Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II
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Where was Redhills Lake ?
Chugalug,
You've got me bang to rights, Guv ! I never went to Redhills Lake, was told at the time (I'm sure) that it was North of Madras, but never bothered to look it up on the map. But now I must admit that my old memory must have slipped a cog (180 degrees of cogs in fact!). I'm sure you're right.
So it was 21 Armament Practice Camp, after all. Well, I suppose I must have given them some practice in taking cover from a dive-bomber attack (they weren't very grateful, though).
And another tasty link you've found me ! (and the night is yet young) - Ta !
Danny.
EDIT: Yes, I see it now - it's all there, only a short distance south of Cholaveram. How could I not remember such a body of water so close ? (Do you remember the pic of Carlstrom Field you found me, and I had to admit that, if it had been shown to me with no indication of what it was, I would have been quite unable to identify it - and I'd flown sixty hours primary training at the place ! It's unbelievable........D.
You've got me bang to rights, Guv ! I never went to Redhills Lake, was told at the time (I'm sure) that it was North of Madras, but never bothered to look it up on the map. But now I must admit that my old memory must have slipped a cog (180 degrees of cogs in fact!). I'm sure you're right.
So it was 21 Armament Practice Camp, after all. Well, I suppose I must have given them some practice in taking cover from a dive-bomber attack (they weren't very grateful, though).
And another tasty link you've found me ! (and the night is yet young) - Ta !
Danny.
EDIT: Yes, I see it now - it's all there, only a short distance south of Cholaveram. How could I not remember such a body of water so close ? (Do you remember the pic of Carlstrom Field you found me, and I had to admit that, if it had been shown to me with no indication of what it was, I would have been quite unable to identify it - and I'd flown sixty hours primary training at the place ! It's unbelievable........D.
Last edited by Danny42C; 5th Sep 2012 at 23:25. Reason: Additional Material.
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Fredjhh
Fred,
I recently became aware of your deteriorating health. Very sad news. As a long time forum member, however not so active lately, I have immensely enjoyed your posts and responses to my many questions especially because of my connection with 51 squadron. It’s such a privilege to “talk” to those that lived it – a level of anecdotal detail that will not be found in the history books.
Thank you for all you have done and all the best.
Rodger
I recently became aware of your deteriorating health. Very sad news. As a long time forum member, however not so active lately, I have immensely enjoyed your posts and responses to my many questions especially because of my connection with 51 squadron. It’s such a privilege to “talk” to those that lived it – a level of anecdotal detail that will not be found in the history books.
Thank you for all you have done and all the best.
Rodger
Last edited by rmventuri; 6th Sep 2012 at 18:17.
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Dates of Mosquito Trouble in India in 1944.
Chugalug,
Having struck oil with the Stations-C link you found me, I tried my hand with Stations-Y and came up with Yelahanka. Lots of interesting stuff in there. For a start 1580 Flight and 21 A.P.C. were originally there, before moving to Cholaveram together in September '44. But the real surprise was that there was a No. 1672 (Mosquito) Conversion Unit there from 1 Feb '44 - 3 Jun '44 and from 29 Oc t '44 - 10 Aug '45.
This has me completely baffled. Who on earth were they converting ? I'd always believed that fully trained crews came out with the Mosquitos to take over from the Vengeance people - who in any case were in the last year of their tours and so not worth converting. Who else could there be in India except Beaufighter and Dakota crews, who were busy enough already ?
Stations-Y gives a clue. The aircraft used by the unit are listed as Blenheim V, Mosquito III and Oxford I. This looks like an ab-initio conversion unit to me. So where were all these aircraft in Nov - Dec '44 ? Don't recall seeing any of them while I was there then. What I do remember was 1670 (Thunderbolt) Conversion Unit - they were all too real !
Another strange thing: 45, 84 and 110 Squadrons are listed as being there (but no dates given). So why was 82 the odd man out ? The whole business bristles with unanswered questions. Can any one explain ?
But the crucial information is in the dates. 1672 were out of business from 4.6.44. to 28.10.44. nearly five months. And we know there were accidents in mid May. We have the time frame of the Mosquito troubles tied down at last.
Danny.
Having struck oil with the Stations-C link you found me, I tried my hand with Stations-Y and came up with Yelahanka. Lots of interesting stuff in there. For a start 1580 Flight and 21 A.P.C. were originally there, before moving to Cholaveram together in September '44. But the real surprise was that there was a No. 1672 (Mosquito) Conversion Unit there from 1 Feb '44 - 3 Jun '44 and from 29 Oc t '44 - 10 Aug '45.
This has me completely baffled. Who on earth were they converting ? I'd always believed that fully trained crews came out with the Mosquitos to take over from the Vengeance people - who in any case were in the last year of their tours and so not worth converting. Who else could there be in India except Beaufighter and Dakota crews, who were busy enough already ?
Stations-Y gives a clue. The aircraft used by the unit are listed as Blenheim V, Mosquito III and Oxford I. This looks like an ab-initio conversion unit to me. So where were all these aircraft in Nov - Dec '44 ? Don't recall seeing any of them while I was there then. What I do remember was 1670 (Thunderbolt) Conversion Unit - they were all too real !
Another strange thing: 45, 84 and 110 Squadrons are listed as being there (but no dates given). So why was 82 the odd man out ? The whole business bristles with unanswered questions. Can any one explain ?
But the crucial information is in the dates. 1672 were out of business from 4.6.44. to 28.10.44. nearly five months. And we know there were accidents in mid May. We have the time frame of the Mosquito troubles tied down at last.
Danny.
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Pondicherry was still French territory, one of the few remnants of their former colonial empire, which the Raj indulgently allowed to stay as being too small to bother with (later they would get short shrift from an independent India). But then the Tricouleur still hung in the sun outside a sleepy Hotel de Ville.
