is "nec timeo nec sperno" Best regards, and keep up the good work, John D. Topley
I did send Fred a message some months ago but obviously he couldn't have been well enough then to respond, but glad to see he's still in touch!
the 110 's motto is "nec timeo nec sperno"
As Icare says; crap on the slides faithfully reproduced electronically.
Last edited by Fareastdriver; 23rd Sep 2012 at 08:49.
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Problem solved.
Icare9,
So that was the mundane explanation ! Ah, well.
I can't find the reference, but I seem to remember that savimosh01 told me that Rodney ("Topper") Topley had died, and also his son John (?) in recent years. "Topper" (he survived the war) was the Flight Commander to beat all others, in my book.
Danny.
*****
Fareastdriver,
We could set off quite a train of colloquial renderings of Squadron mottoes.
I follow you with 608 (Aux) Sqdn: "Omnibus Ungulis" ("with all my claws"),
rendered as: "All Balls" !
Danny.
*****
Thanks, both
So that was the mundane explanation ! Ah, well.
I can't find the reference, but I seem to remember that savimosh01 told me that Rodney ("Topper") Topley had died, and also his son John (?) in recent years. "Topper" (he survived the war) was the Flight Commander to beat all others, in my book.
Danny.
*****
Fareastdriver,
We could set off quite a train of colloquial renderings of Squadron mottoes.
I follow you with 608 (Aux) Sqdn: "Omnibus Ungulis" ("with all my claws"),
rendered as: "All Balls" !
Danny.
*****
Thanks, both
Guest
Posts: n/a
Danny enters into his kingdom.
In March '45, I took over as the C.O. of this unit from "Red" McInnis, who had come out on the "Stirling Castle" with me, and flown with me on 110 Sqn. He explained the job, and warned me about the airmen I should keep an eye on *. Then he handed over the safe keys and Code Books and happily went off back to Canada, leaving me with a box of cheap cigars and (although I didn't find out till later) six month's arrears of F.540 - the Operational Record Book.
This hallowed document is the detailed War Diary of a unit. Rendered monthly up the chain of command, it finally comes to rest in the Air Historical Branch of the Air Ministry.
Note *: There was one Glaswegian whom McInnis had occasion to reprimand, and who had bawled: "You can't talk to me like that !" (or words to that effect). The Service can tolerate many things, but insubordination has to be stamped on. McInnis put him under arrest and remanded the case to the Colonel (I am not sure of the legitimacy of this, but they did it, anyway). He had the power to give, and gave the miscreant twenty-one days in the "glasshouse". What they did with him there, I don't know, but he came back like a little lamb and I had no trouble at all with him afterwards (they'd clearly had found the secret of rehabilitation!) He must have shared his experiences with the other airmen; this seemed to have had a salutary effect and they all behaved themselves in my time.
It was just as well, because my powers of punishment as a Subordinate Commander were limited; "Confined to Barracks" had no meaning, because there was nothing to go out of camp for in any case, except for a swim, and the shoreline was wide open for that. The only extra duty I can think of now would be rat-hole filler-upper. AFAIK, you couldn't impose stoppages of pay then.
In truth, any sensible chap could see that he was onto a good thing in this Unit, and he would be silly to spoil it. He was housed well (in the proper built "cantonment") and fed quite well (as were we all) in the Army Messes. The beach was only a stone's throw away, the sea was warm and safe. There were no Japanese closer than 2500 miles. There was no entertainment, but in general that was true everwhere else. Many had served in the Arakan or Assam in the years before; they could see which side their bread was buttered on, and some were counting the weeks up to their "boat" home in any case.
In my pending tray lay increasingly irate reminders about this Form 540 from 225 Group in Bangalore. CDRE (in the person of their Liaison Officer, a W/Cdr Edmondes),* had managed (presumably at McInnis's request) to secure "Stew" Mobsby from some non-job up North and got him posted in to the Unit as "Adj". He (now a F/O, so he must have been commissioned about the time I left Samungli) was naturally as pleased to get me as the new C.O. as I was to see him, and we set to work together with the Authorisation Book, made notes of what anybody could remember, and used imagination to fill in the gaps. Henry Ford was right: history is bunk, and in many cases it's not even history. I smoked a pipe then so I cut the cigars up and fed them in. It wasn't really a success.
Note * See the post by Petet (# 2444, p. 123) Our W/Cdr may well have been the "Edmondes" - "Edmonds" - "Edmunds", the inventor of the epoymous Trainer (oh, how I wish I could recall his initials !)