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Pondicherry
lasernigel,
Thanks for that snippet. I always enjoy a quiet smile to see these little traces of the old colonial days still lingering on. In the next place I got to in India, we had an even tinier French possession a few miles down the coast, Mahe (e-acute). I think there was just one rue, driving through, if you blinked you'd missed it.
And the last example to catch my eye: in the old Indian Penal Code there was an offence of "Waging war against the King". This worked as a sort of super Section 40 of the AFA, with the added advantage that you could hang the chap. After the Bombay terrorist attack a year or two ago, they captured one attacker alive, and put him on trial. Among the charges was "Waging war against India".
It's clear that the independent Indian judicial system had simply picked up the old Penal Code Book of the Raj, and set their Word Processor on "Search and Replace" (for "the King", read "India") !
Cheers, Danny.
Thanks for that snippet. I always enjoy a quiet smile to see these little traces of the old colonial days still lingering on. In the next place I got to in India, we had an even tinier French possession a few miles down the coast, Mahe (e-acute). I think there was just one rue, driving through, if you blinked you'd missed it.
And the last example to catch my eye: in the old Indian Penal Code there was an offence of "Waging war against the King". This worked as a sort of super Section 40 of the AFA, with the added advantage that you could hang the chap. After the Bombay terrorist attack a year or two ago, they captured one attacker alive, and put him on trial. Among the charges was "Waging war against India".
It's clear that the independent Indian judicial system had simply picked up the old Penal Code Book of the Raj, and set their Word Processor on "Search and Replace" (for "the King", read "India") !
Cheers, Danny.
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I had to admit, I knew nothing of these weird bits of France in India. More bloody research!
Danny - Now we come to an awkward moment, representing an erk's recollection and a pilot's recollection!
My dad always swore that he was dragged into planes he had repaired/overhauled/put togther/refitted etc by a pilot (Aussies normally I believe) saying, "If this plane is crook, you're coming down with me when the wings fold up."
You present your trips as a cordial invite to a comrade!
Dad loved it of course (somewhere I've got how many types he flew in, there were loads) but he would never let the pilot know how much he enjoyed the flights, especially as he knew his planes wouldn't fall apart!!
Keep up the posts my friend!
Danny - Now we come to an awkward moment, representing an erk's recollection and a pilot's recollection!
My dad always swore that he was dragged into planes he had repaired/overhauled/put togther/refitted etc by a pilot (Aussies normally I believe) saying, "If this plane is crook, you're coming down with me when the wings fold up."
You present your trips as a cordial invite to a comrade!
Dad loved it of course (somewhere I've got how many types he flew in, there were loads) but he would never let the pilot know how much he enjoyed the flights, especially as he knew his planes wouldn't fall apart!!
Keep up the posts my friend!
Danny 1672 Mosquito Conversion Unit was still in business after it left Yelahanka, for Stations-R shows:
No 1672 (Mosquito) Conversion Unit (10 - 31 Aug 1945) at Ranchi, in NE India:
Stations-R.
Wikki shows a 1670 (M)CU at Yelahanka with indeed; Blenheim V, Mosquito III, and Oxford I. I guess that is a transcription error, as 1670 is in the entry above operating Beaufighters at Baigachi, and it should read 1672. Does the (M) stand for Mosquito? In which case what were the Blenheims for? Was the Oxford the Unit hack?
List of Royal Air Force Conversion Units - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Even if they weren't flying Mosquitoes at Yelahanka when you got there, where did they hide them? You'd think you'd have spotted at least one, seeing as you were looking for them! They looked like this:
Aeromaster 48-043: Mosquito
The answers to all our questions, particularly what happened to all those that had the "wrong sort of glue", would probably be instantly available in this forum I suspect:
Aviation History and Nostalgia - PPRuNe Forums
No 1672 (Mosquito) Conversion Unit (10 - 31 Aug 1945) at Ranchi, in NE India:
Stations-R.
Wikki shows a 1670 (M)CU at Yelahanka with indeed; Blenheim V, Mosquito III, and Oxford I. I guess that is a transcription error, as 1670 is in the entry above operating Beaufighters at Baigachi, and it should read 1672. Does the (M) stand for Mosquito? In which case what were the Blenheims for? Was the Oxford the Unit hack?
List of Royal Air Force Conversion Units - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Even if they weren't flying Mosquitoes at Yelahanka when you got there, where did they hide them? You'd think you'd have spotted at least one, seeing as you were looking for them! They looked like this:
Aeromaster 48-043: Mosquito
The answers to all our questions, particularly what happened to all those that had the "wrong sort of glue", would probably be instantly available in this forum I suspect:
Aviation History and Nostalgia - PPRuNe Forums
Last edited by Chugalug2; 7th Sep 2012 at 21:37.
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The plot thickens.
Chugalug,
The plot thickens. Poking about (forgotten where) in Wiki, came across this (it is an excerpt, but contains the relevant material - italics mine):
Flight Lieutenant 123152 Ronald Gilchrist Cameron RAFVR 'Jock'
Contributed on: 21 August 2005
"He was transferred to No 3 (P) AFU South Cerney in April 1944 to be retrained on twin engined aircraft, this it was discovered was for a posting overseas to an operational squadron. He was sent on various courses to other AFU's and Blind Approach Training Flights while at South Cerney.Finally moving to 5PDC at Blackpool for dispatch to India via Liverpool. He sailed on HMT Strathnaver to Bombay, and sent to Worli to be allocated to a Squadron.
After a short stay at 3 Refresher Flying Unit at Poona and 1672 Mosquito Conversion Unit at Yelahanka. He was posted to 84 Squadron on the same Air station. Here he was teamed up with W/O George Park McMahon a navigator who was "regular" RAF and had flown operations in Europe and over the Atlantic. This partnership was to see him through to the war's end.
While with 84 Squadron he was introduced the Vultee Vengeance aircraft, which he describes as a huge beast that you could almost go for a walk around the cockpit. He also flew again in a Harvard "the squadron hack" and also the Oxfords the squadron had been allocated to prepare the unit for the Mosquito.
The arrival of the "Mossie" brought some more bad luck as he crashed one of the first aircraft the squadron were given (HR638). The mistake is well documented in "Scorpions Sting".
He told me of his impression of the Mosquito (and ‘Willie’ in particular) was "I felt that in a mosquito I would always get me back to base no matter what". He trusted the Mosquito, even when others were falling out of the sky due to the problems with the mainspar, he always stated would have continued to fly one if required to do so".
From which I deduce:
(a) People were coming out in early '44 untrained on Mossies; the conversion was to be done in India.
(b) He was posted to 84 Sqdn. while they still had VVs and they were at Yelahanka.
(c) The Harvard ("the squadron hack") would be the one I flew.
(d) The Oxfords (and Blenheims?) were for training: it was an ab-initio operation as I guessed.
It follows that all this lot were presumably at Yelahanka while I was there. Could you have a clearer demonstration of why I am absolutely not to be trusted as an authority ! (but the start-stop dates of the trouble are still OK).
I'll have a look at Aviation History and Nostalgia as you suggest, (I look in there from time to time to see if any Spitfires have been exhumed).
Danny.
*****
angels and lasernigel,
Not only the French and ourselves had fingers in the pie ! At one time and another, the Portugese, Dutch and Danish had a piece of the action. (All in Wiki, at great length): the Portugese came off second best after us with Goa, which remained neutral throughout WW2.
It seems Pondicherry was Free-French (not Vichy), which would be why we left it alone. I mentioned Mahe a short time; this is more than I knew until ten minutes ago: "there were only two European powers left in Kerala - the English and the French. The Indische Compagnie moved out from Cochin in 1795, the French had captured Mayyazhi, renaming it to Mahé (in honour of Bertrand François Mahé de La Bourdonnais"). His name is nearly as long as the one & only Rue in the place !
Thank you for your "a cordial invite to a comrade". (I accept it as a compliment !),
Danny.
The plot thickens. Poking about (forgotten where) in Wiki, came across this (it is an excerpt, but contains the relevant material - italics mine):
Flight Lieutenant 123152 Ronald Gilchrist Cameron RAFVR 'Jock'
Contributed on: 21 August 2005
"He was transferred to No 3 (P) AFU South Cerney in April 1944 to be retrained on twin engined aircraft, this it was discovered was for a posting overseas to an operational squadron. He was sent on various courses to other AFU's and Blind Approach Training Flights while at South Cerney.Finally moving to 5PDC at Blackpool for dispatch to India via Liverpool. He sailed on HMT Strathnaver to Bombay, and sent to Worli to be allocated to a Squadron.
After a short stay at 3 Refresher Flying Unit at Poona and 1672 Mosquito Conversion Unit at Yelahanka. He was posted to 84 Squadron on the same Air station. Here he was teamed up with W/O George Park McMahon a navigator who was "regular" RAF and had flown operations in Europe and over the Atlantic. This partnership was to see him through to the war's end.
While with 84 Squadron he was introduced the Vultee Vengeance aircraft, which he describes as a huge beast that you could almost go for a walk around the cockpit. He also flew again in a Harvard "the squadron hack" and also the Oxfords the squadron had been allocated to prepare the unit for the Mosquito.
The arrival of the "Mossie" brought some more bad luck as he crashed one of the first aircraft the squadron were given (HR638). The mistake is well documented in "Scorpions Sting".
He told me of his impression of the Mosquito (and ‘Willie’ in particular) was "I felt that in a mosquito I would always get me back to base no matter what". He trusted the Mosquito, even when others were falling out of the sky due to the problems with the mainspar, he always stated would have continued to fly one if required to do so".
From which I deduce:
(a) People were coming out in early '44 untrained on Mossies; the conversion was to be done in India.
(b) He was posted to 84 Sqdn. while they still had VVs and they were at Yelahanka.
(c) The Harvard ("the squadron hack") would be the one I flew.
(d) The Oxfords (and Blenheims?) were for training: it was an ab-initio operation as I guessed.
It follows that all this lot were presumably at Yelahanka while I was there. Could you have a clearer demonstration of why I am absolutely not to be trusted as an authority ! (but the start-stop dates of the trouble are still OK).
I'll have a look at Aviation History and Nostalgia as you suggest, (I look in there from time to time to see if any Spitfires have been exhumed).
Danny.
*****
angels and lasernigel,
Not only the French and ourselves had fingers in the pie ! At one time and another, the Portugese, Dutch and Danish had a piece of the action. (All in Wiki, at great length): the Portugese came off second best after us with Goa, which remained neutral throughout WW2.
It seems Pondicherry was Free-French (not Vichy), which would be why we left it alone. I mentioned Mahe a short time; this is more than I knew until ten minutes ago: "there were only two European powers left in Kerala - the English and the French. The Indische Compagnie moved out from Cochin in 1795, the French had captured Mayyazhi, renaming it to Mahé (in honour of Bertrand François Mahé de La Bourdonnais"). His name is nearly as long as the one & only Rue in the place !
Thank you for your "a cordial invite to a comrade". (I accept it as a compliment !),
Danny.
Last edited by Danny42C; 8th Sep 2012 at 17:36. Reason: Add Material.
the Portugese came off second best after us with Goa, which remained neutral throughout WW2.
Not a lot of people know about that.
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A Danny come to Judgment.
"The Cat was a dandy, the Cat was a Yank,
It was called by its aircrew the (blank) Flying Plank"
on account of its huge, long, rectangular wing, from under which our chap knew (but apparently the skipper didn't) that he could reach the engine control cables through an inspection panel over his position (out of sight of the pilots).
A couple of smart tugs, an engine which had been peacefully droning for hours suddenly bellowed, boost and rev needles swung wildly round the clock, then settled back. Justifiably alarmed by these harbingers of a "runaway prop", the Captain readily fell in with the F/E's advice to RTB. He put the ship about and they all went home in nice time for tea.