Our task was to do, within reason, anything the CDRE wanted for their trials. I was established with a Harvard and three Vengeance Mk. IIIs. One of these, FB986, was a veteran from one of the old Squadrons and still bore its faded letter "M" for "Mother" (in the old phonetics); it was my favourite as it never seemed to give any trouble.
Of course, there was no question of dive-bombing on this job. Accuracy is not needed when putting gas down. All we had to do was to get the stuff into quite large fields at Porkal or Kumbla (about 40 miles north up the coast), where the CDRE had laid out ranges for their trials.
No conventional bomb types were used. Internally we carried loads of 2 x 6-packs of 65 lb tins of mustard gas (square sectioned, very like the ubiquitous 4-gallon fuel can), and "Chedlets" - smaller segmented things (named after the well known packets of processed cheese, the shape of which they closely resembled).
Besides these, there were 500 lb mustard gas clusters, and a 4 lb bomb. I've forgotten what exactly this was, but an entry in my log shows batches of 42 being dropped from 4,000 ft. This was most unusual, and I cannot recall why (as all other gas ordnance was dropped low-level). There was no need for any of these items to be of ballistic shape, and there were no fuses. We just dropped them and they burst open on impact.
The cans sometimes leaked from the soldered lids and seams, and made most unpleasant cargo. The "post-box" slot on the Vengeance cockpit floor carried up fumes from the bomb bay, so we always flew with canopies fully open, not that that was any hardship in the heat. I cannot remember any hang-ups, for the release mechanism was very simple, but even so we were always glad to get the gas canisters out of the bays. Looking back, I'm amazed at how casually we worked with this dangerous stuff. I never saw a mask worn (and we certainly didn't have any). Of course, my armourers only had to load the containers into the bays, and fit spray tanks to the wing racks.
These wing racks were a different proposition. It would be dangerous to carry the thin-skinned tins out in the airflow (and think of the drag they would cause), so spray tanks were fitted to the bomb racks. From memory, these were cylinders about 15 in in diameter and 4 - 5 ft long. They would hold about ten gallons. There was a spigot at the back of (and projecting below) the tank, and a filling point in the nose. There was no "tap" arrangement: this would be very hard to design, as the original release circuit was just a simple on-off.
The solution was ingenious. There was this small circular opening at the front of the tank, and a similar one in the tail pipe. The tanks were filled with liquid gas ( this was an unpleasant job), and bakelite discs fitted into the apertures to seal them. Each disk carried a tiny explosive charge and detonator, wired up to the cockpit switch. You pressed the button, both disks exploded, the ram effect from air pressure drove all the contents out of the rear nozzle, and the rush of air "scoured" all the gas out of the tank. That way, it would be less of a danger to my ground crew after landing, and ready for refilling by the CDRE's armourers. As with the tins, the spraying was of course done low-level.
There's much more to come, but that'll do for the time being,
Goodnight, chaps,
Danny42C.
"L'État, C'ést Moi !"
This hallowed document is the detailed War Diary of a unit. Rendered monthly up the chain of command, it finally comes to rest in the Air Historical Branch of the Air Ministry.
Note *: There was one Glaswegian whom McInnis had occasion to reprimand, and who had bawled: "You can't talk to me like that !" (or words to that effect). The Service can tolerate many things, but insubordination has to be stamped on. McInnis put him under arrest and remanded the case to the Colonel (I am not sure of the legitimacy of this, but they did it, anyway). He had the power to give, and gave the miscreant twenty-one days in the "glasshouse". What they did with him there, I don't know, but he came back like a little lamb and I had no trouble at all with him afterwards (they'd clearly had found the secret of rehabilitation!) He must have shared his experiences with the other airmen; this seemed to have had a salutary effect and they all behaved themselves in my time.
It was just as well, because my powers of punishment as a Subordinate Commander were limited; "Confined to Barracks" had no meaning, because there was nothing to go out of camp for in any case, except for a swim, and the shoreline was wide open for that. The only extra duty I can think of now would be rat-hole filler-upper. AFAIK, you couldn't impose stoppages of pay then.
In truth, any sensible chap could see that he was onto a good thing in this Unit, and he would be silly to spoil it. He was housed well (in the proper built "cantonment") and fed quite well (as were we all) in the Army Messes. The beach was only a stone's throw away, the sea was warm and safe. There were no Japanese closer than 2500 miles. There was no entertainment, but in general that was true everwhere else. Many had served in the Arakan or Assam in the years before; they could see which side their bread was buttered on, and some were counting the weeks up to their "boat" home in any case.