The Flight Engineer's satisfaction was short-lived. The Engineer Officer investigated, smelt a rat, collared the culprit and extracted a confession. Then the affair snowballed. In our opinion, a monumental blowing-up, and a few extra duties, would have amply met the case. But we suspected that there was more to it than met the eye. The Engineer Officer, old in the Service as most of them were, would know all the ways of making his displeasure keenly felt without invoking the Law.
But for some reason he "threw the book" at the offender. He charged him under the catch-all Section 40 of the Air Force Act: "W.O.A.S. * Conduct to the Prejudice of Good Order and Air Force Discipline in that he did, improperly and without authority, interfere with the engine control cables of His Majesty's Catalina aircraft number so-and-so"..........
It might have been worse: he could have made it: "W.O.A.S. * When ordered to undertake a warlike operation in the air, failed to use his utmost endeavours"......... - and in theory have his man shot ! But of course, there was not the slightest suggestion of "LMF" in this case. Nevertheless, the man had been charged; some ass asked for a Court Martial; another ass granted it, and we were off.
Note * "When On Active Service" (ie in Wartime), Air Force Law provides much more severe penalties than in peace, up to: "Death, or such lesser penalty as a Court Martial may decide" (Note that: "Any two Officers sitting together may constitute a Court Martial" - the "Drumhead Court Martial" ?).
The facts were not in dispute and the defence could offer little beyond an apology and (later) a Plea in Mitigation. The Court retired to consider its verdict, and we Officers under Instruction went into our own huddle to decide ours.
We were unanimous for acquittal. We considered it no more than a practical joke which had gone wrong and the charge should never have been brought. The President returned and we told him so. Of course, this made no difference to the Court's verdict: "Guilty". Punishment? If he had to be punished at all, we opted for the minimum: "Reprimand". The Court went a step up: "Severe Reprimand".
It was water off a duck's back of course. He was a hostilities-only man like the rest of us, had reached the top of the NCO tree, and had no interest in a commission. It would soon be forgotten, and make no difference at all on his return to civil life.
Goodnight, all,
Danny42C
It'll be all the same in fifty years' time.
It was called by its aircrew the (blank) Flying Plank"
on account of its huge, long, rectangular wing, from under which our chap knew (but apparently the skipper didn't) that he could reach the engine control cables through an inspection panel over his position (out of sight of the pilots).
A couple of smart tugs, an engine which had been peacefully droning for hours suddenly bellowed, boost and rev needles swung wildly round the clock, then settled back. Justifiably alarmed by these harbingers of a "runaway prop", the Captain readily fell in with the F/E's advice to RTB. He put the ship about and they all went home in nice time for tea.
The Flight Engineer's satisfaction was short-lived. The Engineer Officer investigated, smelt a rat, collared the culprit and extracted a confession. Then the affair snowballed. In our opinion, a monumental blowing-up, and a few extra duties, would have amply met the case. But we suspected that there was more to it than met the eye. The Engineer Officer, old in the Service as most of them were, would know all the ways of making his displeasure keenly felt without invoking the Law.
But for some reason he "threw the book" at the offender. He charged him under the catch-all Section 40 of the Air Force Act: "W.O.A.S. * Conduct to the Prejudice of Good Order and Air Force Discipline in that he did, improperly and without authority, interfere with the engine control cables of His Majesty's Catalina aircraft number so-and-so"..........
It might have been worse: he could have made it: "W.O.A.S. * When ordered to undertake a warlike operation in the air, failed to use his utmost endeavours"......... - and in theory have his man shot ! But of course, there was not the slightest suggestion of "LMF" in this case. Nevertheless, the man had been charged; some ass asked for a Court Martial; another ass granted it, and we were off.
Note * "When On Active Service" (ie in Wartime), Air Force Law provides much more severe penalties than in peace, up to: "Death, or such lesser penalty as a Court Martial may decide" (Note that: "Any two Officers sitting together may constitute a Court Martial" - the "Drumhead Court Martial" ?).
The facts were not in dispute and the defence could offer little beyond an apology and (later) a Plea in Mitigation. The Court retired to consider its verdict, and we Officers under Instruction went into our own huddle to decide ours.
We were unanimous for acquittal. We considered it no more than a practical joke which had gone wrong and the charge should never have been brought. The President returned and we told him so. Of course, this made no difference to the Court's verdict: "Guilty". Punishment? If he had to be punished at all, we opted for the minimum: "Reprimand". The Court went a step up: "Severe Reprimand".
It was water off a duck's back of course. He was a hostilities-only man like the rest of us, had reached the top of the NCO tree, and had no interest in a commission. It would soon be forgotten, and make no difference at all on his return to civil life.
Goodnight, all,
Danny42C
It'll be all the same in fifty years' time.
Last edited by Danny42C; 8th Sep 2012 at 22:11. Reason: Format Text
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Neutral Enclaves in WW2.
Fareastdriver,
The Japs left Thailand (nee Siam) alone, too, IIRC. We respected Goa in all ways but one: we weren't supposed to overfly the territory. But as it was smack in the middle of the West coast, and everyone flying up and down and back from Ceylon to Bombay and beyond naturally navigated the easy way, the skies over Goa were seldom empty.
The Goans couldn't do much about it anyway. Post Independence, in 1961, the Indian army walked in (the "Three Day's War"), and that was that (they got the India General Service medal with the "Goa" Campaign clasp for it).
Danny.
The Japs left Thailand (nee Siam) alone, too, IIRC. We respected Goa in all ways but one: we weren't supposed to overfly the territory. But as it was smack in the middle of the West coast, and everyone flying up and down and back from Ceylon to Bombay and beyond naturally navigated the easy way, the skies over Goa were seldom empty.