In my pending tray lay increasingly irate reminders about this Form 540 from 225 Group in Bangalore. CDRE (in the person of their Liaison Officer, a W/Cdr Edmondes),* had managed (presumably at McInnis's request) to secure "Stew" Mobsby from some non-job up North and got him posted in to the Unit as "Adj". He (now a F/O, so he must have been commissioned about the time I left Samungli) was naturally as pleased to get me as the new C.O. as I was to see him, and we set to work together with the Authorisation Book, made notes of what anybody could remember, and used imagination to fill in the gaps. Henry Ford was right: history is bunk, and in many cases it's not even history. I smoked a pipe then so I cut the cigars up and fed them in. It wasn't really a success.
Note * See the post by Petet (# 2444, p. 123) Our W/Cdr may well have been the "Edmondes" - "Edmonds" - "Edmunds", the inventor of the epoymous Trainer (oh, how I wish I could recall his initials !)
Our task was to do, within reason, anything the CDRE wanted for their trials. I was established with a Harvard and three Vengeance Mk. IIIs. One of these, FB986, was a veteran from one of the old Squadrons and still bore its faded letter "M" for "Mother" (in the old phonetics); it was my favourite as it never seemed to give any trouble.
Of course, there was no question of dive-bombing on this job. Accuracy is not needed when putting gas down. All we had to do was to get the stuff into quite large fields at Porkal or Kumbla (about 40 miles north up the coast), where the CDRE had laid out ranges for their trials.
No conventional bomb types were used. Internally we carried loads of 2 x 6-packs of 65 lb tins of mustard gas (square sectioned, very like the ubiquitous 4-gallon fuel can), and "Chedlets" - smaller segmented things (named after the well known packets of processed cheese, the shape of which they closely resembled).
Besides these, there were 500 lb mustard gas clusters, and a 4 lb bomb. I've forgotten what exactly this was, but an entry in my log shows batches of 42 being dropped from 4,000 ft. This was most unusual, and I cannot recall why (as all other gas ordnance was dropped low-level). There was no need for any of these items to be of ballistic shape, and there were no fuses. We just dropped them and they burst open on impact.
The cans sometimes leaked from the soldered lids and seams, and made most unpleasant cargo. The "post-box" slot on the Vengeance cockpit floor carried up fumes from the bomb bay, so we always flew with canopies fully open, not that that was any hardship in the heat. I cannot remember any hang-ups, for the release mechanism was very simple, but even so we were always glad to get the gas canisters out of the bays. Looking back, I'm amazed at how casually we worked with this dangerous stuff. I never saw a mask worn (and we certainly didn't have any). Of course, my armourers only had to load the containers into the bays, and fit spray tanks to the wing racks.
These wing racks were a different proposition. It would be dangerous to carry the thin-skinned tins out in the airflow (and think of the drag they would cause), so spray tanks were fitted to the bomb racks. From memory, these were cylinders about 15 in in diameter and 4 - 5 ft long. They would hold about ten gallons. There was a spigot at the back of (and projecting below) the tank, and a filling point in the nose. There was no "tap" arrangement: this would be very hard to design, as the original release circuit was just a simple on-off.
The solution was ingenious. There was this small circular opening at the front of the tank, and a similar one in the tail pipe. The tanks were filled with liquid gas ( this was an unpleasant job), and bakelite discs fitted into the apertures to seal them. Each disk carried a tiny explosive charge and detonator, wired up to the cockpit switch. You pressed the button, both disks exploded, the ram effect from air pressure drove all the contents out of the rear nozzle, and the rush of air "scoured" all the gas out of the tank. That way, it would be less of a danger to my ground crew after landing, and ready for refilling by the CDRE's armourers. As with the tins, the spraying was of course done low-level.
There's much more to come, but that'll do for the time being,
Goodnight, chaps,
Danny42C.
"L'État, C'ést Moi !"
Last edited by Danny42C; 25th Sep 2012 at 22:40. Reason: Spelling Error.
sua cuique voluptas
Ooops.....that remark was more about me than you, Danny. The ton? I'm sure that you'll breeze it!
What I meant was (and I'm trailing you by 24 years here) that there is SO much about this period to learn about that is fascinating to us young sprogs. I only hope that my powers of recall and narration are half as acute as yours in years to come. Not that mine are particularly cute now......