The Goans couldn't do much about it anyway. Post Independence, in 1961, the Indian army walked in (the "Three Day's War"), and that was that (they got the India General Service medal with the "Goa" Campaign clasp for it).
Danny.
Last edited by Danny42C; 9th Sep 2012 at 15:01. Reason: Additional Material.
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Danny alarms his passengers and enjoys a Concert
Calibration Flights, far out in the Bay of Bengal, were boring and the mind tends to wander. Sometimes it wandered to the extent that you didn't watch your fuel gauges and let a tank run dry. The engine would cut, not to worry, just select a full tank, switch on the booster pump. In five or ten seconds fuel worked down the lines and the motor would come back to life.
But the man in the back, not expecting the cut any more than you had, would have had no idea why the engine had stopped. If he were of a nervous disposition (understandable in a single engined aircraft over shark-infested seas), he might not wait for his pilot's order to bale out, but be half-way over the side before you could yell "Get back in - it's all right!" Consensus was that a Vengeance would ditch badly, because of the shape. As far as I know, nobody ever tried it, the advice was to bale out and trust to your parachute, Mae West and inflatable dinghy (and if you're going to do that, the sooner you get out, the better).
Such episodes did not foster good Crew relations. In the Mess one day, P/O Crichton (Ag ) loudly declared (not entirely in jest): "Stupid bloody pilots let the tank run dry, and I get dysentery !" (To which I retorted: "We'll have you chucked out of the Union !") Luckily, no one actually "abandoned ship", for it would have left the pilot in an unenviable position.
He'd stay with his ex-crewman as long as his fuel allowed, of course, while calling for help on the R/T. There was an air-sea rescue launch in Madras, but if you were miles out to sea, it might take hours to get out to you. If the dinghy were not kept in sight the whole time, it might be impossible to find again.
Hopefully you might get a relief aircraft out there before you had to leave. A flying boat from Redhills would be ideal, as they had enormous endurance (I think 24 hours in a Catalina). There would be no point in being "faithful unto death"; that would just give the rescuers two emergencies to deal with instead of one.
One evening a bit of culture was laid on for us by way of entertainment. Normally this was non-existent, apart from the rare visit by an ENSA-style Concert Party (the TV comedy: "It ain't half hot, Mum" showed them to perfection). These affairs were toe-curlingly awful as a rule, but of course we all had to put on our best bib-and-tucker and turn out to show appreciation. After all, these people meant well, and were doing their best, even if, in most peoples' estimation, they ranked among the Horrors of War.
This time they had really gone upmarket. Somehow they'd assembled a full concert orchestra, and found a F/O Navigator who had been a virtuoso concert pianist. For venue, they'd secured the Banqueting Hall of the Governors of Madras. These old nabobs had done themselves proud in their day, the place was a mini Versailles. Needless to say, there was a full and appreciative audience. I heard the Grieg Piano Concerto No. 2 (?) for the first time there, and was very impressed with the whole programme (and the magnificent setting made it a memorable evening).
I was quite content to serve out the remaining months of my overseas three-year tour at Cholaveram. I would be going home in the autumn "trooping season". I'd done my "stint at the coal face" (I would never dive a Vengeance again); there was little more useful I could do out there now. What else could they possibly find for me in these last months?
And what would the future have in store for me when I did return to the UK? Even if the war in Europe was clearly on its last legs, our war out East looked good for years yet. Might I be sent back here after a month or two of leave in UK (for there might well be nobody left there to fight ?) "There's no discharge in the War" (Kipling: "Boots"). We were in for "the duration of hostilities". All was in the lap of the Gods.
But whichever way the cat jumped, I'd be on a troopship about October time.
(I never learn!)
'Night, all,
Danny42C
"Return, please!"......."Where to?"......."Back here, of course !"
But the man in the back, not expecting the cut any more than you had, would have had no idea why the engine had stopped. If he were of a nervous disposition (understandable in a single engined aircraft over shark-infested seas), he might not wait for his pilot's order to bale out, but be half-way over the side before you could yell "Get back in - it's all right!" Consensus was that a Vengeance would ditch badly, because of the shape. As far as I know, nobody ever tried it, the advice was to bale out and trust to your parachute, Mae West and inflatable dinghy (and if you're going to do that, the sooner you get out, the better).
Such episodes did not foster good Crew relations. In the Mess one day, P/O Crichton (Ag ) loudly declared (not entirely in jest): "Stupid bloody pilots let the tank run dry, and I get dysentery !" (To which I retorted: "We'll have you chucked out of the Union !") Luckily, no one actually "abandoned ship", for it would have left the pilot in an unenviable position.
He'd stay with his ex-crewman as long as his fuel allowed, of course, while calling for help on the R/T. There was an air-sea rescue launch in Madras, but if you were miles out to sea, it might take hours to get out to you. If the dinghy were not kept in sight the whole time, it might be impossible to find again.
Hopefully you might get a relief aircraft out there before you had to leave. A flying boat from Redhills would be ideal, as they had enormous endurance (I think 24 hours in a Catalina). There would be no point in being "faithful unto death"; that would just give the rescuers two emergencies to deal with instead of one.
One evening a bit of culture was laid on for us by way of entertainment. Normally this was non-existent, apart from the rare visit by an ENSA-style Concert Party (the TV comedy: "It ain't half hot, Mum" showed them to perfection). These affairs were toe-curlingly awful as a rule, but of course we all had to put on our best bib-and-tucker and turn out to show appreciation. After all, these people meant well, and were doing their best, even if, in most peoples' estimation, they ranked among the Horrors of War.
This time they had really gone upmarket. Somehow they'd assembled a full concert orchestra, and found a F/O Navigator who had been a virtuoso concert pianist. For venue, they'd secured the Banqueting Hall of the Governors of Madras. These old nabobs had done themselves proud in their day, the place was a mini Versailles. Needless to say, there was a full and appreciative audience. I heard the Grieg Piano Concerto No. 2 (?) for the first time there, and was very impressed with the whole programme (and the magnificent setting made it a memorable evening).