In retirement one of the daily delights is to follow the stories and memories of those who served our country in times of war. I salute you all and pay my respects in acknowledgement of the debt that the nation owes to you in my own way.
Ripline
What I meant was (and I'm trailing you by 24 years here) that there is SO much about this period to learn about that is fascinating to us young sprogs. I only hope that my powers of recall and narration are half as acute as yours in years to come. Not that mine are particularly cute now......
In retirement one of the daily delights is to follow the stories and memories of those who served our country in times of war. I salute you all and pay my respects in acknowledgement of the debt that the nation owes to you in my own way.
Ripline
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Ars longa, vita brevis !
Ripline and Tabby Badger,
Ripline, I was only joking ! (know what you mean). Thank you both for the very kind words of appreciation for my efforts. But it was just our fortune (good or bad) to have been in the generation which was in the right time and the right place to do the job which clearly had to be done.
I'm sure that yours (and later ones) would have been every bit as equal to the challenge if (God forbid) you'd had to rise to it.
Cheers,
Danny.
Gaudeamus igitur, iuvenestes eramus.
Ripline, I was only joking ! (know what you mean). Thank you both for the very kind words of appreciation for my efforts. But it was just our fortune (good or bad) to have been in the generation which was in the right time and the right place to do the job which clearly had to be done.
I'm sure that yours (and later ones) would have been every bit as equal to the challenge if (God forbid) you'd had to rise to it.
Cheers,
Danny.
Gaudeamus igitur, iuvenestes eramus.
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Great stuff, Danny, I'm on the edge of my seat at the thought of this poison gas; I must have missed something. Couldn't you have used water for the testing if you were only testing delivery?
The thought of what would have happened with a crash, on take-off, from your rather dodgy strip...
Your point about promotions. It was automatic F/O to F/Lt after three years? - this judging by my father's records - and those of those who joined with him, courtesy of the Gazette. So did this mean you couldn't be promoted more quickly, or did it mean that any earlier promotions were just 'acting' so as to save the Government salary costs?
The thought of what would have happened with a crash, on take-off, from your rather dodgy strip...
Your point about promotions. It was automatic F/O to F/Lt after three years? - this judging by my father's records - and those of those who joined with him, courtesy of the Gazette. So did this mean you couldn't be promoted more quickly, or did it mean that any earlier promotions were just 'acting' so as to save the Government salary costs?
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Poison Gases and Promotion.
Reader123,
We weren't just testing delivery, I'm afraid. When we put the stuff down, they had their guinea-pigs marching about in it (to test anti-gas dubbins on their boots) and lying down in it in firing position to test anti-gas capes.
They were put out under our sprays to test capes and gloves. Inevitably, some gas got through, the M.O.s had a massive collection of pics of gas blisters "before and after" testing their various remedies. It did not make pleasant viewing ! (and of course, it was the same with the animals which were treated by the vets).
I agree with you as regards the horrific possibilities of a crash with a loaded aircraft. As the packages were deliberately flimsy, so as to ensure bursting on impact, the likelihood in any serious accident was that the crew would end up soaked in mustard. The thing then was to get the stuff washed off ASAP.
The degree of burn depended on the length of time the agent stayed on the skin. I was told that 20 mins would result in a third-degree burn, but this figure may be inaccurate. But my daughter (who is professionally skilled in these matters) tells me that the rule of thumb (for ordinary burns) is: add the % area of whole body of skin affected to your age, subtract from 100, result is your % chance of survival. Recovery would be painful and involve much skin grafting. Death would be as horrible as consciously dying in an aircraft fire, but more protracted.
The wartime promotion times for aircrew were : 6 months from scratch to F/O, then two years total commissoned service to War Substantive Flight Lieutenant (of course you might get acting rank earlier). In practice, out there your commission was so slow coming through that most people were already F/Os when it arrived. I believe that W/Os were commissioned straight away as F/Os. After the war ended, peacetime rules came back, of course.
Nearly time for bed,
Cheers,
Danny.
Postscript 1: Browsing about on Google, I lighted on a link: "BBC Home",
"WW2 Peoples' War, An Archive of World War Two Memories" > "Archive List" > "India Category" > "Diary of J.J.W. Donaldson 1943".
Well worth a read. Donaldson's account of the discomforts involved in "It ain't half hot, Mum" are the best I've read since Kipling's "Paget, M.P."