I was quite content to serve out the remaining months of my overseas three-year tour at Cholaveram. I would be going home in the autumn "trooping season". I'd done my "stint at the coal face" (I would never dive a Vengeance again); there was little more useful I could do out there now. What else could they possibly find for me in these last months?
And what would the future have in store for me when I did return to the UK? Even if the war in Europe was clearly on its last legs, our war out East looked good for years yet. Might I be sent back here after a month or two of leave in UK (for there might well be nobody left there to fight ?) "There's no discharge in the War" (Kipling: "Boots"). We were in for "the duration of hostilities". All was in the lap of the Gods.
But whichever way the cat jumped, I'd be on a troopship about October time.
(I never learn!)
'Night, all,
Danny42C
"Return, please!"......."Where to?"......."Back here, of course !"
Last edited by Danny42C; 18th Apr 2016 at 11:31. Reason: Correction.
We respected Goa in all ways but one: we weren't supposed to overfly the territory.
And it wasn't until very many years later that we discovered that the Calcutta Light Horse also respected Goa in all ways but one .....
Danny - I must also say how enormously I enjoy your reminiscences as a truly worthy successor to Regle, Cliff, et al - including, if I may, special thanks good wishes to Fred. Just to see your moniker on the list of new posts is enough to bring a smile to my face, even before I open up your latest offering - thank you so much - not least for your "tailpieces"!
Jack
And it wasn't until very many years later that we discovered that the Calcutta Light Horse also respected Goa in all ways but one .....
Danny - I must also say how enormously I enjoy your reminiscences as a truly worthy successor to Regle, Cliff, et al - including, if I may, special thanks good wishes to Fred. Just to see your moniker on the list of new posts is enough to bring a smile to my face, even before I open up your latest offering - thank you so much - not least for your "tailpieces"!
Jack
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Jack,
Thank you so much for your encouraging words, it helps to keep me going. You'll be pleased to know that there's still a lot more to come, but it would be good to hear from the other "Old Contemptibles" as well, wouldn't it ?
Wiki tells the whole story of the end of Portugese Goa (at great length). (I think there were about 30-40 killed on each side in the "war").
Danny.
Thank you so much for your encouraging words, it helps to keep me going. You'll be pleased to know that there's still a lot more to come, but it would be good to hear from the other "Old Contemptibles" as well, wouldn't it ?
Wiki tells the whole story of the end of Portugese Goa (at great length). (I think there were about 30-40 killed on each side in the "war").
Danny.
You'll be pleased to know that there's still a lot more to come .....
but it would be good to hear from the other "Old Contemptibles" as well, wouldn't it ? .....
Jack
but it would be good to hear from the other "Old Contemptibles" as well, wouldn't it ? .....
Jack
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Danny and "The Camel Drivers Recruiting Establishment"
(Apocryphal story: supposed to have been the address on a letter sent to the C.D.R.E. from a job applicant - someone had been pulling his leg - it should have been: "The Chemical Defence Research Establishment" ! - although, strangely enough, a camel does appear later in the story).
The signal * came in March: "Posted to No. 1340 (Special Duty) Flight, Cannanore, with immediate effect, to command with acting rank of Flight Lieutenant". The acting rank wouldn't make much difference, I was due for my War Substantive (time) promotion in a few weeks anyway, but the rest sounded nice. I had to look up Cannanore on the map; no one had ever heard of the place, or had any idea of what 1340 Flight did. One of (now) my Vengeances flew in to pick me up and fly me over to take up my first (and last !) Command in the RAF.
Note *: The greater part of our inter-unit communication was by c/w radio, in cipher if deemed necessary. Every unit would have its own Signals section. British India had a very comprehensive telegraph network, but of course if you were "out in the bundoo", you wouldn't have any connection. In all the larger towns, there would be "local" telephones, but I don't know how much of a "trunk" service was available. Precious little, would be my guess. Post was slow, but the stuff mostly got through in the end. Personal mail from and to home was mostly by "Airletter" (embossed As4 stamp, about 4d in old money).
We would fly right across South India from the Coromandel to the Malabar coasts (how these old colonial names tug at the memory). I said farewell to Freddie and the Wing Commander. One day I would meet the Wingco again, years later and thousands of miles away, but that is a story for another time.
We landed on what was in effect the private airstrip of "The Chemical Defence Research Establishment", which was an offshoot of that Government research facility of the same name which still operates at Porton Down.
This wartime susidiary had been set up at Cannanore, on the Malabar coast of India, about 200 miles south of Goa and midway between Mangalore and Calicut. Its purpose was to develop, under tropical conditions, defences against poison gases. These might well be used against our troops in Burma if the Japanese armies were facing defeat. After all, they were known to have used gas in China (phosgene, I think).
I am still not entirely clear about the "organisational tree" of the C.D.R.E. in India in my time. Today I believe it is an agency of the MOD, but during the war I seem to remember that the Ministry of Supply had a hand in it.
Operational control was vested in the Royal Engineers, in the person of a fatherly old (from our youthful standpoint) Colonel Philips as the C.O. He had a most impressive handle to his name - you don't see "DSO, MC, Ph.D, B.Sc." every day ! (of course, his gallantry awards dated from WW1: the academic distinctions from the inter-war years). He was a research scientist and the Cannanore Mess was full of them, Dr. this and Dr. that, as well as a number of medical and veterinary officers who looked after our human and animal guinea-pigs.
After the war, I ran across one of these back-room boys, a leather chemist, in London. His name escapes me, but he did me a very good turn. He'd tried ice skating, didn't like it much, (and I must admit that the early days are apt to be rather bruising and humiliating !). He offered to sell me his (as new) boots and skates dirt cheap, we were the same shoe size, I decided to "give it a whirl", and so started on an ideal winter pastime which kept me fit for years after the war.
The Colonel had a RAF Liaison Officer, Wing Commander Edmondes, in his late thirties, a pre-war regular pilot and Armaments Specialist.* He co-ordinated the details of their trials with us. He was directly responsible to AHQ Delhi, and outside the control of 225 Group, so in no way my Commanding Officer, but very useful to us. He (and the CDRE generally) seemed to enjoy a very high priority in Delhi, and they were able to get anything they wanted for the asking.
Note *: Pre-war, many specialist tasks in the RAF (Armaments, Photography, Engineering, etc) were performed by regular Pilots on tours of ground duty - (hence "General Duties" Branch ?) Some were seconded to University to get the essential qualifications. (A Frank Whittle read Engineering at Cambridge; the World got the jet engine).
As the war is so long ago, perhaps I should explain that poison gases are used not only as vapours, which caused such terrible injuries in WW1 (who can forget that famous painting of the "crocodile" of blinded Tommies ?), but also in heavy liquid form. Droplets on the skin are highly caustic, sprayed on the ground they are persistent and can deny access to an area (for a time) almost as well as land mines.
Against vapours, respirators of some sort are the only defence (in UK in the early days of the war everyone had to carry round their own "gas-mask" in its little square cardboard box; troops - and Civil Defence - had a superior job in a much bulkier canvas satchel, which could also accommodate a packet of sandwiches and a small Thermos flask).
But for liquids, "Anti-Gas Capes" were Service issue kit. For those without them who might have been sprayed, RAF Stations had "Decontamination Centres", where you could strip to the buff, have a good shower to wash the stuff off ASAP (your contaminated clothing would have to be destroyed - hopefully there was plenty more in Stores !) Civilians were on their own, official advice was to wash the stuff off with copious quantities of water
Never used, to my knowledge, these Centres lasted long into the sixties, for I was Officer in Charge of one of them then. You might think that this would be a cushy Subsidiary Duty - far from it ! Mine was completely disused except for a large store of steel helmets and camouflage netting. Rarely could I get a cleaning party from the SWO to dust the place out, but for some reason the Station Commander almost always included it on his weekly rounds.
It was always in scruff order, but I could never be sure of the reception I might get. One week I might be complimented on it, the next get a rocket for it, the place would be in exactly the same condition each time. Luckily, I was an old soldier by then, or I might have been psychologically harmed by this Pavlovian treatment. (Station Commanders come, and Station Commanders go, but the money comes into the Bank every month just the same).
And now back to Cannanore !
Goodnight once again,
Danny42C.
Another day, another dollar.
The signal * came in March: "Posted to No. 1340 (Special Duty) Flight, Cannanore, with immediate effect, to command with acting rank of Flight Lieutenant". The acting rank wouldn't make much difference, I was due for my War Substantive (time) promotion in a few weeks anyway, but the rest sounded nice. I had to look up Cannanore on the map; no one had ever heard of the place, or had any idea of what 1340 Flight did. One of (now) my Vengeances flew in to pick me up and fly me over to take up my first (and last !) Command in the RAF.
Note *: The greater part of our inter-unit communication was by c/w radio, in cipher if deemed necessary. Every unit would have its own Signals section. British India had a very comprehensive telegraph network, but of course if you were "out in the bundoo", you wouldn't have any connection. In all the larger towns, there would be "local" telephones, but I don't know how much of a "trunk" service was available. Precious little, would be my guess. Post was slow, but the stuff mostly got through in the end. Personal mail from and to home was mostly by "Airletter" (embossed As4 stamp, about 4d in old money).
We would fly right across South India from the Coromandel to the Malabar coasts (how these old colonial names tug at the memory). I said farewell to Freddie and the Wing Commander. One day I would meet the Wingco again, years later and thousands of miles away, but that is a story for another time.
We landed on what was in effect the private airstrip of "The Chemical Defence Research Establishment", which was an offshoot of that Government research facility of the same name which still operates at Porton Down.
This wartime susidiary had been set up at Cannanore, on the Malabar coast of India, about 200 miles south of Goa and midway between Mangalore and Calicut. Its purpose was to develop, under tropical conditions, defences against poison gases. These might well be used against our troops in Burma if the Japanese armies were facing defeat. After all, they were known to have used gas in China (phosgene, I think).
I am still not entirely clear about the "organisational tree" of the C.D.R.E. in India in my time. Today I believe it is an agency of the MOD, but during the war I seem to remember that the Ministry of Supply had a hand in it.
Operational control was vested in the Royal Engineers, in the person of a fatherly old (from our youthful standpoint) Colonel Philips as the C.O. He had a most impressive handle to his name - you don't see "DSO, MC, Ph.D, B.Sc." every day ! (of course, his gallantry awards dated from WW1: the academic distinctions from the inter-war years). He was a research scientist and the Cannanore Mess was full of them, Dr. this and Dr. that, as well as a number of medical and veterinary officers who looked after our human and animal guinea-pigs.
After the war, I ran across one of these back-room boys, a leather chemist, in London. His name escapes me, but he did me a very good turn. He'd tried ice skating, didn't like it much, (and I must admit that the early days are apt to be rather bruising and humiliating !). He offered to sell me his (as new) boots and skates dirt cheap, we were the same shoe size, I decided to "give it a whirl", and so started on an ideal winter pastime which kept me fit for years after the war.
The Colonel had a RAF Liaison Officer, Wing Commander Edmondes, in his late thirties, a pre-war regular pilot and Armaments Specialist.* He co-ordinated the details of their trials with us. He was directly responsible to AHQ Delhi, and outside the control of 225 Group, so in no way my Commanding Officer, but very useful to us. He (and the CDRE generally) seemed to enjoy a very high priority in Delhi, and they were able to get anything they wanted for the asking.