Postscript 2: "Spitfire" coming on "Yesterday" (FV19) in 5 mins. Must-see !
D.
We weren't just testing delivery, I'm afraid. When we put the stuff down, they had their guinea-pigs marching about in it (to test anti-gas dubbins on their boots) and lying down in it in firing position to test anti-gas capes.
They were put out under our sprays to test capes and gloves. Inevitably, some gas got through, the M.O.s had a massive collection of pics of gas blisters "before and after" testing their various remedies. It did not make pleasant viewing ! (and of course, it was the same with the animals which were treated by the vets).
I agree with you as regards the horrific possibilities of a crash with a loaded aircraft. As the packages were deliberately flimsy, so as to ensure bursting on impact, the likelihood in any serious accident was that the crew would end up soaked in mustard. The thing then was to get the stuff washed off ASAP.
The degree of burn depended on the length of time the agent stayed on the skin. I was told that 20 mins would result in a third-degree burn, but this figure may be inaccurate. But my daughter (who is professionally skilled in these matters) tells me that the rule of thumb (for ordinary burns) is: add the % area of whole body of skin affected to your age, subtract from 100, result is your % chance of survival. Recovery would be painful and involve much skin grafting. Death would be as horrible as consciously dying in an aircraft fire, but more protracted.
The wartime promotion times for aircrew were : 6 months from scratch to F/O, then two years total commissoned service to War Substantive Flight Lieutenant (of course you might get acting rank earlier). In practice, out there your commission was so slow coming through that most people were already F/Os when it arrived. I believe that W/Os were commissioned straight away as F/Os. After the war ended, peacetime rules came back, of course.
Nearly time for bed,
Cheers,
Danny.
Postscript 1: Browsing about on Google, I lighted on a link: "BBC Home",
"WW2 Peoples' War, An Archive of World War Two Memories" > "Archive List" > "India Category" > "Diary of J.J.W. Donaldson 1943".
Well worth a read. Donaldson's account of the discomforts involved in "It ain't half hot, Mum" are the best I've read since Kipling's "Paget, M.P."
Postscript 2: "Spitfire" coming on "Yesterday" (FV19) in 5 mins. Must-see !
D.
Last edited by Danny42C; 26th Sep 2012 at 22:51. Reason: Add Material.
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51 Squadron December 1949
I know this is a little off topic, but I have been continuing the research on my Grandfather's RAF career post WWII, and I came across this quote by Keith S. Ford in his book "Swift and Sure".
December 1949
"In December the squadron started normal route flying. Some aircrew were on route flying experience and the necessary categorisations were being carried out. Normal schedules were route flying to Singapore and Nairobi. But the squadron also participated in special flights. Interesting ones were Sunray flights, when the squadron were given the task of supporting Bomber Command. No doubt by this time all the old Halifax bomber boys had been demobbed."
Hmm I know of one veteran from 51 Sqdn. 1943-44 who was serving with 51 Sqdn in Dec 1949... question is - were there any more?
Regards
Paul
December 1949
"In December the squadron started normal route flying. Some aircrew were on route flying experience and the necessary categorisations were being carried out. Normal schedules were route flying to Singapore and Nairobi. But the squadron also participated in special flights. Interesting ones were Sunray flights, when the squadron were given the task of supporting Bomber Command. No doubt by this time all the old Halifax bomber boys had been demobbed."
Hmm I know of one veteran from 51 Sqdn. 1943-44 who was serving with 51 Sqdn in Dec 1949... question is - were there any more?
Regards
Paul
Interesting that you were called upon to actually "gas" people Danny. When you call them "guinea pigs", were they volunteers do you know? I seem to recall that Porton Down itself were supplied with volunteers in the 60's, though the volunteering bit was supposedly for research into the common cold! As you say, the effects could be quite devastating (the whole point of the exercise of course), even more so with some of Porton's more exotic cocktails.
As for yourselves, the previously described procedure of aiming out to sea and abandoning the aircraft would seem to have been the best emergency option, if available. The thought of trying to extricate yourselves from a wrecked machine swamped in Mustard Gas is pretty grim.
I've just read your Peoples War link Danny. Very descriptive indeed. You would appear to have a rival!
As for yourselves, the previously described procedure of aiming out to sea and abandoning the aircraft would seem to have been the best emergency option, if available. The thought of trying to extricate yourselves from a wrecked machine swamped in Mustard Gas is pretty grim.
I've just read your Peoples War link Danny. Very descriptive indeed. You would appear to have a rival!