Note *: Pre-war, many specialist tasks in the RAF (Armaments, Photography, Engineering, etc) were performed by regular Pilots on tours of ground duty - (hence "General Duties" Branch ?) Some were seconded to University to get the essential qualifications. (A Frank Whittle read Engineering at Cambridge; the World got the jet engine).
As the war is so long ago, perhaps I should explain that poison gases are used not only as vapours, which caused such terrible injuries in WW1 (who can forget that famous painting of the "crocodile" of blinded Tommies ?), but also in heavy liquid form. Droplets on the skin are highly caustic, sprayed on the ground they are persistent and can deny access to an area (for a time) almost as well as land mines.
Against vapours, respirators of some sort are the only defence (in UK in the early days of the war everyone had to carry round their own "gas-mask" in its little square cardboard box; troops - and Civil Defence - had a superior job in a much bulkier canvas satchel, which could also accommodate a packet of sandwiches and a small Thermos flask).
But for liquids, "Anti-Gas Capes" were Service issue kit. For those without them who might have been sprayed, RAF Stations had "Decontamination Centres", where you could strip to the buff, have a good shower to wash the stuff off ASAP (your contaminated clothing would have to be destroyed - hopefully there was plenty more in Stores !) Civilians were on their own, official advice was to wash the stuff off with copious quantities of water
Never used, to my knowledge, these Centres lasted long into the sixties, for I was Officer in Charge of one of them then. You might think that this would be a cushy Subsidiary Duty - far from it ! Mine was completely disused except for a large store of steel helmets and camouflage netting. Rarely could I get a cleaning party from the SWO to dust the place out, but for some reason the Station Commander almost always included it on his weekly rounds.
It was always in scruff order, but I could never be sure of the reception I might get. One week I might be complimented on it, the next get a rocket for it, the place would be in exactly the same condition each time. Luckily, I was an old soldier by then, or I might have been psychologically harmed by this Pavlovian treatment. (Station Commanders come, and Station Commanders go, but the money comes into the Bank every month just the same).
And now back to Cannanore !
Goodnight once again,
Danny42C.
Another day, another dollar.
Last edited by Danny42C; 12th Jan 2015 at 18:48. Reason: Spelling !
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Please help fredjhh
URGENT
To any PPRuner who reads this.
Have had an e-mail (141700 A, but I've only just logged-on) from Fred, he is stuck, unable to Post as our Thread tells him that his pen-name and password are wrong, he has asked me to help.
I've told him I will try to help, but I've little skill at this game. I've tried to cc my e-mail to "PPRuNe Pop" (and intended to PM him, as I thought he was the Moderator) but no joy with that name.
Rally round, chaps, please,
Danny42C
To any PPRuner who reads this.
Have had an e-mail (141700 A, but I've only just logged-on) from Fred, he is stuck, unable to Post as our Thread tells him that his pen-name and password are wrong, he has asked me to help.
I've told him I will try to help, but I've little skill at this game. I've tried to cc my e-mail to "PPRuNe Pop" (and intended to PM him, as I thought he was the Moderator) but no joy with that name.
Rally round, chaps, please,
Danny42C
Last edited by Danny42C; 15th Sep 2012 at 01:04.
Hi Danny. First apologies for going AWOL from the thread. I throw myself on the mercy of the court. Second, I've pm'd Pprune Pop, requesting he uses his "special powers" to get Regle back on board. I'll pm you with any news, unless of course Pop or Reg himself update us on thread.
So now you have your own command, and still a JO! A lesson for the modern RAF perhaps, where Flight Lieutenants do not command flights, nor Squadron Leaders squadrons, Wing Commanders wings, Group Captains....well you get the drift. The purpose of the Flight is also a sharp reminder of the weapons of mass destruction so rarely mentioned in WW2 history, yet so preoccupied everyone's fears at the time, ie chemical and biological agents. We were ready to deploy both on a large scale should the invasion of Britain have happened. The Japanese did of course resort to it, and refined its use by using it on POWs (mainly Chinese). I have no doubt they would also have used it if they had in turn suffered invasion, so you were embarked on vital work. The Cape Anti-Gas was still around when I was in the CCF, doubling as a ground sheet and a rain cape by then. Evidently when I was very young I carried my packed lunch to School in an ex gas mask case, but I must have been very young as I do not remember doing so. What was for sure was that it would have once been carried everywhere one went containing the gas mask that had to be donned the moment the words "gas, gas, gas" or the sound of a "footballer's" rattle were heard. All now as remote as the concept of "Duck and Cover" of course...
Oops, just spotted my mistake, I should have said Fred not Reg of course, apologies!
So now you have your own command, and still a JO! A lesson for the modern RAF perhaps, where Flight Lieutenants do not command flights, nor Squadron Leaders squadrons, Wing Commanders wings, Group Captains....well you get the drift. The purpose of the Flight is also a sharp reminder of the weapons of mass destruction so rarely mentioned in WW2 history, yet so preoccupied everyone's fears at the time, ie chemical and biological agents. We were ready to deploy both on a large scale should the invasion of Britain have happened. The Japanese did of course resort to it, and refined its use by using it on POWs (mainly Chinese). I have no doubt they would also have used it if they had in turn suffered invasion, so you were embarked on vital work. The Cape Anti-Gas was still around when I was in the CCF, doubling as a ground sheet and a rain cape by then. Evidently when I was very young I carried my packed lunch to School in an ex gas mask case, but I must have been very young as I do not remember doing so. What was for sure was that it would have once been carried everywhere one went containing the gas mask that had to be donned the moment the words "gas, gas, gas" or the sound of a "footballer's" rattle were heard. All now as remote as the concept of "Duck and Cover" of course...
Oops, just spotted my mistake, I should have said Fred not Reg of course, apologies!
Last edited by Chugalug2; 15th Sep 2012 at 11:31.
sua cuique voluptas
One quick thing to check about unrecognised username/password combinations is that fredjhh hasn't fallen foul of the CapsLock syndrome......
Ripline
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